Discussion about conversion mods.

    Quote from Ldog

    What does deeply concern me is the fact that someone who is so self-serving has control of the Forge.

    Is that such a bad thing? Does everymodder have to be open minded? or be a nice person?


    As a bad example look at Doctor House (Yeah i know hes a tv personallity), hes a pretty horrible human being but its still one of the best doctors (in the series).


    I dont have to be a nice or good person to be a modder, i can be as closed minded as i want and insult you if you are being overly annoying. If you dont like it the door its over there simple as that, i have a right to treat MY CREATIONS that came from my OWN MIND as i see fit, that minecraft have become the vessel to carry on my creativity its a entirely different matter, minecraft its made by mojang, RedPower is made by Eloraam. Mojang gave permission to mod minecraft to a certain degree (Decompiling the code, and do modification of the such), Eloraam hasnt given permission whatsoever for modding her mod (Redundant i know but still), even looking at the deobfuscated code without her permission its a insult to her and her work.


    The least you could do as a "Fellow" Dev, its respecting the wishes of the other devs when it comes to their code, you must know how difficult it is to code something in the first place.


    (And like someone said before, Eloraam doesnt have the entire control of the forge lately and even if she still did, Spacetoad was the original developer of forge so his Open Source license (Minecraft modding license or something was called iirc) still applied even to anything eloraam decides to add to the project.)

    Quote from Bluehorazon

    Actually LexManos is the Main Programmer of the forge lately. She only does what she needs, and sometimes looks into problems. But since many contributors to the forge have own Mods to work with they can't maintain it completly. So basically neither SpaceToad nor Eloraam have any control over forge (well SpaceToad does the public packing and such things. So Forge Maintainer mainly is LexManos... you may have noticed it, because a new forge-update was released the time eloraam was on vacation (which even caused RP to not work properly).


    No, I didn't know that actually. Does make me feel better.


    Quote

    Actually Forge gives developers more options to decide. You would most likely not be able to play BC, IC2 or RP together because they may modify the same baseclasses (well IC2 not sure, but BC and RP definitly).


    That's exactly why I care (well BC, IC2 and a ton of other mods).


    Quote from Alblaka

    Honestly, what's the issue? It does't influence anything if Eloraam adds a set of hooks to Minecrafts basefiles via Forge, it will probably even imporve MCs performance XD
    The only valid argument is, it increases the wormload necessary to port MCForge.
    Which shouldn't pose an issue for most IC-users, given i tend to update as last of the tekmods ^^'


    Speaking of updates. It would be nice if there was a way to just generate the ores you want from the ore dictionary (mod suggestion, anyone?)
    So for instance we could start playing with a newly generated 1.1 world without waiting for IC2 to be updated and then when IC2 is updated you just drop the mod in and dont need to regen chunks to get your uranium.
    Sorry I know that isn't exactly on topic (and I know, how could one even consider MC without IC2, the horror!).


    I don't really care what she does as long as it doesn't drive other modders away from MCForge.

    Quote from Ldog

    What does deeply concern me is the fact that someone who is so self-serving has control of the Forge.


    Consider that the alleged "self-serving" individual is one of the driving forces behind Forge in the first place - without which, you wouldn't enjoy the level of cross-compatiblility that allows you to use these mods in conjunction with one another.


    "Forge" and "self-serving" are mutually exclusive. She doesn't have to do anything to make her mod play well with others - but instead, she not only makes sure an API exists for that, but also that other developers are able to use it to make their mods work with each other.


    Seems to me that the "selfish" attitude here is the lack of gratitude for what she's done for modding in general.

    This situation kinda reminded me of the technic pack dilemma (or whatever it is now, stopped caring a while ago). The problem is permission. Eloraam did not give permission for the submod, end of story. Just like how everyone jumps on technic for using things without permission; immibis used, or at the very least relied on, Eloraams code without her permission. The entire situation could have been avoided with a simple, "May I?".

    Elooram: Now this one looks fine to me. It clearly doesn't touch RedPower at all, so I have no reason to object, even if I felt like it.

    Quote

    immibis: Oh yeah, that's another thing I have to keep repeating.


    In New Zealand, which is where I live, decompilation for the purpose of interoperability is permitted if there is no other way to obtain the required information. Statements in a license agreement forbidding it are void.


    Elooram: Yes, but you clearly haven't read your own laws:


    "for the objective of creating an independent program that can be operated with the program decompiled or with another program".


    Except yours is not an independent program. Without RedPower, yours will not run at all. These provisions were created to allow, say, the decompilation of Office to learn how the file formats work, not to allow linking against other programs.




    Quote

    Calcifire3691:TC already has a vis powered generator for BC and IC2 stuff, if Eloraam gave Azanor permission, he could add blutricity to it as well.


    Eloraam: If Azanor came to me and asked, I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module, and I see that it would help users of my mod.


    I am currently planning IC and BC, though. That's why I'm not allowing those modules at all.


    This should put the discussion to rest, in case someone even bother to bring it again :D

    Mod Authors will provide API hooks in their code if they wish for their various systems to be integrated into other mods. I can only assume that Eloraam has not provided these hooks because Blutricity as a system is very much Alpha, and the entire system could change overnight, which would require a rewrite of any theoretical API hooks and break any conversion mods anyways.


    I can only assume motive, obviously, but I would certainly not want to deal with complaints that would arise from an update breaking a Blutricity conversion mod, when the system is Alpha to begin with.


    Edit: Whoops, late to the party. My point still stands, although I do not need to assume any more. I think the main point to take home from this lesson is that doing things without permission is bad. *runs off to write a letter*

    'Wait! What does that mean?! I can't panic properly unless I know what that means!'
    'Well believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and... I went ahead anyway.'


    (1) - It's not a question of SHARING. For it to be sharing Eloraam would have to lose something. Sharing is 'If I share my cookies with you, then I will have less to enjoy for myself.' Eloraam is not GIVING immibis code. In effect immibis made his own cookies using Eloraams' recipe. Or her oven... something. Somehow the analogy can be made to fit.


    Point is there is no question of "forcing" her to share. As for the rest..? Things could be done to help modify her behavior in situations such as this. I'll come back to this topic at the end after I finish responding to quotes.


    (2) - No... it's not a perfect example. Not at all. The 1.1 port was just that. A port. It was a guy taking Alblaka's ORIGINAL code, changing just the few small details he saw that needed to be changed to make it work again. immibis CREATED a new functionality where there was none before. The port STARTED with Alblaka's code. immibis started by LOOKING at Eloraams. Not a perfect example at all.


    (3) - I know enough that Alblaka made a BLOG post stating 'I don't hate her. We talked- we're good.' I can't site the references but I know that nothing that I have seen in the general community thus far has done anything to change the opinion that I have started to form of her. And to be honestly honest, it kinda pains me because she is obviously a very talented developer and I think it would be quite nice to think she was a nice person as well. Ego and attitude, ego and attitude. They speak volumes about a person.


    (4) -

    • Again, it's not sharing. Eloraam gave immibis nothing, except a mod to mod as you pointed out. So I'll agree here, she's not at all obligated to share.
    • I'm not talking about her code. I'm talking about the code of immibis' derivative work. There's a difference.
    • It is turnabout. Aside from the confusion on what her power should be over derivative works, immibis uses her code much the same way she used Mojangs. Therefore, turnabout. And yes, I rank ego and attitude over programming ability when I dole out my respect. I have more respect for Alblaka, SpaceToad, and SirSengir than I do for Eloraam. Eloraam may be the best coder of the lot, the other some of the other developers have proven to not be total dicks for the most part. As I stated earlier, it honestly kinda pains me. But that is the public image that Eloraam seems to be content to cultivate for people like me to come along and form. Don't come at me with 'respect', I know all about it and can tell you what it's about. I respect her abilities, but like I said... 'for people like me to come along and form.'


    (5) - Sorry. But I feel you are. For me it's not a question of what Eloraam has created, it's a question of what immibis has created. Immibis is taking nothing from her. He, in essence, was killing time learning how to mod by making a mod that Eloraam herself has said that she plans to make obsolete anyway. Great idea if you ask me, practice making mods by making a sub-mod that you know you won't have to update and support once the original mod's maker gets around to it. Your seeming inability to grasp the preceding concept is what makes me feel you are being difficult, the concept that immibis has *taken* nothing from Eloraam.


    Eloraam would still be free to implement her own conversion plans at a later date. Hell, if anything she could move her own conversion plans DOWN a bit for the time being to allow her to concentrate on more integral parts of her great mod sooner.


    (6) - And it's your comments like these that cause people to "make things about you". Eloraam doesn't know me, Alblaka doesn't know me, SpaceToad doesn't know me... loads of people don't know me. Actually, nobody knows me. At least not as "Saul_Goode". That really doesn't matter to me at all though. All that matters is that the people that know me, love me. And that's good enough for me, `cause that's all that matters to me. Mm'kay?


    (7) - Such as that's the case, I'm here to call attention to the fact that her enforcement of her license is crap. As I previously stated, I've not looked directly at her license, and as no one has commented to the contrary I still assume her's is a variant of what's known as Community Copyright and as such is not intended to have this effect on DERIVATIVE WORKS.


    (8) - I'll give it to you. This is a sticky one. But this is also one that a bit of pressure from the community would help immensely with. If Community Precedent would hold then immibis' usage of her code would have been acceptable, as mentioned previously there are at least 3 BC<>IC2 converters. A RP2 <> IC2 (or RP2 <> BC mod for that matter) SHOULD be allowed.


    While I'm here though, this is kinda my point. It has been precedent for mods such as this to be allowed, and they should be allowed. It's apparently been OK with SpaceToad and Alblaka for people to use their mods in this manner up to this point and I think it illustrates in stark contrast how out-of-tune one part, of what many consider to be a triad, is. I dunno, maybe I kinda wish the other two-thirds of that triad would lean a bit harder to get things back to a seeming equilibrium. Moving on...


    (9) - I understand that and have told myself just that every time I sit down to reply to this, facts-of-the-matter are that I'm lazy and already have registered here. And two, I think I initially thought this thread might have possibly gone differently and I might have been able to suggest to Alblaka that he allows the mod to exist here and tells Eloraam that she can choose whether or not to allow it on her forums. But as Alblaka stated in his first response, he doesn't agree with her attitude but is willing to comply and enforce. Besides, I figure that there is a better than good chance that if something ends up being said here worth her reading then she will most likely be directed here by /somebody/... She managed to find the mod sub-mod in question here after all. ... Additionally, Alblaka has also proven himself to be somewhat tolerant of respectable levels of dissension... ...something I'm not %100 certain can be said to be as true in Eloraams' case...



    Other than that, I know there was something else I said I'd address further down here, but I'm tired and I lightly touched on it again in (9), so good enough. I'm gonna go put my feet up for a bit before bed.


    Before I go though... I'm not trying to devalue Eloraams mod at all. Just trying to give a bit of value to immibis sub-mod. He accomplished something here and it doesn't seem fair for him to get trampled under an established name like this. Look at how similar TMI and NEI are, yet NEI was allowed to continue as it was a product of ChickenBones' labor. I know it's Eloraam enforcing what she feels her license entitles her to enforce, but that brings us back to Community Precedents and Community Pressure. With that, Goodnight.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Edited once, last by Saul_Goode: ...true colors shining through... ().

    Quote

    Before I go though... I'm not trying to devalue Eloraams mod at all. Just trying to give a bit of value to immibis sub-mod. He accomplished something here and it doesn't seem fair for him to get trampled under an established name like this. Look at how similar TMI and NEI are, yet NEI was allowed to continue as it was a product of ChickenBones' labor. I know it's Eloraam enforcing what she feels her license entitles her to enforce, but that brings us back to Community Precedents and Community Pressure. With that, Goodnight.

    Well... you know that the creator of TMI tried to shut down NEI, but since chickenbones just recoded the whole mode so no TMI-Code is used there wasn't a way to hold this. And NEI is another good example, because it has a Redpower-Addon. Why does it have it? Because ChickenBones just asked Eloraam for permission... it's as simple as this.


    Quote

    Sorry. But I feel you are. For me it's not a question of what Eloraam has created, it's a question of what immibis has created.

    It's not about what he created, that's completly unimportant. It's what he did, or better what he did not. Eloraam already said that she might provide an API to allow Addons like BC or IC2 have them. But she also said that the mod is in an too early stage of development for this to happen. She basically disallows decompiling her code. So I don't get what's so hard to understand. If you break her rules you are the badass, it's that simple. You could just ask, if she says no, fine then you don't waste any time, if she allows it even better. But just doing things against the will of the modder (and in this case against the law) is stupid and should not be supported. It's a total different situation with IC2 or BC. This mods have a rather finished energy-net and both could be easily balanced upon the coal-value.


    The problem is that the mod might break her conversion, because it has another value. Imagine he changes 1:1 and Eloraam 1:2 by installing both mods you could create an endless cycle of power-generation. And of course people will ask her why she doesn't use the transformation-rates immibis took and so on...

    Like Frantic Fanatic Said, it all boils down to a matter of asking permision,Immbis did not aks for it under the false/misguided premise that the "New Zealand" Law would cover his ass, which did not (I posted what elooram said about it a few post up)


    Even if there wasnt all this law talking about what its right and what is not, the worse that could happen for doing stuff like this is that the modder in question (Eloraam) lose the will to continue developing/updating her own mod, which in this case could have happened, Eloraam said in a post that if stuff like this continues she would keep developing Red Power 2 but in closed Beta, she doesnt want her mod code to be completely public and she has a right to do so even if it breaks the "Spirit" of the minecraft modding comunity. Its her mod, her code, her creativity, her rules.

    I wanted to point out that there is one major fact being ignored here. Just because she will make her own converters do not necessarily mean this would be obsolete.


    Geothermal generators accept lava directly now, does that mean the geo generator mkII from powercrystals mod are obsolete? If updated I still plan on using them. You may ask, but why have both when they do the same thing?
    Simple, they both generate different amounts of EU. Normals give 10 eu/t where as the mkIIs give 20eu/t.


    This is the same argument behind using more than one BC<->IC power converter mod. They may have the same end result, but they do not work the same way. They don't interfere with one another and I for one like having options.


    Not having permission is a good reason to pull it, but I see no good reason why permission shouldn't be granted. I really hope she changes her stance on such addons.

    What? Both Geothermal Generates 20 Eu/t unless albaka recently nerfed them or something, and if the "MKII" gets updated (Which i doubtly think so), it would most likely have a similar generation rate as the normal geothermals...


    And yes, her making RP2 Power converters would have made similar converters obsolete because there is no actual reason to update a mod for something that its already implemented in the core mod.


    And lastly its not a matter of having "Options", its a matter of asking permission to even look at Eloraam code in the first place when she hasnt released any kind of official api while also publishing W/E he made with "Illegal" means to other people. This is the internet, you may decompile and butcher eloraam entire code if you want, but for fucks sake at least keep it private, theres no reason to go all "Hey i looked inside your code and did my own stuff without bothering to even ask for permission and with the same logic im gonna post it on X number of forums"


    (1) - Yes, I'm aware that TMI's maker took issue with NEI. And that was kind of my point in bringing that up. Look how SIMILAR NEI and TMI are. Yet because NEI consists of code that ChickenBones wrote it's allowed to move forward. Regardless of what extent ChickenBones used TMI in order to make NEI. So long as he didn't directly copy TMI's code then his is allowed to move forward. He may have looked at TMIs' code to see how it did what it did, but looking at the TMI code was not enough. It was HIS code that he eventually released.


    (2) - Eloraams own comments on this prove that it's not about whether he asked or didn't...


    quote;@eloraam - "In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."


    Establishes that it's not a question of permissions, it's a question of Eloraam making a proprietary system.


    quote;@eloraam - "I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module, I am currently planning IC and BC, though. That's why I'm not allowing those modules at all."


    PROVES it's more a question of making a proprietary system for her. She is clearing the field of competition in this area.... 'I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity' and 'I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module' are at direct odds with each other.


    (3) - a) So, WHAT... if the Blutricity system changes then it's up to the sub-modder to deal with that down the road. b) asking in this scenario would have ended essentially the same. Asking first wouldn't have resulted in immibis being allowed to release his mod. Eloraam still would have said no as it 'interferes with her plans'. immibis wouldn't have made his release topic, and I wouldn't have made this thread and this conversation wouldn't have ever taken place. Eloraam has PROVEN that the would not have allowed this mod. She doesn't have conversion plans for Thaumcraft so that's ok.... Because it doesn't preempt HER plans, so she doesn't see it as 'competition'.


    (4) - Again, so what? If immibis' mod breaks RP2 then no one will want to install the conversion mod. Eloraam wouldn't have to support conversion mods because they aren't her's. If the mod introduces undesired effects, what of it? The conversion mod wouldn't be required to use RP2. Same reasoning as the current BC<>IC2 mods having config files for the conversion rates, so the people using those converters can tweak the exchange rates as they see fit.


    Quote from FenixR

    Like Frantic Fanatic Said, it all boils down to a matter of asking permision


    ... see my response marked (2) and (3b) above.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    This is going in circles since you are still repeating yourself about eloraam not wanting any "Competition" on the convertion. Forget for a second about the selfish part of eloraam not wanting any kind of Blue<->EU Converter, Image eloraam didnt even considered the possibility of the converter, but immibis still did the same, decompiling HER CODE without HER PERMISSION and making the changes he made public without HER CONSENT. immibis Broke the agreement he and eloraam made when he decided to download her NonSourceMod and i quote:


    In the end immibis did wrong because he did not respect the copyright, and eloraam was in her right to take a Cease and Desist Stance on the matter. The end.


    And one last thing, she disallowed the Blue to MJ/EU conversion only because it was already in her development plans. ThaumCraft was never in the picture for her so she may grant permission to make a Vis<->Bluetricity Converter if someone step up and do it the right way, asking permission to do so first.

    I'll observe that Immibis strikes me as the sort of person who does as he pleases unless there's something to explicitly prohibit it.
    I recall seeing something here wehre he bumped a post and outright stated that he was doing so because there was nothing that said he wasn't allowed to. So it seems to me that he acted not only with disregard, but with a lack of conscience. It's easy to think his motives were well-intended if you only ever visit the IC forums - but if you saw his responses on the RedPower thread, anyone would wonder why he didn't simply apologize and let the matter drop.


    I'm not sure where people get this image of Eloraam as some egotisitical indivdual with an attitude - anyone who's frequented the RedPower thread would know that she's the model of grace, tact, and decorum. She doesn't even put down her critics. So, as always, this tells me thqt the people who have a problem with her are the ones whose own attidue needs a check.


    Regardless of anyone's personal opinion, it all boils down to one simple thing: Mothing gives anyone the "right" to make an add-on when the author has explicitly prohibited it. It doesn't matter if other developers allow it - Eloraam doesn't have to do the same, regardless of her reasons.


    And honestly, she's done far more for the Minecraft community (and even the IndustrialCraft community) than any of the people who are pointing fingers at her.

    Quote from FenixR

    (1) - This is going in circles since you are still repeating yourself about eloraam not wanting any "Competition" on the convertion. Forget for a second about the selfish part of eloraam not wanting any kind of Blue<->EU Converter
    (2) - Image eloraam didnt even considered the possibility of the converter


    (3) - she disallowed the Blue to MJ/EU conversion only because it was already in her development plans. ThaumCraft was never in the picture for her


    (1) - I'm not steering this in circles, merely rephrasing concepts that obviously don't take root the first time I try to plant them. I'll quote myself...


    Quote from Saul_Goode


    (7) - Such as that's the case, I'm here to call attention to the fact that her enforcement of her license is crap. As I previously stated, I've not looked directly at her license, and as no one has commented to the contrary I still assume her's is a variant of what's known as Community Copyright and as such is not intended to have this effect on DERIVATIVE WORKS.


    (8) - I'll give it to you. This is a sticky one. But this is also one that a bit of pressure from the community would help immensely with. If Community Precedent would hold then immibis' usage of her code would have been acceptable, as mentioned previously there are at least 3 BC<>IC2 converters. A RP2 <> IC2 (or RP2 <> BC mod for that matter) SHOULD be allowed.




    If it's not about competition then why can there be ONLY one Blu<>EU converter (hers)? And if she's 'not allowing ANY conversion mods', then why would she grant permission to a Thaum<>RP2 but not a IC2<>RP2? If it's not competition then why is it OK for someone to do something she's not planning and it's not OK to do something she is planning? It's not about ANY KIND of Blu<>EU transfer, it's about 'nothing but her's'.


    (2) - Honestly- I think she'd have more of a leg to stand on if there was NO conversion, her's or otherwise. Her stance would still be objectionable due to Community Precedent- For me Alblaka and SpaceToad set the precedent here. It's her license, I get that... but see where I quoted my own earlier comment (7). I don't have issue with her having a license or using it to protect her work. I would not object at all if someone tried to steal her mod and she used her license to protect herself, immibis is not trying to steal anything from her.


    Alblaka pulling the plug on the unauthorized 1.1 port is a totally acceptable license enforcement. It was his code in it's entirety.
    Eloraam pulling the plug on a conversion mod isn't. immibis LOOKED at her code and wrote his own. It may state that he isn't allowed to do so, but again that's where community precedent and community pressure come back in. (See my comments about TMI vs. NEI).


    Having a license is fine if you need to protect your work, Eloraam didn't need to protect her work here.


    (3) - Precisely why I view this as being about competition. She has her own plans for IC<>RP and BC<>RP, so anything else would be competing against HER method of converting. She has no plans for Thaum<>RP2 so there's no competition for her there. If, as she herself has stated, 'In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity', "any" is all-inclusive, allowing some while disallowing others is not 'ANY' it is 'SOME'. She is only allowing converters that she has no plans for. NO PLANS FOR. If she's not intending to do it then she'll allow it because, again, it's not competition for her. Allowing *certain* mods she doesn't intend to do herself goes directly against her original statement of specifically disallowing ANY conversion mods. She is only disallowing the things SHE PLANS to do, not the things she doesn't.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote

    Having a license is fine if you need to protect your work, Eloraam didn't need to protect her work here.

    Hmm... I guess this is her decision. It's much the same with FC. If you have a mod and a plan for it you are quite careful that nobody fiddles around with it.


    There are more open mods like BC or IC2, BC actually is developed under a quite open license. But how modders develop there mods is there choice. BtW is the extrem, no touching the mod or even using it in Modpacks, the only conversions are created by FC himself (BtB). Eloraam despite the troubles they both had goes mainly the same road, that's mainly because both made bad experiences with such things, basically modpacks. If you say that support for an addon is given by the creator you are totally wrong. She was thinking about a forum, because in there you could just ban everyone that ask's stupid questions or bothers you with things that are not of your concern... but still it is work you have to do.


    And still the problem with asking stays the same. If you don't ask you have no chance. Of course the chances of approval were small, but that doesn't make asking obsolete (exspecially if you do the opposite of the answer you would expect).

    ***Sorry... I messed up earlier and originally posted this over my previous post. Thankfully I had an old tab open and was able to fix my mistake.***


    @HeadHunter; Immibis has gotten quite a bit of attention in this thread. But in the interest of full disclosure, it's not about Immibis for me, it's about Eloraam.


    Thanks to that license quote a few posts back, it appears that Immibis will do what he wants even if there is something to expressly prohibit it. But at the same time, the RIAA expressly prohibits it but I still have been known to download a song from time to time. I also make it a point to buy albums from a band's merch table when they come to town and have the shelf of shrink-wrapped CD's to prove it. In the cases of some bands, the shrink-wrapped CD's were in addition to the 'listening copy' of the CD.


    It's not about express prohibition, it's about the source and circumstances. Do I need to rant about the RIAA? It's not about the 'rules', it's about why there is a rule.


    quote;HeadHunter - I'm not sure where people get this image of Eloraam as some egotisitical indivdual with an attitude.


    Because that is the image that she has cultivated through actions such as this. You might have a different opinion of her because you have a different relationship with her with different interactions. To someone not in her 'inner-circle' it's quite easy to form such an opinion because that is the image that is readily available. Trust me, I didn't TRY to form this opinion. Don't much care for it, really.


    quote;HeadHunter - Mothing gives anyone the "right" to make an add-on when the author has explicitly prohibited it.


    And my point that there was no need to prohibit uses such as this. It's a matter of context and fairness. Immibis wasn't taking anything away from Eloraam anymore than SirSengir or Krapht have taken anything from SpaceToad. If anything Sengir and Krapht have made SpaceToad mod BETTER, for people that use their sub-mods, by not stifling their efforts to build upon his system.


    If someone were STEALING from Eloraam than I would be on her side on that just as much (likely more) as I'm 'against' her here.


    quote;HeadHunter - 'she's done far more for the Minecraft community (and even the IndustrialCraft community) than any of the people who are pointing fingers at her.'


    Not disputing that at all, except the fact that her stifling Immibis sub-mod works against the community much in the same vein that SpaceToad allowing Logistic Pipes and Forestry works FOR the community. And the way that her actions cause strife and strain in the eyes of the community (strife and strain that I am all to aware that I am contributing to with this.)


    Freedom of choice... If it comes down to it, let US decide whose conversion method we prefer... Eloraams' planned, yet to be delivered. Or Immibis' here and now. It is OUR game after all. Her mod... OUR games.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    What you saying its basically fuck her rights i want to exercise my rights. Things doesnt work that way, Your rights Stop at the beggining of other peoples rights.


    Yes you have a right to play minecraft how you want it, but eloraam as a right to forbid anyone from looking at her code and making/public anything based on it. I dunno how much simpler i can put these so you can finally understand.


    (1) - But nobody is fiddling with her works here, if anything it's a question of purity. RP purists wouldn't have to install the mod, and can play the way Eloraam wants them to play. It's a question of options for the people that want to play differently that Eloraam's 'plans' would allow. Or maybe just want to use her mod, but can't because certain features because she hasn't fully implemented her plans. If this mod would have been allowed to go forward, the we would be able to use it to build our current system up. Immibis' mod could be a PLACEHOLDER for Eloraams' later implementation. Or just until the Blutric system is more fleshed out in general. Immibis' mod would allow us to use the IC2 power system to supplement Eloraams' system until she can build her's out a bit more.


    (2) - ModPacks would be another acceptable use of license enforcement. ModPacks are using her mod in it's entirety without permission. The modpacks CONTAIN her code in it's entirety. Immibis' sub-mod had nothing but changes and original material.


    (3) - how am I wrong that support is given by the creator? Does Mojang give support for RedPower, IC2 or BuildCraft? No, support for RedPower comes from Eloraam. IC2, Alblaka. And BC support comes from SpaceToad. Does SpaceToad support Forestry? No, you go to SirSengir for Forestry related support. If Eloraam starts a forum, appoints trusted mods for said forum and THEY handle what shows up. If Eloraam had her own forum and appointed her own trusted moderators then in effect that would reduce that amount of crap she'd have to deal with. Regardless, Eloraam would not be obligated in any way to fix issues with Immibis' mod.


    (4) - Do you read EVERY EULA of every bit of software you install? Typically not. You trust that the EULA will fall in line with the EULA's of similar.


    Knowledge that there are BC<>IC2 conversion mods in the community already could lead one to believe that is an acceptable use within the community, it's the fact that Eloraams actions and interpretations are so far out of line with what has become the standard of the community. I'm sorry, but in this respect I just do not see Eloraam being community minded at all, more of an island continent with incredibly restrictive import/export policies.


    Again, I fail to see how Eloraam felt her work had been so violated that she had to enforce her license. It's crap like this that leads to SOPA\PIPA. It's game companies getting pissed about people posting YouTube videos of them playing the game. How does someone watching a video of someone else playing a game infringe on the game makers copyright? It's people taking things too far and out of context. It's people not being able to recognize 'Acceptable Usage'. Eloraams' mod was not hurt in anyway- only her plans for a proprietary , competition-free playing field.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Less swearing please - Alb


    I understand that, and TOTALLY respect that desire. In my defense it was a direct reaction to FenixR dropping his own F-Bomb. So I used the same word, just excessively. That is all.


    ---Censored RePost of what was removed---


    Quote from FenixR

    (1) - What you saying its basically fuck her rights i want to exercise my rights.
    (2) - but eloraam as a right to forbid anyone from looking at her code and making/public anything based on it.
    (3) - I dunno how much simpler i can put these so you can finally understand.


    No... you are taking ME out of context now. If you want to talk about 'in circles', I've already addressed the fact that Eloraam has rights.


    (1) - I'm saying her rights do not extend to derivative works. If that derivative work HARMS her work, then things get stickier and I'm less on the side of immibis'.


    (2) - So people can't look at her code, figure out how she manages to pack so many things into such a small number of DisplayID's and recreate that inside their own mod? They still aren't taking her code, merely looking at the implementation for reimplementation. Using your reasoning, no one can ever do something that she has claimed to be even PLANNING for.


    My issue isn't with her rights, it is how far she thinks her control should extend.


    I understand immibis' work touches her work and in some circumstances she should probably have some say over that. But not until it HARMS her work.


    It's not about IF she has rights, it's how far those rights should cover her before before people start calling her on her inappropriateness.


    Look at Advanced Machines for IC2... a mod that pretty much duplicates and improves machines contained in Alblaka's mod. Are Alblaka's panties in a bunch over that? I understand Alblaka is Alblaka, and Eloraam is Eloraam- but that brings us back to Community Precedents and calling her on her inappropriateness when she goes too far.


    (3) - Well... if ya wanna get personal about it... I don't think it's a matter of simplicity for me. I think it may be you and the complexity.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.