[Suggestion] Lower wind mill EU at which they break

  • Currently Wind Mills are the endgame power generators: they cost only 6 iron ore and 2 tin ore (plus some other stuff you usually have plenty off) and produce 3.33 EU/t if placed at the correct height at zero cost beside the initial cable line and HV transformer. Compared to a nuclear power plant, you need about 21 wind mills to generate the same output as a Mk I reactor, but once you have them, you will never have to pay any kind of cost to keep them running, in contrast to the reactor which requires a constant supply of uranium.


    While I like wind mills in general, I think the average output is too high. But instead of lowering them in general I think just lowering the effective EU at which they have a chance to break down to 1.5 EU would bring them in line with the other generators. This would have a safe wind mill produce about 1 EU on average, which feels right compared to solar/water generators, but still give you the option to have them produce more. But if you do, you need to repair them every now and then which effectively gives them a resource they "consume" to generate power beyond that point.

  • WHO DISTURBS MY SLUMBER!!!


    I really really REALLY doubt you did your math right a safe wind mill by the most generouse estimates generates an average of like 1.66 and thats if you build a stupid tall ugly space elevator like tower. that sort of power is balanced by 2 things first the previously mentioned height at which these must be set up and second the fact that they BREAK these things are basically fueled by IRON the most valuable item in ic2

    true balance is impossible in video games the best one can hope for is to make it really hard to guess which of 2 choices are better.
    and remember kids "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF JOKES!"

  • NEXT!

    1. OMG CREEPER RUN AWAY!
    2. Go away, you creeper wierdo!
    3. What ever, I'll just go around.
    4. Hup, over their heads I go!
    5. Okay Mister living grenade, I'm going to knock you into those skeletons, and I'll follow through with a nano saber. Understood? FOR THE ALMIGHTLY DRAGON LORD!

  • If we reduce the power of the Windmill, it would be more and more useless compared to Solar Pannel.
    Thinking too that when using RP, you can refill Watermill with machine/pipes without using your hands, and it produce 4EU/t for 1 gen and 6 wooden plank ... (2 wooden plank= 4 stick, of course)


    Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
    NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

  • Quote

    they cost only 6 iron ore and 2 tin ore (plus some other stuff you usually have plenty off) and produce 3.33 EU/t if placed at the correct height at zero cost beside the initial cable line and HV transformer.


    I'm sorry, I stopped reading at the underlined part... usually because that 'other stuff' is more expensive than you think...


    Don't compare one world of resource prosperity to the 'game balance' of a single generator. I think this is also part of the misguided logic against all other forms of renewable energy...


    Can we please ban all 'X is OP' posts now? It's almost like I'm playing WoW or SC2 again... X(

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.


  • I'm sorry, I stopped reading at the underlined part... usually because that 'other stuff' is more expensive than you think...


    Don't compare one world of resource prosperity to the 'game balance' of a single generator. I think this is also part of the misguided logic against all other forms of renewable energy...


    Can we please ban all 'X is OP' posts now? It's almost like I'm playing WoW or SC2 again... X(

    this time it seems to be isolated to a single individual who has a history of not knowing what he is talking about so i don't think having the devs regulate balance posts is necessary yet.


    Two: ok pay attention and you might learn something. I'm guessing you built a wind mill and tested the line with an EU reader, got back an odd result, and instead of looking it up on the wiki you jumped to conclusions again. so here is how windmills work; the windmills instantaneous eu/t (what the eu meter shows you) fluctuates between 0-6eu/t at any given moment with it leaning more towards the higher or lower end of the scale depending on the effective height of the windmill. what you are proposing is that the windmill will break if the instantaneous eu/t goes above 1.5eu/t if that happens the long term eu/t of a safe windmill will drop to an avaerage of less than .25 eu/t under the must IDEAL conditions now does this sound like a good thing to you?


    if you said NO then congrats you learned something and saved your self from looking like a noobish idiot by recognizing your mistakes. WELCOME TO THE COMMUNITY! :D


    if you said YES and still think windmills are OP then GET LOST AND TAKE IT UP WITH YOUR SERVER ADMIN! :cursing:

    true balance is impossible in video games the best one can hope for is to make it really hard to guess which of 2 choices are better.
    and remember kids "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF JOKES!"

  • Step 1: Decompile IC2 code
    Step 2: Look up formula for wind mills in the code
    Step 3: do reverse math to figure out that the optimal height for a wind mill is 195
    Step 4: Build a wind tower of 12 mills and measure the EU output to be 40 EU/t avg as expected.
    Step 5: Learn that wind mills are indeed very powerful and post about in the forum
    Step 6: Wonder if I will get a diamond for every poster in this forum who posts "get a clue!" without having a clue themselves and where to build that diamond palace...

    • Official Post

    Step 1: Decompile IC2 code
    Step 2: Look up formula for wind mills in the code
    Step 3: do reverse math to figure out that the optimal height for a wind mill is 195
    Step 4: Build a wind tower of 12 mills and measure the EU output to be 40 EU/t avg as expected.
    Step 5: Learn that wind mills are indeed very powerful and post about in the forum
    Step 6: Wonder if I will get a diamond for every poster in this forum who posts "get a clue!" without having a clue themselves and where to build that diamond palace...

    If you already decompiled it, could you please send it to me? [By PM] I would like to take a look into wind mills and other stuff formulas for engineering :P


    After looking into it i will say if its really worth nerfing this. [I'm pretty sure it is not]

  • Step 1: Decompile IC2 code
    Step 2: Look up formula for wind mills in the code
    Step 3: do reverse math to figure out that the optimal height for a wind mill is 195
    Step 4: Build a wind tower of 12 mills and measure the EU output to be 40 EU/t avg as expected.
    Step 5: Learn that wind mills are indeed very powerful and post about in the forum
    Step 6: Wonder if I will get a diamond for every poster in this forum who posts "get a clue!" without having a clue themselves and where to build that diamond palace...

    You didn't calculate in the weather (x1.5 when it's thundering).
    Plus a wind mills output isn't constant.
    Plus the average isn't 3.33 but 1.66.
    http://forum.industrial-craft.…ad&postID=56732#post56732


    Moving on more on topic:
    Averagely, windmills produce 1.66 EU/t
    Averagely, solar panels produce (1 * 12 + 8 * 0) / 20 = 0,6 EU/t (calculating full day & night).
    Meaning, at optimum height windmills are about 2,8 times as good as solars.
    But it's a big hassle getting the power down, and their placement is way more difficult.
    With forestry you could up it to 2 EU/t averagely though... with a constantly active rainmaker.

  • this is what i'm talking about Two you jump to conclusions and post fixes for things that are not broken cause you didn't do enough research and now people who do have a clue are setting you straight(though you seem to be improving). why did you not look up the work that others have done crunching the numbers? even if your findings are accurate you should have posted it as a bug not a nerf because why would the devs intentionally make the wind mills as powerful as you claim?

    true balance is impossible in video games the best one can hope for is to make it really hard to guess which of 2 choices are better.
    and remember kids "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF JOKES!"

  • ... because why would the devs intentionally make the wind mills as powerful as you claim?


    They may not have know, the dev team isn't perfect and what they thought was working fine, if fact could have worked WAY too much fine than they intended.

  • They may not have know, the dev team isn't perfect and what they thought was working fine, if fact could have worked WAY too much fine than they intended.

    exactly if the windmills are not working as intended (which would be the only logical explanation for Two's finding if they are accurate) then they should be reported as bugged not OP.

    true balance is impossible in video games the best one can hope for is to make it really hard to guess which of 2 choices are better.
    and remember kids "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF JOKES!"

  • exactly if the windmills are not working as intended (which would be the only logical explanation for Two's finding if they are accurate) then they should be reported as bugged not OP.


    You missunderstood, they may have been working as intended way more than they should and it would not be a bug. Not everything OP related its because of a bug you know.


    A Bug is a faulty code that causes error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways.


    You people have been jumping on the gun way too much when someone even so much mention anything related to a nerf (Especially when a green gen its involved) and its getting annoying.


    And since this is just a number tweeking request and not a new mechanic, i don't see whats the problem in seeing if the windmills are actually producing more energy than they should.

  • You didn't calculate in the weather (x1.5 when it's thundering).
    Plus a wind mills output isn't constant.
    Plus the average isn't 3.33 but 1.66.
    http://forum.industrial-craft.…ad&postID=56732#post56732


    First line of the link says "There's a random value from 0-30 which represents the windstrength." According to the code it says "windStrength = 10 + Random.nextInt(10)" which is a value between 10-19.
    So there is either more hidden mechanic that I wasn't able to find or your information is outdated.


    You people have been jumping on the gun way too much when someone even so much mention anything related to a nerf (Especially when a green gen its involved) and its getting annoying.


    Absolutely second that! This seems to be a major issue with this forum. My suggestion is a suggestion. It will not force the devs to implement that, not even to read it if they don't want to. They can take it as a hint and check whether or not it is true and even if it is true, they still decide how they want the game to be. If they want wind mills to be very powerful then thats they way it will be. If they don't want that but feel that 1.5 is not the right number, they will use a different one. The idea that the devs are mindlessly implementing every suggestion on this forum as written is disturbing and kind of insulting.


    If everyone pick up their guns and shoot at every suggestion made in this forum, people with less "shitstorm" resistance will never show up in this forum ever again. The result will be less ideas, less advancement of IC2 and in the end less fun for everyone. If you would instead give constructive feedback, like presenting a calculation why I am wrong or probably right, this would help the idea to evolve (or be dumped in case I am wrong) and save time from the devs they would have to spent on evaluating the idea.

  • First line of the link says "There's a random value from 0-30 which represents the windstrength." According to the code it says "windStrength = 10 + Random.nextInt(10)" which is a value between 10-19.
    So there is either more hidden mechanic that I wasn't able to find or your information is outdated.

    Yeah that's the initial windStrength. Windstrength is constantly changing.
    In onTickInGame you can see once every 128 ticks updateWind() is called:


    When wind = 30, upchance = 0 and it can only go down, when wind = 0, downchance = 0 and it can only go up.

  • Quote

    And since this is just a number tweeking request and not a new mechanic, i don't see whats the problem in seeing if the windmills are actually producing more energy than they should.

    It IS a mechanic change because he's asking the devs to change the numbers on the Generator. The config. file works easily to avoid such hassles, as people can self-nerf said generators w/o mod developer intervention. This way, people can restrict what power sources they don't want with ease...


    Since I know you'll lose on a social life with the inability to badger people with your POV with such post, it's still an action that needs to be done: "there is a config., use it"...


    And if it's an SMP problem.. then find a different server or host your own with your own rules...


    Quote

    If everyone pick up their guns and shoot at every suggestion made in this forum, people with less "shitstorm" resistance will never show up in this forum ever again. The result will be less ideas, less advancement of IC2 and in the end less fun for everyone. If you would instead give constructive feedback, like presenting a calculation why I am wrong or probably right, this would help the idea to evolve (or be dumped in case I am wrong) and save time from the devs they would have to spent on evaluating the idea.

    Save it... if people don't have the backbone to be in forums, then they shouldn't post in them. IC has existed LONG before it was popular, and a single person was in charge with the progression of ideas and development. Want to know what's changed with that? Nothing. Alba has/is in charge of the mod's development. NOTHING will change that, and it's his direction for the mod that centers its development. You mistake his generosity for allowing suggestions as your 'ability' to influence mod design...


    So unless you want to code your own version of this industrial mod, then I SUGGEST that you deal with that fact...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

  • Quote

    It IS a mechanic change because he's asking the devs to change the numbers on the Generator.


    It is not, at best its a "mechanic" tweek, but that it. It will for the most part be the same piece of shit, only with lower resistance of breaking.


    You still need to place them high for them to produce energy.
    You still need to building with space to produce high amounts of energy.
    You still need to use cable to send the energy down.
    You still get bonuses from wind and thunderstorm.
    They will still break down when they produce too much energy, the threshold for that will only be lower.


    Thats hardly a mechanic change.


    And there is no problem whatsoever in bringing the attention of the devs to something you may have found to be problematic, but in the end its their choice if they will do anything at all with it, its their own fucking game for fucks sakes. And as long as neither you or i officially become part of the dev team, whatever we say matters little to NOTHING. (But that does not stop us from saying anything isn't it?)

    • Official Post

    You still need to place them high for them to produce energy.(True)
    You still need to building with space to produce high amounts of energy.(False, using tower design you can produce high amounts of with little space)
    You still need to use cable to send the energy down.(True, i had to use 2 and 1/2 stacks to JUST send my energy to base on ground)
    You still get bonuses from wind and thunderstorm. (True, but it influences wind math negatively [if you want to wind mills never break])
    They will still break down when they produce too much energy, the threshold for that will only be lower.(True, maximum Y for tower design is 181, it is kinda low)