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1

Monday, September 5th 2011, 9:59am

Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

I like working on theoretically "optimum" designs. This is the one that I have taken the time to design so far (warning: untested!).

Mark 1-O EE BEA* Perfect-Breeder "Sirus"


I was looking at the optimum way to breed Uranium with as little Uranium as possible for input. This was the result. Using only one (1!) Uranium, it breeds four Uranium from it. It can be tweaked to cool one more per cycle (negative breeder - add an extra cooler in the blank spot) or down as far as you'd like (positive breeder - just randomly remove coolers). It must be heated to at least 3000 heat to break even, 6000 heat is optimum however as it cycles through all four in a cycle - if you want to micromanage run it at 9000+ and change them halfway through. Unfortunately it has the worst possible efficiency rating, so it is not really useful in the real world.

Quoted from "Design"


TDCTCC
DUD.CT
CDCTCC
TCCCCT
CCTCCC
CTCCTC

T = Integrated Heat Dispenser
C = Cooling Cell
D = Depleted Isotope Cell
U = Uranium Cell

To start, put an additional uranium call in the blank space, and/or remove one or more of the dispensers. It must be submerged fully in water to operate however!


Quoted from "Calculations"


All heat gain goes directly to the reactor hull, so that's all good - no overloading components here! Every heat dispenser is connected to at max four cooling cells, and every cell is connected to at least one dispenser, so it can distribute heat properly. This means that it is a simple heat gain/heat loss equation.

heat loss = Reactor Loss + Chamber Loss * # Chambers + # Water Blocks + # Cooling Cells = 1 + 2*6 + 20 + 21 = 54
heat gain = Uranium Gain * # Pulses + Depleted Gain = 10*5 + 4 = 54



Can someone double-check my calculations on this?

I additionally propose a new classification: Breeder efficiency - how many NET uranium (out - in) a reactor produces on average from one piece input at 9000+ degrees. Note that the values as they stand currently correspond to <1, >=1, >=2, >=3, and 4 adjacent isotopes per uranium, respectively. Unfortunately the code does not increase chances beyond 9000 heat currently, so there is no point in making uber-hot reactors.

BEE: <1
BED: 1 - <3
BEC: 3 - <5
BEB: 5 - <7
BEA: 7 (thoeretical maximum: Uranium surrounded by 4 depleted Uranium: 1 in / cycle -> (4 neighbors) * (2 out / neighbor/ cycle) = 8 - 1 uranium / cycle = 7 uranium / cycle)

2

Monday, September 5th 2011, 11:01am

Afaik the maximum would be 4? Diagonal adjacent doesn't count.
Greetz,
Alblaka

FourFire

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3

Monday, September 5th 2011, 1:01pm

RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

The code does not increase chances beyond 9000 heat.


Bugger it! D: Can the code please be changed?
I had great plans for 18000 heat reactors :D

4

Monday, September 5th 2011, 1:42pm

RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

Bugger it! D: Can the code please be changed?
I had great plans for 18000 heat reactors :D
Just a hint:

Quoted

2. Reactor Plating
Reactor Plating serves multiple functions:
It can store 10000 heat and will (though 10 times slower then a coolant cell), cool itself down as well.
More important, it can transport heat to adjacent components. If a reactor plating is heated up by something, it will instantly divert the heat among all surrounding coolant systems. Even to other platings (which will again divert the heat, however, NOT to other platings anymore).
Additionally, each piece of plating will increase the Reactor Hull's integrity, causing it to to take more heat before melting.
Insert 8 plates into the Reactor, bam, it can tolerate 18000 heat.

5

Monday, September 5th 2011, 1:44pm

RE: RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

Bugger it! D: Can the code please be changed?
I had great plans for 18000 heat reactors :D
Just a hint:

Quoted

2. Reactor Plating
Reactor Plating serves multiple functions:
It can store 10000 heat and will (though 10 times slower then a coolant cell), cool itself down as well.
More important, it can transport heat to adjacent components. If a reactor plating is heated up by something, it will instantly divert the heat among all surrounding coolant systems. Even to other platings (which will again divert the heat, however, NOT to other platings anymore).
Additionally, each piece of plating will increase the Reactor Hull's integrity, causing it to to take more heat before melting.
Insert 8 plates into the Reactor, bam, it can tolerate 18000 heat.


WhyTF do you think plating gives 1000 hull durability to the reactor? It solely awards 250 (in 1.0)
Greetz,
Alblaka

6

Monday, September 5th 2011, 1:46pm

RE: RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

Bugger it! D: Can the code please be changed?
I had great plans for 18000 heat reactors :D
Just a hint:

Quoted

2. Reactor Plating
Reactor Plating serves multiple functions:
It can store 10000 heat and will (though 10 times slower then a coolant cell), cool itself down as well.
More important, it can transport heat to adjacent components. If a reactor plating is heated up by something, it will instantly divert the heat among all surrounding coolant systems. Even to other platings (which will again divert the heat, however, NOT to other platings anymore).
Additionally, each piece of plating will increase the Reactor Hull's integrity, causing it to to take more heat before melting.
Insert 8 plates into the Reactor, bam, it can tolerate 18000 heat.


Actually, The Reactor's heat capacity is determined by this

Base of 10,000 + 1,000*Chambers + 100*Plating

So you would have a capacity of 16000 with a fully upgraded reactor by default, and would need 20 plating to have the reactor explode exactly when you hit 18,000.
Also, It starts setting things on fire at 45% of capacity, and starts melting things to lava at 85% of capacity.

Just as a warning XD

7

Monday, September 5th 2011, 2:42pm

RE: RE: RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

WhyTF do you think plating gives 1000 hull durability to the reactor? It solely awards 250 (in 1.0)
Okay, so it doesn't give 1000 durability. With 6 reactor chambers, you still only need 8 plating in 1.0 to get 18000 durability, so my post can be said to be 100% accurate for 1.0 :3

8

Monday, September 5th 2011, 3:17pm

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

WhyTF do you think plating gives 1000 hull durability to the reactor? It solely awards 250 (in 1.0)
Okay, so it doesn't give 1000 durability. With 6 reactor chambers, you still only need 8 plating in 1.0 to get 18000 durability, so my post can be said to be 100% accurate for 1.0 :3


Wrong.

(This may not be the right section)
-Is heat an integer? Is heat for components/hull stored as an integer, meaning that you cannot have half of a heat unit? if you can, Most of my questions are not neccisary.

-How does plate heat splitting work? I assume it cannot split heat to the tile it got the heat from, but I assume the heat can be tranfered between two plates in the case of two heat pulses going on oppisite directions. Also, it is unclear on how it splits uneven amounts of heat, such as 3 heat to 2 tiles. Does each tile get 1 heat, and one is stored in the plating? Do they get 2 heat, creating 1 extra heat magically? Does it do either, but use stored heat to equalize it?

-How much does plating increase hull durability by? Also, Unless you had orphaned urainium cells, or a HD, I see no way heat would find it's way to the hull. Do platings interact with the hull to cause this? Does external cooling do nothing unless the hull has heat stored, or does it start to apply to the components in that case?

-How long does it take to refine a almost depleated uranium fuel cell, in the case of 0 heat? I know it is 2x as fast in the case of 3k heat, and 4x as fast for 6k, and 8x as fast for 9k. (would higher amounts be possible if you have plating as well, which I think increase the threshhold for something, I assume increases the threshhold for explosions, but does it also increase the threshholds for melting/radiation? I am not sure about this either.

How would you design a reactor that heats up, but does not melt any components without using a HD? I am pretty sure that unless some magic occurs for plate conduction/other interaction, this is impossible to do. I know that if you give a cooling cell exactly 2 heat per tick, it will melt EXACTly at the moment the reactor deactivates, unless I missed part of the model, such as how heat gets to the hull without a HD or orphaned reactor.


-Yes, heat is an integer. No decimals here.

-The Plating will only distribute "fair" heat. If you got 2 heat but 3 connected takers, it will store the 2 heat on itself. In the next hit, it will subtract 1 from it's own heat to increase the "received" heat to 3, then equally distribute 1 heat to each taker.

-Each chamber provides 1000 additional "hp", each piece of plating 100. Probably need to increase that. To determine "heat effects", there is a ratio calculated, based on currentHeat/maxHeat, where maxHeat = 10000(Reactor)+1000*chambers+100*Plating. A result of 1.00 or higher is meltdown. 0.85 is lava spawn, etcetc First effects start by 0.45

-In case of 0 heat, it should take 80000 ticks, thus "8 cycles". I strongly recommend setting up breed reactors on heat 6500 with 2 uranium cells surroundung 1 breeder cell.

-Start the reactor, then, after a few ticks, switch all coolant cells against fresh ones :3 But ye, per design it's near impossible not to use HD's... yet.

9

Monday, September 5th 2011, 3:35pm

Afaik the maximum would be 4? Diagonal adjacent doesn't count.


Yes - but I added the heat speed-up factor and forgot to explicitly state it... Normally it takes (~)40k pulses to replenish uranium - 3000+ heat it takes ~20k, 6000+ heat it takes ~10k, and 9000+ it takes ~5k. The maximum is one with four neighbours at 9000+ heat, or 4 neighbours * (10k ticks in a cell / 5k ticks to replenish a cell) - 1 original cell = 4*2 - 1 = 7

Bugger it! D: Can the code please be changed?
I had great plans for 18000 heat reactors :D
Just a hint:

Quoted

2. Reactor Plating
Reactor Plating serves multiple functions:
It can store 10000 heat and will (though 10 times slower then a coolant cell), cool itself down as well.
More important, it can transport heat to adjacent components. If a reactor plating is heated up by something, it will instantly divert the heat among all surrounding coolant systems. Even to other platings (which will again divert the heat, however, NOT to other platings anymore).
Additionally, each piece of plating will increase the Reactor Hull's integrity, causing it to to take more heat before melting.
Insert 8 plates into the Reactor, bam, it can tolerate 18000 heat.


You can run it hotter than 9000, it just won't speed up the process of making more uranium currently, so there is no point. That's been clarified in my original post.

10

Monday, September 5th 2011, 8:54pm

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

Wrong.
I just stated that it applies to 1.00. Alblaka said in THIS VERY THREAD that in 1.00, the plating will provide an additional 250 hull integrity.

11

Monday, September 5th 2011, 9:03pm

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Theoretical Reactor Design(s)

Wrong.
I just stated that it applies to 1.00. Alblaka said in THIS VERY THREAD that in 1.00, the plating will provide an additional 250 hull integrity.


Oh, I see now, I got ninja-ed by Alblaka. No wonder I'm so confused...

12

Monday, September 5th 2011, 10:20pm

you guys all seem to forget, that you need to keep the heat on the hull for a perfect breeder. just having the same cooling as heat generation won't help you.

For example: i produce (just a random number) 50 heat, cool down 25 via hull and place 25 coolant cells with adjectant heat dispersers: this AINT a perfect breeder. why? Well the heat dispersers, each will take 25 heat of the hull each tick, dispersing a part of it to neighbour coolant cells etc. sure you just erase 50 heat each tick, but you take more off the hull. You do this as long as you have more heat outside as the dispersers are damaged.

If you want to make that breeder from above perfect you have to do the following: place only 1 heat disperser into the breeder somewhere not connected to the cells. this will exactly make a perfect breeder, but you have to replace the damaged disperser with a new one. For example: if you run your breeder at 6000 heat you will have to replace the disperser every 240 seconds.

How do i cool it down then???

make a 2nd reactor for cooling use: place up to 6 heat dispersers with each 4 coolant cells in, and put the damaged heat disperser in, it will regenrate faster then the new one in the breeder is damaged (giving off 25 heat to hull 6 heat to nearby coolants).

this is IMHO the only way to make a perfect breeder.

FourFire

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13

Tuesday, September 6th 2011, 12:20pm

About Reactor heat mechanics

The way I understand it is that a heat DC will equalize heat between all surrounding elements, itself AND the hull so that if (fex.) 20000 heat exists with a base reactor hull 1 DC and two connected Coolant cells at the same time as two heat is produced (and not cooled externally) then the DC will attempt to produce the following result:
hull heat = 5000 DC = 5000 2x CC = 2x 5000 it will try to balance the heat percentage wise between all available cooling elements and the reactor however you are suggesting that the DC would attempt to Melt the two CC and try to put the hull heat at 0... this seems unlogical to me and I refuse to believe it unless albalka re writes the TUT on nuclear engineering to accept your way of working.
this means that you must calculate the percentage (Important: if it is at 85% or over then it will not work) of heat your optimum breeding level will be at (in this case it stops at 9000) then see how much heat will need to be sunk into the reactor to achieve this percentage (heat storage of reactor + all elements) then find the closest 500 and fill it in with lava buckets for 2000+ and water buckets for 500 - to regulate your heat to this level


And GUYS! : Stop arguing about reactor plating yes the increase of HP was the point of my statement I was going to fill a breeder with plating and therefore increase the HP of it allowing it to have a higher max heat before reaching the critical 85% heat which is lava spawn / melting of reactor chambers.
fire spawn could theoretically be avoided by having a floating reactor 2 blocks away from any surface (use redpower self supported cables for the redstone cutoff)
no surface to be on = no fire

I am glad to hear the reactor plating will be upgraded to 250 hp TBH that is the only reason I use plating in reactors the cooling effect sucks and it messes up perfect breeders

14

Tuesday, September 6th 2011, 3:32pm

i never said anything about the dispersers wanting to melt anything next to them. i wrote, that they will take loads of heat from the reactor hull.

Sure you can make a perfect breeder, by damaging all items inside to the desired grade. but have fun with this. well it wont be hard when we get the detector item, to regulate the heat to a certain level. But you will need each item (for example to run it at 6000 heat) to take up 6000 heat. which is hard to achieve without a detector.

15

Tuesday, September 6th 2011, 6:34pm

Well, you can estimate an approximate level by looking at the bar. 6000 heat means 40% durability cooling elements, which is slightly below half durability. I mean, it's imprecise, but +/- 500 heat doesn't really matter when you're aiming for 6000/10000 heat.

Also, to make sure you get the 40% right, you can simply take a tool with a known amount of uses (like a drill with 150 uses) and use up exactly 60% of its energy reserve. For a drill, that would be 90 uses. The remaining bar is what you should compare the state of your cooling elements to.

16

Tuesday, September 6th 2011, 8:21pm

what i want to show you is the following: till we get the detector block, heating a fully filled breeder to a certain amount of heat will require a lot of time and adjusting. and you have to redo this every time you restart your breeder.
If you use my version, you can just fill 3 buckets of lava in, wait 5 seconds to be above 6k and then hit the disperser in. so its like: a 2nd reactor for cooling, or a shitload of time to adjust all the stuff to a certain heat level. your choice.

at the moment we get the detector block, all problems solved.

17

Wednesday, September 7th 2011, 4:17am

Well a reactor with two columns of stacked ice and everything else uranium cells works, might be a way to cheese buildcraft into getting an ice maker... that would be very nice.

Because everything I connect to the reactor blows up due to power overload, up to and including a mass fabricator, I don't really have a measurement on the reactor's power yet.

Okay it blows high energy stuff up after 26 cells and/or 505 current; totally safe as far as the reactor goes as long as ice is in the reactor, and if automated ice/snow farming works it's a golden reactor design to build, through it might need to be scaled down in terms of uranium so that it can easily power an MFSU.

ArashiDragon

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18

Wednesday, September 7th 2011, 4:38am

Well a reactor with two columns of stacked ice and everything else uranium cells works, might be a way to cheese buildcraft into getting an ice maker... that would be very nice.

Because everything I connect to the reactor blows up due to power overload, up to and including a mass fabricator, I don't really have a measurement on the reactor's power yet.

Okay it blows high energy stuff up after 26 cells and/or 505 current; totally safe as far as the reactor goes as long as ice is in the reactor, and if automated ice/snow farming works it's a golden reactor design to build, through it might need to be scaled down in terms of uranium so that it can easily power an MFSU.


Why not put an HV transformer between the reactor and your MFSU?

It sounds like your reactor is producing EV voltage.. so connecting it to a HV transformer, then from there to your equipment should fix it. (unless I'm just being dense about how some things work, if that's the case, please ignore me while I go back to IndustrialCraft² school.)

19

Wednesday, September 7th 2011, 5:04am

That should work, there's a problem where you have to connect to the reactor core itself with pipes to insert ice, but that I'd hope would be fixed soon.

It should work, but I don't think Alblaka expected a reactor to output that much and need that to happen. Too tired to think about it.

20

Wednesday, September 7th 2011, 8:03am

i managed build reaktor with 1200EU/t (54uranium cells) and connect it to MFSU. yo just need split it to multiple MFSU. so connect cable from reactor into three MFSU and you are fine. just be sure that length of the cable is same for every MFSU to equaly split current.

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