Posts by Bluehorazon

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So what, first she allowed it but then retracted her earlier permission?

No the approve for computercraft stayed but she disallowed further uses by other people. So ComputerCraft got her approvel even if the mod fiddles with her future plans, but he hasn't broken her rules because she didn't made things that clear first. It was some kind of grey area the ComputerCraft-Modder used, because he calls a RP-Function, but doesn't really depends upon her code (Obviously ComputerCraft runs without RP installed).

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The comment that you are replying to there is a response to you saying that this is about her not liking people 'messing around with unfinished code' and I was saying that if it WAS about how complete the code is then her rules would have been across the board, Not stopping at where HER plans ended. If it was about the state of the code as you suggested then it would apply to a ThaumCraft converter same as it applies to BC and IC.

There is a great difference if you give some stuff to a random guy or another renown modder.

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Again... Support comes from the maker of the (sub)mod and those 'situations' and bugs will be up to the converters' maker and the users of the conversion mod to sort. A conversion mod will not create issues for Eloraam or RP users that don't use the mod. It will only create issues for people that decide to install the mod. (aside from stupid users that go to the wrong place for their support issues- A problem no matter the mod or situation.)

Would be nice if thinks would work this way. You would also expect that the creators of modpacks are the guys who get asked if problems arise. But people run straight to the threads of the large mods. If people have any problem with the tech-pack they go to the BC/RP thread even if the problem is a simple ID-Conflict, which is caused by one of the addons (Additional Pipes quite often). I see no reason why this addon should make any difference. Alblakas Luck is that he doesn't even use the MCF so if people write stupid errors there he would not even notice.

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(1) - Because it would require a RP2 update, which in turn would require updates for the sub-mod. That's a great time for players to ask themselves... 'Do I still need this sub-mod?' Not installing the sub-mod would save at least one DisplayID and the RP2 version would likely just work better all around.

Again your not entirely right. If an Addon calls a function which stays the same it might function even with another version. Only MC-Updates will screw it. Eloraam will have to purposely destroy the addon, if she doesn't do so accidently.

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(2) - I'm not all that familiar with her 'Project Table', but why would she introduce something into her mod this early (I say early considering everything else she says is planned that is still left to do.) that she knows few people will use because another mod has a better version? Just saying... with everything she has planned. Especially considering the "-It’s not nice to copy other peoples work." agreement mentioned in Alblaka's Blog. I don't want to get into a discussion about copying. (Actually I kinda do... I've got a single (only need one) image already worked up in my mind for that one, But let's not, K?)

The project-table isn't automated crafting. It's just a crafting table with a chest for creating her logic-cells (because you could store the parts inside the crafting-table). Her automated crafting-device will work completly different than BCs and is a little harder to set up and needs energy. This is the reason why people will most likely use the "magic"-BC-Craftingtable. Copying function... well it's necessary. Tubes and Pipes copied each other in many ways (well Kraphts Pipes are mainly the same as tubes, where the retriever adds function Kraphts Pipes have etc.). SpaceToad is fine with this since his Pipes aren't a core element of his mod, but he needs them for his building-devices (he said something like this). He also just copied the conveyor-belt and made it more comfortable.

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(3) - 'As far as 'why don't you use the values'... 'because those are the conversion rates that I choose for my converter'. Do the three BC<>IC2 use the same methods and values? Who knows... Maybe Eloraam can find away to make her version THAT much better, that much more appealing to the users to use. Maybe a single RP2 machine that can convert ALL types of energy. She's a bright girl, I'm sure she can figure a way to motivate people to use hers over others. Ya, know... other than the way that led to this.

Exactly this is the point. It put's pressure on her. Her solutions normally aren't that easy and most likely this would be true for the converter too.

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(4) - That's an issue that has nothing to do with this subject... That's simply an issue with Minecraft itself and should be less of an issue once we get an official Mojang API.

I believe it if I see it. ID-Conflicts will still arise and make up about 50% of all errors. But this point is described above.

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(5) - And yes, a config file WOULD solve the problems with questions of balance... If a player feels things are unbalanced by the defaults then they can change it themselves. You can't bring general computer illiteracy and the habits' of 12 year-olds into this and expect it to stand. Totally out of context with this discussion. But like I said, the problem here isn't with sub-mods it's with Minecraft not having a user friendly method of managing these things yet. In it's current incarnation, under the scope of a 'typical' game company, Minecraft is more of an 'in-house proof-of-concept' than it is a finished commercial product. The only reason 1.0 got the 1.0 designation is because it was a milestone for Mojang more than Minecraft.

Of course I can. The normal process is this:

Someone want to disable RP-Ores -> He goes to the RP-Thread to say that it is stupid that there are more then one copper etc. -> He gots directed to the config -> He edits it and damages it by doing this -> He goes again to the thread -> He got the hint that notepad is stupid

So basically people don't care about configs. Some don't even know where to find them. If they would just change the values all would be fine. But they don't know it, even if it is totally obviously and explained many times. I hang around a lot in the RP and BtW-Threads and it is rediculous. Exspecially BtWs Hardcore-Bucket-Mode which is set to on in BtB is something people don't get.

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(6) - And the way that she stated her objection in immibis' release thread completely discredits this idea. I said last time I was tired of quoting this, yet here I am quoting it again... THIS is going in circles.... "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."

'I've specifically' = A decision she has already made.
'disallowed any' = All inclusive, Any=All. Not some. ALL.
'I have my own plans in mind for that.' = It's not about unfinished code. It's about HER plans.

If you apply this words to ComputerCraft she would had to disallow it too. Decisions are made based on certain informations (a combination of arguments and experience). So different informations could change a decision, but if you don't talk to her you cannot provide different informations which might change her decision in your favor.

She changes her plans and decisions regularly. She stepped back on the decision to not allow user-specified logic-tiles and reverted her statement to "I will think about it", she thought about new logic-gates generally although she gave out her 3-Block-Rule.

So if people discuss things with her and give her arguments to evaluate her decisions again she might do it. That's nothing to expect, but without asking you will never know.

Hmm... 8 Overclockers mean 8times faster and 25times more energy-consuming.

There are two possible calculations:

First a macerating-process takes 625 EU, with 2 EU/t this would mean the process takes about 300ticks (should be 15seconds).

If the overall consumption the process needs is increased by 30% for each upgrade we have a 32EU/t limit (if not updated I guess).

8 times fast would mean we a cycle of 37,5 ticks. 25 times more energy-consuming means 15625 EU. This would be 416,7 EU/t

The more basic calculation would just mean, that the macerator instead of consuming 2 EU/t consumings 50 EU/t which would mean that the process would need 1875 EU instead of the normal 625 EU. I haven't tried much with it, but I guess the second calculation is the one used, which really kicks ass, because you are 8 times fast but only 3 times more energy-consuming.

Quote from raGan

Milk does, or no ?

Milk kills poisons. We need something that only kills positive effects, not negative ones (since beer alone may produce one or two negative effects).

But I miss an IC2-Food this could be produced inside the machineries.

Quote from wertiqus

The item does not disappear from the inventory.
IC2-ores have the same problem, but tin-blocks etc are not affected.

If I place for example a torch, the same thing occur.

I think that this might be Forge-related as I had problems with installing Forge over ModloaderMP on my server. Instead of first installing ModloaderMP and then Forge, I had to install Forge followed by ModloaderMP (as seen in post #3787 in the Forge thread ), or else the server would crash on startup. So my guess is that maybe some methods or something from Forge are missing.

Instead of Installing ModloaderMP over forge install only the Modloader.class from ModloaderMP. So Install is ModloaderMP -> Forge -> Modloader.class from ModloaderMP, this file does not contain important things, so if this is an error related to this it would be fixed, if not it's another issue.

PS: Hmm... try creating an IC2-Item first. If you run IC2 1.62 the problem might be something different. Since the IC2-Blocks don't really exist in most cases.

Quote from FenixR

And technically, the father of forge is spacetoad. So if the decision of deleting forge ever comes (Not that i think it will), it will be Spacetoad who will make that decision and push the delete botton. Its the same with Risugame and Modloader, if she want she could delete it/stop updating and say "fuck you" to the comunity if they piss her, she has the right to do so and delete her source and most importantly FORBID anyone from ever use whatever they have of her source for update with a new version of minecraft, so if you want a new mod loader (In this hypotetical scenario), you would need to make one from SCRATCH.

Just my 2 cents on this topic that i still say its just going in circles.

Hmm... Forge is different. First SpaceToad and Eloraam are founding-members and both decided to start Forge together. So they are the parents (in this comparison spacetoad still is the father :P). Second Forge runs under an open-source licence which is some kind of one-way street. You can't make it private this easy. But well... nobody wants to do this.

It is a quite obvious error, so maybe something went wrong after the actual testing. Maybe someone has a fix, but then you still need to fiddle around in the IC2-jar, but the Hotfix should be around soon. Do a little plant-research in SSP meanwhile.

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Maybe she could finally get around to the changes ChickenBones needs implemented so that he can update his wireless redstone past 1.8.1. Instead she insists on doing everything herself, her own way. Thereby hindering other developers, thereby hindering the community as a whole (at least the part of the community that uses those mods).

Again, Eloraam is not a forge maintainer, but only a contributor. Everyone is able to add hooks to forge since it's an open-source project. Most things are done by LexManos though. Eloraam does work on Forge, but LexManos does the overall maintaining and obviously the porting.

Quote from libraryaddict

Oh lord.

Actually it is allmighty Dragon Lord Modderator...

And he already said at 1:37 AM that there should be a hotfix within 24 hours. Which basically just means that there will be a fix soon, because we all know that an allmighty Dragon Lord Modderator, even if he spells his own titel wrong is totally capable of twisting the time in some unexpected ways.

Short form: Hotfix will be out soon

Meanwhile have some fun with the errors or try some breeding in SSP.

Hmm... maybe because you use only flowers to create them

I noticed that the crops might provide good automated farms with redpower. Since the deployer just use a rightclick it might farm every crop that is grown. A transposer should be able to collect the stuff.

Yeah, same here, but actually I'm quite patient (even more than normally) because I have to figure out the whole crop-thing^^. Maybe he hide combustible lemons somewhere in there.

Quote from Alblaka

EnergyDrink is definitely gonna come with next version, probably even within the next hotfix.
Richard claimed to have the base code done, didnt yet upload it into the repository though.
Prepare for a sugar-collapse.

Any chance we get an "Anti"-Energy-drink too? I would just call it beer. It could have a rather basic function by working as a food-item, which deletes all positive effects on Steve. Making him drunk seems a bit weird, but barley would fit nice into aggriculture

Quote from Saul_Goode

For the record, parts of your post and some of your points were VERY hard to decipher... What is 'well she wrote done the parts after this happened' supposed to mean? I'm assuming 'done' = 'down'?

Well... this was between some things I had to do at work... it was supposed to be down, not done. Basically she had changed the whole OP of her thread and stated afterwards that she doesn't allow this. So she just wrote the rule against it after people used her code without permission (ComputerCraft in this case). She allowed the use because they had spoken with each other, but disallowed it later, since Computers are on her own Todo-List.

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(1) - Not if she chooses not to include energy hooks in the API. When she releases an API people are still restricted to using only her API and the hooks she provides in it. If she leaves out hooks needed for energy conversion and we're right back where we started. Not to mention that with everything currently on her plate we will most likely see an Official Mojang API before we see a RP2 API and we all know how long the wait for a Mojang API has been (still is).

Hmm... every machine that uses Blutricity needs an energy-hook. So she could create an API which doesn't allow you to use/create Blutricity... doesn't makes much sense does it?

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(2) - How do you figure? She's already shown that this is about IC2 and BC energy. If it was about 'before she did it first' then the same rules would apply to the ThaumCraft converter that she has already said that she would probably allow due to "...not having made plans for that." If it was about 'unfinished code' then there would be no question about a TC conversion being allowed- It would be disallowed the same as a IC or BC conversion.

No... she never plans a TC-Conversion. And the difference is she allows it to the creator of TC, not a third person.

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(3) - You're over-complicating the programming methinks... This is fictional, programmed energy and can be programmed to behave as needed and later can be tweaked as needed. If it's a question of packet-size then build a buffer into the converter so the programming can balance input and output. This is fictional energy and will behave the way it's programmed to behave. It's the programming that says 'If I take in 100EU then I will output ?5? BU'... or whatever factor it is set to follow. It's not like we are talking about real-world plug converters like you have to use when you go international.

It should behave according to the original plans. The problem is that a converter could create situations which are not meant to be created by normal means and cause bugs.

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(4) - Which is the same thing that Eloraam will be doing once she gets around to her own conversion plans. Constructing values that are around what she decides, which is fine for her converter, but needs to have no real bearing on someone elses' converter... As I've said before, Eloraam releases her converter and if she does it fairly then nobody will want (or need) to install an addon to achieve the functionality already included. Like I said before, including a config for the converter would alleviate a lot of the "balance" concerns.

The point is to turn this whole thing around. If someone already installed a converter, why should he bother using the other one? Not that this is something of her concern, because she already mentioned that most people will use the BC-Crafting machine, because it is cheaper. But it will provoke questions like "why don't you use the values this addon uses?" and there are a lot of people that aren't even able to solve an ID-Conflict or notice that they have a too old version of forge, yet to expect modding a config-file to change the values of a transformation is too optimistic.

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(5) - She wouldn't have... Again... as she herself has stated (and I'm getting tired of quoting) "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that." She has her own plans, yours would have been denied as well due to her having her own plans in mind for 'that'.

(6) - And what, pray-tell, makes you think she might have approved it before?

These two obviously belong together. She first disapproved the modification to ComputerCraft too. But she changed her mind after she had spoken with the developer and some other people who thought it would be nice to be able to use ComputerCraft with bundled cables. So she allowed it. It's not that you can't talk with her, but if you don't even try you lose even the smallest chance of approval. I don't say that she would have approved it. But I say that she at least might have thought about it and maybe she would have allowed it for the time until her own conversation would be finished, and of course she could have influenced it to be something she could approved.

Would like it to be a little bit more expensive too.

Rubber is difficult at the start, but later it is so incredible abundant (exspecially if you plant some rubber-trees near your house).

Quote from Saul_Goode

No competition from this discussion... sure. OK. But the conversation *IS* about competition. Sorry, but I still feel it's been proven as I've not seen any responses in this thread that have discredited my arguments to that effect. Eloraam has stated herself that she will not allow Blutricity conversion mods, in her own words "...specifically disallowed any conversion mods...", then a later statement from her confirms that she would probably allow a conversion mod that she "...has made no plans for...". If it's not about competition then explain the logic behind that. Her own words prove that her concerns lay with the plans that SHE HAS MADE. She will allow a ThaumCraft conversion that she hasn't planned for, yet she won't allow BC or IC2 that she HAS planned for. If it's not about competition then lay out an argument that can change my mind and prove me wrong. Until you do that it will remain as an non-discredited accusation. Seriously, if anyone can do this then I'd really like to see it. I'm that confident in the case I've laid out.

Well... this would defeat her plans about releasing an API later. With said API it would be quite easy to create a power-converter without needing to decompile her code. The point is she don't want a conversion to exist before she did it first. RP is rather unfinished and she don't like people to mess around in unfinished code. And the reason for this is also quite simple. If there is another similar thing out there first, people will ask her why her version is different and eventually inferior.

And actually she knows how to create the values for her energy-net out of a single value used by IC2. Well... actually RP can't even handle most of IC2-Energy, so a energy-converter is somewhat useless. 100V is about less then you use at home, about 3/4 Solars would power your microwave-oven at home. Even between 4EU/t and 32EU/t which are the smallest IC2-Pakets are quite different. Solars in RP produce 2A at 100V. About 4 of them would create 4 EU/t or better 8 of them since they are cheaper. Producing 32 EU/t would be... well it would mean sending 128A through the blue-alloy-wires. Which will cause line-loss in the range of 35%, which just means you need more Amps to equal 32EU/t. Without her line-conditioner and other machines it would be hard to create useful setups for transformation (of course you could transform a lot of small packages... but then again why not just create the IC2-Gens). They other way around is more difficult since no machine can send 4EU/t and transforming larger packets blow your blue-alloy-wire (they don't "blow" actually but they are way above there capacity causing terrible loss).

So there isn't even a usefull way of transforming since RP only uses quite low energy-values now. If someone creates such a thing he just constructs some facts that are around there. So in my calculation 2 RP-Solars = 1 IC-Solar basically this means that 1 EU = 400W (since RP-Solars produce 200W and IC2 produces 1EU/t). If I would create a conversion mod first, people would take this value as a given fact. And there comes the point of asking. If I would have asked her, and shared my oppinion about transformation with her, we might have noticed that we share the used values, which might even caused her to approve it, since a transformation-mod which uses the exact same values and isn't useable later, since the code gets changed might not conflict with her plans, but random-conversion-mod might do this.

And even if she doesn't allow it (well she wrote done the parts after this happened), so there is no proof that she might not have approved it before, but it's the same with modpacks she disallowed it, after many modpacks got released which doesn't had her permission.

It's not only the rubbertree.

You get no ores, can't create any IC2-Items etc. It looks like IC2 isn't correctly loaded, and so no config is created. All errors seem to have the same origin

Might be the problem with Modloader.class.

Copy the modloader.class inside the ModloaderMP.zip into your jar overwriting the forge-class. The forge-file has an error inside.

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Ya, ST built against mlmp v1. The only thing You need to do is install MLMp's ModLader class over Forges.
For the time being, thats the only class you need.
If you do any other class you'll cause bugs.
The ModLoader class fix is for chests not closing properly in MultiPlayer so its not real important

CovertJaguar posted an update inside the API-Thread.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/…erver_Block_Break_Fix.zip

This will fix this error and needs to be installed into your server-jar (after forge)

Try some NaClO3 in germany known as "UnkrautEx"^^.

Actually it may destroy all plants also the one wanted

I didn't get to the part of crossing crops, because I just wanted to start my server yesterday, but IC2 doesn't actually work in SMP. Being totally depressed I just got something to eat.

Quote from Brethern

There's the problem right there. She's doing pretty much all the development of Forge right now. So anything that she feels is needed for her mod is added to a community API. For example, eloraam added a feature into forge that allows torchs to be added to all her partial blocks. That feature means that several MC base classes have to be modified. Adding that into the main forge release means that whenever forge needs to be updated that's one more thing that has to be updated.

Any mod that doesn't use forge looks like this. Minecraft get's updated. MCP get's updated modloader gets updated. Mod gets updated.

With forge you add in forge get's updated before the mod get's updated.

It states right in the licensing of forge that

What that means is that eloraam could be adding a forge download in her mod with whatever additions she wants. Providing that she makes the sources available. The main API should only have the bare necessities required for minecraft modding not all these additions.

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Hmm... the problem is this would cause combatibility issues. If she makes additions to her mods in some baseclasses, this base-classes could not be touched by forge again. But there are many base-classes with multiple modifications which are used by different mods.

And most development is done by LexManos, not Eloraam. It was only in the beginning where the first Hooks got created that eloraam did much work, since her mod uses many hooks. But meanwhile it is maintained primarly by LexManos although she still helps out how to use forge and may add in hooks she needs. And as development goes on many mods start to use some of the RP-Hooks. If I remember right Alblaka is some kind of "purist" and tries to mod without touching base-classes, but lately the RP-part of forge shrinks compared to most other things inside the API, because there wasn't much needed for RP lately but the MCL and some other small things used by many mods (even IC2) got implemented.

Actually my Update-schedule is: MC update -> Modloader/ModloaderMP -> Forge -> Most mods -> waiting for IC2. So since IC2 has a very large amount of beta-testing going on it is usually the latest mod to update, forge is rather fast and not everything actually does need updating.

Quote from HeadHunter67

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing the ONE thing that would actually address any of these complaints:

Make a mod that does what you want it to, from scratch, without relying on someone else's code.

It's essentially how RedPower started, and part of the reason people got behind the concept of the Forge API.

There's all this talk of Eloraam allegedly suppressing competition, but there's no actual competition coming out of this discussion - merely people who want to use Eloraam's code to make "their own" add-on.

Why aren't we seeing people doing their own thing, instead?

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Actually if people want to do something useful they could think about a unified energy-net, that makes it possible for a mod to store a transformation-value inside a config, which could be accessed using forge. So you create an internal value named charcoal-Eq (because the transformator equals over the value of charcoal/coal). For IC2 this value would be 0,00025 since 4000 EU are 1 piece of Coal. Over this value you could transform RP Watts, IC2 EU and BC MJ. RP would need an additional transformer to split the Watt-Value into Amps and Volt.

And... well Eloraam stated that such a conversion is something she might look into, but this needs a lot of thinking because there is no vanilla Energy which could be used as some kind of base-value, and some mods handle different sources... different. Even if IC2 equals BC via Charcoal, they also both need the same values for lava. So you need to decide on an energy-output, that equals over all mods.

Actually IC2 is the only Mod that has a large array of "energy"-generating-devices. So most transformations work IC2 -> something else, because people like to power everything with solars. But then again with a wrong transformation-rate IC2-Solars will be obsolete since RP once are much cheaper and easy to connect. And that's the basic part eloraam cares about. She has a machine named pulverizer. Sounds much like the macerator, but in favor of IC2 she doesn't make it double-ore output, although the machine mainly works the same, but will use it for her chemicals addon.

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This discusion is more about her than IC related. Might be better to bring it over to her thread/blog...

Well... no better not bring this up in her thread or the blog. First her rules are not part of a discussion. They are her rules. Second the only thing that could be achieved this way is to annoy her. Which will only decrease her willingness to approve such things further.

The main problem is that she gets requests for this or that many times a day. That's also why she changed her position regarding modpacks. Basically she allowed redpower inside Modpacks, if proper credit is given (much like alblaka). But since she gets more then 10 requests about this per day and the only thing most modpacks do is stuffing all downloads into one she sees no need to approve more modpacks (...well and guess where people go if they encounter an error while using the modpack). And actually the same is true for decompiling her code. Actually there existed people who decompiled her code modified it and asked why things don't work properly. So if she says no, that's not because she want to punch people right into their faces, but it is because she has experienced some problems with such things earlier.

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Having a license is fine if you need to protect your work, Eloraam didn't need to protect her work here.

Hmm... I guess this is her decision. It's much the same with FC. If you have a mod and a plan for it you are quite careful that nobody fiddles around with it.

There are more open mods like BC or IC2, BC actually is developed under a quite open license. But how modders develop there mods is there choice. BtW is the extrem, no touching the mod or even using it in Modpacks, the only conversions are created by FC himself (BtB). Eloraam despite the troubles they both had goes mainly the same road, that's mainly because both made bad experiences with such things, basically modpacks. If you say that support for an addon is given by the creator you are totally wrong. She was thinking about a forum, because in there you could just ban everyone that ask's stupid questions or bothers you with things that are not of your concern... but still it is work you have to do.

And still the problem with asking stays the same. If you don't ask you have no chance. Of course the chances of approval were small, but that doesn't make asking obsolete (exspecially if you do the opposite of the answer you would expect).