What's Up with the bukkit thing

1st Official Post

    Now first off I haven't been playing minecraft for that long so only started figuring out how to get things working a couple of months ago after days of intensive learning might I add


    So my only question is what's up with the bukkit not being supported and for that matter the whole mc forum have they in some way insulted your work or banned you from creating IC cause I seriously don't understand why someone would want to in a way try to work against other modders instead of with them.


    The work you did in IC with all the bugs are incredible and IC2 where you chopped the ID's etc are even more incredible so why be ashamed showing everyone what you can do and did for that matter.


    The fact is that if everyone wants to do everything on there own without a central point like bukkit for instance getting mods to run smoothly becomes a nightmare for anyone running a server. All or most of the bukkit plugins are improvements on the game and security related with the odd mod that allows you to do stuff that you couldn't normally.


    But instead what you find is that everyone is trying to run into there own direction, you have SMP Mods and SP Mods you can download off the mc forum installed on your normal server jar then you have Itemcraft trying to get the SP mods working on SMP and then off course Bukkit and none of them are compatible with each other so a crap load of fixes need to occur before you can play.


    So I reckon one could argue that if you want to play IC2 just play that and other mods modded for mc without bukkit etc, but even though IC2 is incredible just playing that alone actually sucks now correct me if I'm wrong.


    1) All the good mods are mostly for mc without bukkit support these mods mostly include or change the game completely like mocreatures,IC,Buildcraft, Slopes, Fancypack etc very cool to have and play and adds some flavour to your mc game.


    2) Bukkit plugins are awesome for security and server management and have tons of add-ons that change the gameplay without changing the content, like electrocraft, Bedrock, essentials, Iconomy etc etc etc. these mods really help with management of server and just gives you tons of new gameplay styles without the sacrifice of ID's etc


    3) notch relay on Mods to give flavour to his games if he were to develop all of these it would take him forever so the game is written to be modded.


    So now what i see happening is that IC2 for instance gets developed awesome mod with loads of flavour but you either just use this along with some other lame ass mods from mc forum or you drop this mod or pray someone will convert them and hope they did everything correct or you start learning java and port them yourself hehe


    Further because the IC for instance does not support bukkit most of the bukit mods don't support IC so you will find some very handy ore generators but none support the new ores in IC except mineralveins but that just screws up your server map, but anything else IC loc ID's are just not supported and mainly because no-one knows about IC or evn what it i ll about.


    Bukkit is mostly server side but people have managed to port mods like IC to bukkit enabling one to have the best of both worlds and that works very well I had Fancypack,Slopes,Mocreatures and IC running on a server with 50 bukkit plugins and created a very playable server up until you reach the Iconomy stage where IC uses it's own money system vs Iconomy and then you are screwed.


    So why do you want to keep IC2 separate from bukkit for instance if the mod was compatible all those O-Matic machines including the IC currency could just be dropped and the Iconomy mod could be used for buying and selling things and there are a lot of other mods that could also be implemented to make life even easier not to mention how many players would be very happy.


    Your statement about bukkit 'Stop bothering me' just makes me wonder why you feel this way looking from a third person perspective I only see IC2 gaining from this and don't get me wrong I'm not supporting bukkit it has many flaws but at the moment the best for mods and anyone that has installed a bukkit plugin and used it would agree, world border for instance helping you set borders on map, and various other mods just helps a lot


    The biggest question would be how many players pass on IC2 because it's not compatible with bukkit, and my personal opinion that would account for a lot of players only the really hard core gamers with time to port or the know how to install a modded craftbukkit server will use IC2 if this mod was bukkit compatible it would not just be the very first mod of its kind that will be compatible but it will attract more players and you might even find getting more donations through players looking at the scope of how many players there are a mod like IC2 should be used by at least 50% of those players because it's a really good mod and only way reaching that goal is compatibility.


    Anyway if you could perhaps enlighten me an I think a couple thousand other players as to why you tend to want to go on you own direction with this mod it would really shed some light.


    P.S I like IC so much I did a 256 Texturepack for it took me days so it hurts having to wait for some bukit porting to happen before I can play IC2


    So why do I have to wait because before I can setup a new server a short description of my current server might answer this question.


    Using Iconomy for all economic needs paying online players x amount per hour, With the residence mod players are allowed to buy property which protects there property and also allow them to build cool shops which they can rent out to other players. Shop ranges from electronics up to your basic food and stones you can buy and sell everything using NPC as traders to do the transactions for you while you are offline and thus gives live to a world.


    Full scale factories producing clay, stone etc and being able o drop those into chest via plugins, When you die you loose your items this helps balancing out the overwhelming ability of the mining drill and laser you die you have to build new ones and ores are scrares and with mocreatures enabled you have so many wild animals roaming around that surviving becomes truly hard the lame ass mobs in mc are nothing compares to orgs an lions and ghost etc gives you a lot more to do with your mining laser like killing mobs lol.


    So on top of that you get your glass bac when you break it except for IC reinforced glass because the bukkit plugin does not support it again becaus ethey have no idea what IC is we have movecraft on there allowing some spectacular boats to sail on ocean etc World has some basic chest protections that you buy and some merchant that has started selling electricity to others by passing IC currency an just using on an off switches which they build on there property so you don't buy electricity gets cut off the IC currency completely unusable because who the heck want to use iron to create currency when we use dollars or pounds as currency, we have bank account with ATM tellers all over some even installed some tellers at there on homes at x-amount allowing them to do bank transfers paying other players to do work or just buying stuff.


    All shops have nice showcases displaying goods to sell except all IC items cause plugin does not support it again modder did not even know about IC if he did it would have been in there we have streetlamps that does not use the luminator and works very well and with electric craft we are able to build draw bridges and loads of other cool stuff, you can vie the world in a browser with dynmap and use falsebook to create other cool effects, server is getting backup every hour automated with a nice plugin and essentials keeps the server safe with limited permissions to certain players.


    We have airports that will take you to other worlds using multiverse allowing players to take a break and visit other worlds already built by others, players have buildings built using slopes and furniture in there homes and the clever ones have electricity to there houses using IC mind you the very clever ones cause you have to really study before you start messing with IC lol.


    So this is the world and reckon a lot of others have the same type of setup and we get stuffed we can't upgrade to IC2 even if we want to unless we drop the res and vice verse real pain in the behind it actually puts a damper on playing mc, for mc v1.9 this exact server above will also be able to have the vehicle mod and guns mods an if we are lucky the planes mod and build craft included with the unlimited ID fixes and IC using less id it helps adding more content to the server


    What stands in the way is compatibility, I will probably invest some time in learning how to port to help out already made a 256 texture pack for IC which looks nice so yeah i would help o understand why

    One thing, bukkit is never meant to mod MC at all. Sure it has a plugin-framework, but it's never meant to alter MC itself.
    And, it's not Alblakas faulth. Bringing IC to bukkit would require a sub-framework (itemcraft and the like).
    That has a bit impact on performance. And when the creator of said sub-framework stops development, IC is halted too. Same story with the MCP.


    Even more, bukkit is a whole new system. Alblaka wouldn miss some hooks for code. Don't forget that, server software =/= Client software.


    Sure it is possible with few workarounds. But in the end it's just not very worth it. Notch should get to work and get a generic framework for modding first instead of beating us to death with mushrooms.


    Sure i would love to see IC on bukkit, but the systems are just too different. For example, plugins wouldnt merge well with MC forge or even more blockIDs alone.
    My final word is: It would be nice, but the priorities are elsewhere at the moment.
    (alblaka, feel free to bash me across the jaw in-case I lied. But imo this is about the situation)


    EDIT: Feanturi has a very nice adminicy mod for vanilla MC server. Try it, it made me drop bukkit entirely for Cmodding.
    Btw, Ablaka shouldn't be responsible for another ones work.


    SecBTW: One of the nicest things about MC is creativity. Think farther then plain plugin>IC. For example, think plugin>[bypass creation]>IC. Believe me, I have worked around a lot of problems using a different mindset.

    Quote

    Buildcraft – spilling items.™

    • Official Post

    http://azelphur.com/content/why-you-should-avoid-bukkit is enough of a reason for me not to support bukkit at all.


    The way EvilSeph behaved can't be tolerated, it reflects back to the whole project. Azelphur's complaint is totally valid and very important, SourceMod would not be what it is now without enforcing the license properly. Using such a server-side plugin system tends to involve the usage of many different small plugins, I wouldn't really trust those without being able to inspect the source code easily and quickly.


    CraftBukkit not building upon the MCP decompiled version of MC is a real pain to support, there's no valid reason for them not to use MCP as well. MCP's scope is much larger than what bukkit needs, the bukkit team could help maintaining the server-side mappings and patches if they feel like the update process being too slow.


    Without using MCP, CraftBukkit's change set to the MC classes can't get easily applied to the source code IC2 builds upon. In addition to that it's not helpful at all to have a major difference between the client and server versions of minecraft. We couldn't even use any of the API CraftBukkit provides because a version for the client (-> SP) is missing. Forge improves the extendibility of MC in a much less intrusive and symmetric way, we don't have many issues with sharing code across the client and server versions.


    That being said, I might even prevent porting IC2 to bukkit. It's not allowed to redistribute IC2, especially modified versions of it.

    Slightly offtopic incoming:
    Yes I also don't like the way bukkit is going. I followed it nearly from the start and used it a lot for public and private servers and also coded some basic stuff for it, IMO it is the best plugin system out there. Sad thing is I kind of see Dinnerbone as in charge of bukkit development, mainly because I saw him porting bukkit to 1.8 all night, not EvilSeph. But I also saw that the community is going downhill since some time. The most prominent case I remember, was when a valid report of a malicious plugin was simply deleted by the mods. Also the switch to bukkit dev was one of the worst decisions ever, great way to take away the last bit of interaction between plugin coders and users. But still I think bukkit is doing something great, providing the minecraft community, which sadly has a lot of "bad" people, with a secure way of running public servers. Don't know how many times I used Logblock to rollback some idiot or worldguard yelled at me that some guy was trying to use TNT or lava, wouldn't be possible without bukkit. And at the same time you get such a load of new features. While I still think they can't beat IC2, they are really near it and the instant I found the bukkit version of IC I used it. I hoped that with the release of Spout client mods would be more viable on bukkit servers, but the complete refusal to be compatible to any existing system and even working into this direction ruined it. If you are going to build something that is able to allow clientmods, why not make use of an existing protocol? At least make it nearly compatible, read as requiring less than 5 hours of work to adapt, to existing systems like Forge or Modloadermp.
    So to sum it up: i disagree with a lot of the recent developments in the bukkit community, but I still think it is a great project and I hope they keep going beside Notch throwing out crappy versions one after each other.


    Player: Please at least don't disallow third parties to port IC2 to bukkit. I know I don't have the right to ask for that, it's your code after all, but please don't limit the way people are creating new stuff from it. I am entirely fine with you not supporting bukkit at all, but at least give others the chance to try it, of course with asking permission of the IC2 team first before publishing it.


    Sorry for my crappy english. Im only a spanish speaker, but usually recognized for being one of the most fiery and politcal player and integrant in every community that I pass trough. A rebel, a forsaken, a partisan, a molotov-thrower. And now Im here. Can you ever believe that im gonna forget my esence?... Not this time :p.



    First of all: IM WITH YOU!! (yeahhh!!)


    EvilSeph has behaved in a very childlike and ignorant way. Just the best and unsurpassable (sugested by the translator) example of a poor idiot who doesnt even know what he drives, what he have between the hands, and what its all about.
    If you have at least some brain, you MUST understand that a GPL project enforces, to subsist, to very person to share their projects under GPL. If not, there is no more GPL project, and the story is over. But, what it seems, EvilSeph doesnt have it. And the modder who made that plugin doesnt have it too.


    But,...


    Im with Catto too. Even if BUkkit its not the discovery of the century, its really good helping to manage a community, specially in the social face of it, and makes the technical manage really easy too.
    You cant improve too much, and you must use the things that already exists. The plugins are more about special functions that you can add, than new items and features. But I guess that I prefer tto start sacrifycing the fun side of the thing "in the wake of" (sugested by the translator) the ability to sustain a group of persons, a little comunity, with rules, mechanisms, and all.


    Also,... In the other hand... Bukkit is a GPL project!!
    If they ban you from the community, you can still being using the source code, modify it, and posting it in some other place!! You can make your own Bukkit community, and NO ONE can say nothing against it cause its GPL!! That means that nobody can blame at you, and if they do it, you can ignore them. You are FREE to do it, and the GPL itself encourages you to do it.


    So,... If you want, its time to set the things on fire. Time to spread this. The gasoline, and invite them to smoke a cig in the honor of this new dawn. The dawn of the TRUE GPL, doesnt matters who like it or not.
    Time to spread what happened there in every language, every place, and also to make your (or our) own project about Bukkit, plugins, and so.


    GPL is like the communism in the codding. If you are gonna make something under the communism, you can only demand credit, but never, NEVER, a property about it.
    Communism is for the good of everyone, and against the will and the selfish interests of the makers of the things. So lets teach them what they are playing with.



    (NOTE: Im not communist, but,... If the play to be communists, lets play with their own rules then. You can play a game with some rules, and suddenly change to another set of rules when you dont want the old ones)

    After spending some time looking into code and just trying o grasp the whole bukkit etc thing I came to realize that whoever is in charge of bukkit is a complete idiot.


    Now the whole idea seem very good that's until you get behind the scene and try to code, I'm a programmer and web developer so it took me less than a day to realize that bukkit went and change the whole mapping system and even renamed classes they not just making it very hard for themselves to upgrade versions but mere impossible for community like IC to support it.


    So I now completely understand why one would not bother, it's a dam shame and porting mods to bukkit well that is going to take forever not to mention having to do it all over.


    For the first time I dislike bukkit they have some cool plugins but yeah will spend some time on finding a way to port bukkit plugins to the vanilla server surely there has to be a way.

    Bukkit should have improved Notch's work, expanding it, not revamping it entirely.
    I also found it a weird system.

    Quote

    Buildcraft – spilling items.™

    But,... actually is the most "easy-to-handle" system for a server ):. What, then, people is suposed to do more away than choosing whatever they want?
    I mean,... There is no other system easier, friendlier (with the codding stuff) and with the same capabilities of player managing than the Bukkit.

    Godcraft uses Bukkit and Were using bukkit with IC2 as well. Yeah you could be an ass and prevent it but then at the end of the day it just means both sides are assholes and that both projects should be shutdown.

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