Impossible Breeder Experiment?

lyplyp · Feb 13th 2012

I was toying with the idea of building what *appears* to be a standard Mk2 reactor - but with the added benefit of breeding cells at the same time. I was able to get a 4-chamber reactor to run 2 uranium cells ( for power efficiency 2, and output 40 EU/t ) - while breeding 6 cells to over 50% in one cycle. It'd more than supply its own fissible material. Yay, right? Just one irk - 40EU/t is really quite low, even with the added bonus of free breeding.

So, I've been trying to get a 3-U-cell reactor working... What I'm after is a positive breeder, 2+ power efficiency minimum, that runs like a Mk2 (cold starts, full cycles) while breeding enough to be supplying itself with new cells - and all with a minimum power output of 70 EU/t. I'm of course assuming no RedPower, BuildCraft, no ice/water injectors, etc. I can get it to run 67% of a cycle before boom. Not quite enough. Is such a rector an actual impossibility?

I'm thinking it probably IS impossible.

lyplyp

mijnboogje · Feb 13th 2012

posting some designs might help more experienced folk to see what you mean, can you please provide some?

lyplyp · Feb 13th 2012

Sure thing. Here's a functional one, 4-chamber, that I whipped up in 3-4 minutes. I'm sure it could be better/cheaper, but the point goes through:

Mk II-1 EA Positive Breeder

Points of interest:
1) Mark 2, cold-start: safe, easy, reliable, no advanced wiring, heating, etc. Easy as pie.
2) Self-replenishing breeder: Every cycle will (on average) consume and produce equal amounts of cells, making for great uranium efficiency. (2 cells burned per cycle, 4 cells rewarded ever 2 cycles)
3) Power efficiency: 2.00 - power output is 40 EU/t, averaging 26 EU/t with cooldown. (Technical efficiency is 4.00, high - like all breeders.)

So, it's a "hybreed" - a mix between a power reactor and a breeder reactor. What I'm thinking about is this: could I make a similar self-replenishing hybreed-design with a higher power output - more uranium cells? This is my best attempt so far at a 3-cell hybreed, and it's falling way short of Mk2 classification:

Mk-IV EA Positive Breeder

That's what I'm pondering; "is there any way to get 2+ power efficiency, 70+ raw power output, and a self-replenishing breeder - all wrapped in one Mk2 reactor?" I'm thinking "probably not without piping ice into it" and since I'm so lazy that I want all this in one reactor; I'm certainly not building a massive external system for a reactor that would be beat easily by having two reactors anyway.

I guess the hybreed reactor is mostly an intellectual excercise, but a good one.

lyplyp

Bluehorazon · Feb 13th 2012

If you don't mind turning it on and off you might try something like this:

http://www.talonfiremage.pwp.b…=1k10101001501521s1r11r10

I haven't done much improvement but I guess you are searching for something like this? But I guess it isn't enough to drive itself.

http://www.talonfiremage.pwp.b…1k101010037ps011111101110

something like this could also be used as a combination of breeding and generating energy, but producing a lot of energy and breeding is not possible I guess.

lyplyp · Feb 13th 2012

Mm, but those two don't actually do much in terms of actual breeding though. Not enough to refill the reactor by a long shot. And yes, the basic idea behind the breeder was to create a Lazy-Boy reactor. Not great in any way, but doing it all in one easy-to-manage core. I'm running a 120EU/t Mk2 now, and I'll probably end up complimenting it with a second reactor - a pure breeder.

But yea, I don't think enough changes can be done to my 3-U design to make it Mk2. More Uranium than that is definitely going to be an impossibility, at least with 2+ power efficiency.

gorzak · Feb 17th 2012

As far as I can tell, it is impossible. Cold start on the breeder really hurts the ability to replenish itself. If the heat effect on breeding is linear, and I suspect it is, cold start cuts it capability in half. If it is geometric, then it would be much much more detrimental.

http://www.talonfiremage.pwp.b…2=1k101010114110101001013 - I like this design, and I suspect there is a heat sweet spot where it will last a full cycle and deliver full enriched cells at the end. 2.33 energy eff with 70 eu/t, breeder eff 5 x 3 cells. It's still a mark II at 5k heat, but its a mark IV at 6k. I think the sweet spot is probably @ 5k, no way to be sure without trying. Thats not a cold start though.

Sameish design with a cold start: http://www.talonfiremage.pwp.b…o=1m101010114010101001010

So if your stuck on a cold start it seems there are certain mathematical facts. Greater than 2 energy efficiency requires 3u minimum. Energy gains max out at ~70 / adjacent uranium if the parts are near melting when the cycle finishes. The maximum cooling you can fit in a reactor is 40 cooling cells, + 33 external cooling for 73 cooling total. The total heat for 54 parts + 6 chamber hull is 700,000 heat tolerance. At 10,000 ticks, 70 excess heat would melt everything. If this theoretical 40 cooling 14 dispenser reactor with no uranium somehow gained heat, it would take 143 total heat for it to melt in a cycle. If it can melt a max cooling reactor, it can melt anything so 143 is above the cap for a cold start mark 2, and can be considered a rough maximum. Replacing a dispenser lowers the heat max by one, replacing a cooling cell replaces the heat max by 2.

With 67% you can get even breeding/consumption with a 3u/4 receiving isotope config. 3u / 3i if you put one of the isotopes next to 2 u in the corner config. It took me a while to hash this out, but here it is http://www.talonfiremage.pwp.b…e=1l101010114010101001010 . This is everything you asked for, with one catch. you have to be there at the 2/3 mark to switch out the full isotope with a depleted one, then the following cycle, @ the 1/3 mark to switch the other 2. I think you said you want a lazyboy. If you have to stop in in the middle, you might as well be running a mark IV, right?

If you want fire and forget mark 2 style, there are break points for energy gain. 20, 33, 50, 100, basically between any of those 2 numbers, the lower number is all you get. 70% energy gain is the same as 50% if you leave the full one in the reactor, so any gains above 50% energy are wasted. Lowering our expecations of energy gains means there needs to be more isotopes recieving those gains. the 3 contiguous needs to touch Isotopes 6 times instead of 4. a corner config gives a requirement of 5 isotopes. That leaves only 2 spaces next to the uranium, so heat generated can only be reduced in one config, with the exposed U elbow next to coolants. http://www.talonfiremage.pwp.b…b=1k101010114010101001010 is the best I can come up with, it falls short of what you want as a mark IV. It will melt. it is still too hot. With the ability to magically place components outside the grid, the perfect ratio of dispensers to coolant cells is 4:1. Lets pretend all the spaces fall in a best case, just to see if its possible. 8 slots for U and I leaves 46 for D and C. 10 Dispensers, 36 coolant cells. 60 excess heat. even if heat was magically dispensed to 46 coolant cells, with 3u and 5i, it would still be 50 excess heat and still melt down before a full cycle. Too much heat in theoretical better than best cases. It is not possible.

So you have a choice. Mark IV, Mark II with timed check ins (babysitting), or a heat up phase for a 3u 3i config. I'm gonna do the math on the last, because it intruiges me.

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