Whenever I see your avatar out of the corner of my eye, Pantheis, I always think it is a bird with a person's head on it at first. Then I actually look at it and realize the bird body is just a glove. That disappoints me a little bit.
Posts by Veoulux
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Wow, that was fast, I was thinking a mod as big as IC2 would take longer to update compared to some of the smaller ones I've seen. Good job guys.
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Yeah, if you keep it all under the shadows you are going to get people like Kane who just get frustrated at it and explode. People are actually being smart and helpful here, hopefully together we can come up with some more options for Alblaka to consider.
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Edit: Also if you think ic2 Public relations its bad, then you don't really bother about RedPower, she has been silent since a while ago and you don't hear people bitching about it too much. (No i don't give a crap that RP almost never have bugs, im just talking about the PR side)
Just had to reply here to clarify, people were bitching back and forth for at least 3 pages recently on the Redpower MC forum thread about the same stuff as here. Then the mods went through, locked the thread, deleted several pages of both sides arguing, and then reopened it. I suspect this happens frequently, and I suspect part of the reason people are getting so frustrated is because no one can even discuss it civilly.
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I am wondering how making it open source would make things difficult. I understand that Alblaka is reluctant to do that because he is attached to the mod, since he has put so much work into it. That is fine and not what I am questioning here. Some people here seem to think there are technical drawbacks to making it opensource. I am genuinely curious, what are the drawbacks? What could or will happen to make it a bad thing, and how can we fix said issues? Saying it's bad doesn't help. Saying it's bad because of X reason, and we can do Y thing to fix it is awesome.
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But this is already in place atm with the currently selected team. And no, I don't think that name list should be expanded, mostly due to how hard it would be to keep base with every single new developer. While some may think that being a 'cool IC2 dev' would be a fun opportunity, I don't think that those people grasp the responsibility that comes with that title. And while there are those with the good intentions of trying to bugfix IC2, I don't think that they would limit themselves to just that once they can keep submitting code and such to be implemented...
Unfortunately, no, this is not really in place. There isn't a good way that I am aware of for someone to look at the code, fix bugs in a decent way, and then submit those changes to the dev team. If people tried using the current system to do what something like a jenkins system can do, then you are correct, the dev team wouldn't get anything done because they would have to manually approve and reintegrate any fixes. I still don't know that you are grasping how these systems actually work. The current dev team would have final say on any changes, and the build system gives a good summary of the changes if people use it right. If someone starts making changes without documentation, you ban them from the project and ignore future requests from them. They could decide only to accept bug fixes, addons could still be used for any new content. They get hours worth of work from community members doing bug fixes for a low amount of time it takes to setup and maintain a build system.
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Not an issue if the code repository is set up with proper permissions. I suspect what you're imagining is an anarchy in which the whole world could write changes to the master code, but that's just not how an open source project works. It can easily be set up so that only Alblaka, Player, and whoever else they choose have write access, and anyone else has to submit their changes for review and approval. They effectively end up with a lot of free labor and just have to sign off on the changes after considering the impacts to the project as a whole. This provides a channel for folks like Greg, Raw, CPW, or whoever to submit their changes to the IC2 core.
Took the words right out of my mouth. There are tons of coding projects built around multiple people working on the same code, and this seems to work for them. The tools exist to do this, the question isn't feasibility, but if it is the correct option for industrial craft. With the option of pulling the code to work on it, and then submitting a push request it allows the IC team at least as much control as now with addons, and provides a better way to fix bugs. The only technical problem left that MagusUnion mentioned is that one bug fix might cause other bugs, but that is an issue no matter what. It's part of developing code, and the process of fixing things can only be improved by multiple people looking at the code with different perspectives.
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Personally, I think the community is asking too much. IC2, in a sense, is a GIFT to all, yet IC2 is humble enough to allowed alterations, add-ons, even opinions to help this mod out.
Let's keep in mind that it's a far cry from what Flowerchild had for Better Than Wolves, with his tyrannical sense of control of his mod. IC2 is not like that. Hell, even Eloraam is guilty of the same behavior when it comes to cross compatibility and the ability to create power converters (Spoiler Alert: She hates the shit out of them..)
Industrial Craft is nothing like that. It has the greatness of being receptive to the community, but at the same time is reasonable to the people who help develop this mod with their time, talents, and life issues. I think alot of you kids forget the factor that bills, jobs, and obligations have on normal adults, and the fact that all those things take a MUCH GREATER priority over this hobby (Yes, Minecraft modding is a hobby... nothing more...). While mods like Buildcraft and Forestry offer live beta updates via github and jenkins sharing systems, this does NOT make such things a requirement for developing a mod. I do not believe that Industrialcraft should be required to follow with doing this service for this mod, and such obligation limits the freedom and creative power of developers, as now their hobby 'requires something extra out of them...
I think the community is being terribly unfair to IC atm because of the bugs and unsolved issues currently withing the 1.3.2 version of Minecraft, and possibly other forces at working trying to push development faster so that they can get back to 'business as usual'. I think you people need to be reminded that this work is completely volunteer, and that simply Open sourcing the code of IC2 won't make your time schedules run any faster...
The only thing I hope you improve upon is faster bugfix delivery. It's a pain to hear that bugs 'are fixed in an unreleased version'. Beyond that, I think IC2 is doing the best it can do considering the limitations of both time, Minecraft, Java, and plenty of other factors...
Beyond that, I think the community has enough tools to work with as far as implementing their own content and changes. Any remarks claiming that these tools are not in place is purely negligence of said users. If you are that diehard about your idea, fucking write a damn add-on for it...
The point isn't that we want anyone on the team to work harder, longer, etc. The point is the community wants to be able to help out however they can. Currently there are not a lot of good ways to do that. In fact, using the current systems, anything that might alter the situation, such as posting releases more often, bug testing more, whatever else, these things all require more work by the dev team. What I think is needed is a way to take some of that work off of the dev team's backs, and what better way than to ask the community we have right here? I will admit that i haven't gone mucking around with developing an addon before, so I have no idea how hard it is to write bugfixes with one. Is that really the best solution though? Why have the dev team fixing a bug, while an addon writer fixes the same bug, probably in a hackish way that breaks other things? Wouldn't it be better if the addon writer could fix it properly, and then it became part of IC? That way the fix happens, and the dev team is free to work on something else, maybe even something that they want to work on, instead of constantly rewriting code.
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Then again, its a mod, someone else's hobby, free, etc. The two statements aren't mutually exclusive - I can express my opinion without saying that the IC2 dev team has an obligation to cater to it.
I really wish more people would understand this, it would cut out a huge portion of bickering that gets nothing done. Someone saying that they don't like something, and then being shot down with the entitlement thing helps no one. The issue isn't resolved, if lots of people feel the same way, they are less likely to try and help fix it, and so on. This is the internet, things can work differently here. Everyone can help the devs somehow, if they are willing to accept the help.
The best long-term solution that I can see is to get IC2 a public Jenkins. The builds you normally push out can be marked as RB, and then if you don't want to support hotfixes or dev builds then just shove a disclaimer on saying "using anything but recommended build is at your own risk and is unsupported" when people go to the Jenkins for the first time (that kind of stuff can be done pretty easily with cookies).
They may not be supported, but hopefully anyone can still report bugs, and hopefully somewhere besides the forums.
You also really need a better way of cataloguing and tracking bugs. A forum just doesn't cut it, because there is no filtering system in place for users (you can't easily ask the forum software to show you all of the bugs in 1.106 that are already fixed, for instance). If you moved your bug tracking to a bug tracker, then both users and the developers would be able to track bugs more efficiently. Get yourself a copy of JIRA, FoxBugz, MantisBT, or some other decent tracker. If you aren't willing to set something up then I have a public JIRA instance and you're welcome to use that. Just get the bugs off the forum and into something more sensible please
Yay, bug reports on the forums really don't work, especially when you have some of the people that you do reporting bugs. A lot of the people here know enough about the mod and about how to use it that they just need a place to post how they got the bug to happen, and any crash log. Forums are made for big posts with discussion, not short bug reports.
Display MoreFirst off you have to keep in mind that IC - even IC² - is relatively old compared to newer (i am so funny!) mods that were created in the past months (or half year whatever).
IC² already had that done for quite some time and at that time it was quite the awesome mod, because you couldn't do as much as easily as you are able to now.
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Edit: one thing:
I complained about ghosts in the beta release thread a few times and was kinda ignored after a while, because apparently nobody else could reproduce those.
Even after asking again, nobody cared
Not blaming anyone, just saying.
I may be stupid sometimes, but if i can't fix it even after trying multiple times, a lot of the other users may get the same issue too.Well, what you are saying about the community is probably because the mod is so well established now. if you look at forum use by user, I bet there are a couple of accounts that are responsible for nearly all of the posts here. It seems like some of the older users drive new accounts away with the expectation that they have no idea what they are talking about, and their thoughts and opinions are automatically worth less because of being a new user.
Sadly your title and the content of the first post means this is a thread specifically for talking about your video. (That i have no intention to watch, i fucking hate watching those time wasters, specially when i know its gonna be a shitty time waster)
So you came into a thread you claim is about this video, to express your opinion that the video is a waste of time, without watching the video? Why even bother responding, really.
After this update, I found a bunch of bugs first hand, and I was going to do this to try and help however I could to get the bugs fixed. Just looking at the bug report forums though... I saw reports for the bugs I saw, but even if I had found a new one, I probably wouldn't have posted. The people getting mad at people for not searching have a point, but when it gets to arguing like this, you have to realize that there is a problem, and ignoring it is not helping. Looking on those forums, I see almost none of the "It doesn't work, help" attitude. Instead I see people who report a bug, are ready to give info if needed, and then get yelled at about it, and never get acknowledged that it has been seen. How is this helpful to anyone?
PS: and no, I'm not going to do the standard ass-kissing before I criticize. There are problems, up until possibly now they haven't been addressed, people are getting frustrated. I will say this though, the only reason I bothered making an account and posting was because I enjoy this mod. If I was only putting this mod on my server for some of the users, I probably would have gotten rid of it by now, just because of how much is broken in the current release. Probably going to think of 50 other things to say after I post this.
