All I'm saying is that if you have that much power it's likely you also have the resources to build a grid that can use it the way you want (be it parallel GF cables or a storage bank at each machine).
Resources were never a problem I listed in the first place.
I will add, however, that space IS a problem. Now instead of a neat line of machines, I'll have to have some ugly enormous line of cables going everywhere.
I for one prefer this system. A few transformer upgrades in each machine and you quickly raise max EU/t far above EU/t cost. I supply 512 EU/t to my machine shop, the 512 line is split into 2, so I send 256 to each side of the room. Every machine has 2 transformer upgrades and 3 or 4 overclockers. None of them explode, none of them receive too little energy. Once I put my max 6 overclockers in every machine, I will probably need to upgrade to 3 transformers per machine and boost the input to 2048. Simple.
I admit its more complicated than the old system, but I think that's a good thing.
I for one prefer this system. A few transformer upgrades in each machine and you quickly raise max EU/t far above EU/t cost. I supply 512 EU/t to my machine shop, the 512 line is split into 2, so I send 256 to each side of the room. Every machine has 2 transformer upgrades and 3 or 4 overclockers. None of them explode, none of them receive too little energy. Once I put my max 6 overclockers in every machine, I will probably need to upgrade to 3 transformers per machine and boost the input to 2048. Simple.
I'm missing something. How much power can each machine accept? 512EU/t? Even so, once you near your limit of 3689EU/t, you'll have to run a separate glass fiber cable from your power source to every two machines.
I suppose if they add some higher-tier cables that can accept 32,000EU/t or 64,000EU/t, and also allow transformer upgrades to stack indefinitely that could be an acceptable solution to this issue.
QuoteI admit its more complicated than the old system, but I think that's a good thing.
Complicated is only a good thing if it leads to creative, interesting solutions. Otherwise it's just pointless tedium. What interesting solutions have you thought of?
...This?
Won't work. It only accepts at one point, so as long as cables are limited to 8,192 EU/t, that's the limit of the P2P Tunnel.
Each frequency is limited to 1 input with any number of outputs, so just have each storage output at a different freq and you can have it all in one line.
($5 says a dev will find a way to nerf it)
Display MoreI'm missing something. How much power can each machine accept? 512EU/t? Even so, once you near your limit of 3689EU/t, you'll have to run a separate glass fiber cable from your power source to every two machines.
I suppose if they add some higher-tier cables that can accept 32,000EU/t or 64,000EU/t, and also allow transformer upgrades to stack indefinitely that could be an acceptable solution to this issue.
Complicated is only a good thing if it leads to creative, interesting solutions. Otherwise it's just pointless tedium. What interesting solutions have you thought of?
You realize that a machine does not suck up the maximum it is rated to take right? A machine has a cost per tick and a maximum voltage per tick, if it is exposed to voltage greater than it can handle, it explodes. If it is exposed to an acceptable voltage, it siphons off its cost per tick and sends the rest down the line. So if I have an array of 6 macerators on the same line with no overclockers the entire line of macerators will cost a grand total of 12 EU/t. They are rated for 32 EU/t. So long as I send at least 12 EU/t and no more than 32 EU/t down the line, they are all powered, none explode. So let's say I have some combination of machines on the line that requires 50 EU/t (TOTAL) to run, there is NO WAY to supply power to all of them, unless you give them all a transformer upgrade. Once they all have a transformer upgrade, you cans send at least 50 EU/t and no more than 128 EU/t down the line and they will receive the requisite power and not explode. So now I start over clocking these machines and they require 300 EU/t to be powered, so I have to install 1 more transformer upgrade in each machine and send at least 300 EU/t and no more than 512 EU/t down the line. Lets say I keep on adding machines and overclockers to the same line and end up requiring 10000 EU/t to power them all. This means I have done something retarded and maybe should have designed my machine shop better. I could send 8096 EU/t down the line and it would power most of them, all of them if they are not running simultaneously. With that many machines/overclockers, I sincerely doubt they would all run simultaneously anyway.
When actually playing the game, I don't bother with any of this math. If I notice that the machines at the end of the line are being underpowered, I make more transformer upgrades and upgrade my power supply. Or I split them and run a separate line to each. If you need to run glass fiber cable to every pair of machines, then you have overclocked them to the point that they are probably completing an operation in one tick, or you are overclocking the mass fabricator, in which case, what did you expect?
I hope this helps you understand how the wiring system has changed.
Of course. That's what I always do in any world I use IC2 in. Why is that a problem? Overclockers are in the game for a reason are they not?
For starters, for the amount of materials you've spent on the overclockers you could build several machines for processing and use less overclockers and still reach higher output at lower energy cost.
I think it's quite silly to make arguments for whether or not the old or the new system is "realistic". Anyone who knows even basic concepts of how real electricity works understands that IC2's e-net has absolutely nothing to do with it, and uses terms like "voltage" only as a proxy. It never made any claims of being a simulation of reality, either. This hasn't changed between the old and the new system.
What changed was that you no longer have this silly disconnect between packet size limits and actual power transfer, which coupled together with packet-based (not power-based) loss over distance confused the heck out of every newcomer. It was an artificial, unnecessary complexity, a corner that development had painted itself into. The new system gets rid of that by setting packet size equal to power. It's a massive simplification for the player. Less different terms to lern, less different numbers to keep in mind, no idiosyncratic behavior where you can route an amount of power in one way and have everything explode, but route a hundred times that amount of power in a different way over the exact same cable to the exact same machines without causing a squeak.
There's now just power. One key attribute. Everything else is irrelevant.
Of course, now it's no longer the newbies that are confused, it's the old established players who are so used to exploiting the idiosyncratic behavior of the e-net to transmit any amount of power over any kind of connection (another reason to better not bring up the realism argument, by the way). The new system shuts off that loophole. You now need to build differently.
Also, in case nobody noticed, not only storage got bumped up in tiers. Cables did, too - copper does 128 EU/t natively, not 32 EU/t. And machines as well. You macerator can handle 128 EU/t just fine with zero transformer upgrades, and 512 with just one. I've set it up like that in my world, there's no issue at all. In fact, I only know two things in the entire mod that will blow up on more than 32 EU/t, and that's the batbox and the luminator. Everything else I have tried is at least MV. The thermal centrifuge even does HV by default.
For starters, for the amount of materials you've spent on the overclockers you could build several machines for processing and use less overclockers and still reach higher output at lower energy cost.
You can always do that, but it makes things more complex. That's the trade-off of overclockers. I feel this is getting off-topic though. The topic is the new energy system, not overclockers.
I think it's quite silly to make arguments for whether or not the old or the new system is "realistic". Anyone who knows even basic concepts of how real electricity works understands that IC2's e-net has absolutely nothing to do with it, and uses terms like "voltage" only as a proxy. It never made any claims of being a simulation of reality, either. This hasn't changed between the old and the new system.
I know a thing or two about how real electricity works and it seems to correspond pretty well to voltage, current, and power.
QuoteDisplay MoreWhat changed was that you no longer have this silly disconnect between packet size limits and actual power transfer, which coupled together with packet-based (not power-based) loss over distance confused the heck out of every newcomer. It was an artificial, unnecessary complexity, a corner that development had painted itself into. The new system gets rid of that by setting packet size equal to power. It's a massive simplification for the player. Less different terms to lern, less different numbers to keep in mind, no idiosyncratic behavior where you can route an amount of power in one way and have everything explode, but route a hundred times that amount of power in a different way over the exact same cable to the exact same machines without causing a squeak.
There's now just power. One key attribute. Everything else is irrelevant.
Of course, now it's no longer the newbies that are confused, it's the old established players who are so used to exploiting the idiosyncratic behavior of the e-net to transmit any amount of power over any kind of connection (another reason to better not bring up the realism argument, by the way). The new system shuts off that loophole. You now need to build differently.
Also, in case nobody noticed, not only storage got bumped up in tiers. Cables did, too - copper does 128 EU/t natively, not 32 EU/t. And machines as well. You macerator can handle 128 EU/t just fine with zero transformer upgrades, and 512 with just one. I've set it up like that in my world, there's no issue at all. In fact, I only know two things in the entire mod that will blow up on more than 32 EU/t, and that's the batbox and the luminator. Everything else I have tried is at least MV. The thermal centrifuge even does HV by default.
Aha! I knew someone would bring this up, because it's complete and utter nonsense. The previous system was extremely simple. It's the new system that's more complex. Players NEVER needed to know any of this nonsense about packet sizes except for calculating power loss from cables, which is what should've been the only thing removed in the new system. In every other application, all players needed to know were two things: EU/t, and Voltage rating. There were never multiple numbers, and you never needed to learn any of these stupid terms in the first place.
All of that bullshit with EU/p and p/t was created by the wiki editors. I repeat, it was the WIKI, not the system. Take this piece of crap article for example:
QuoteUnlike Real Life™, there is no actual "voltage" in IC². EU travels in "packets" through wires with near-infinite speed and has smart pathfinding (somewhat like RP2 pneumatic tubes). Packets are measured in size (in EU/p) and volume (EU). (Size being the amount of energy it contains as it leaves a storage unit, volume being how much energy is left in each packet after inefficient cable usage).
If redstone power is not applied, it consumes 128 EU in up to 128 EU/p and converts them into up to four 32 EU/p. All conversions are limited to one per tick. (Converting 2048 EU into 4x512 EU is considered one conversion.)
If redstone power is applied, it consumes 128 EU in up to 128 EU/p and converts them into one 128 EU/p. All conversions are limited to one per tick.
Introducing the player to packet sizes and all of this crap is completely unnecessary and only a source of confusion. This whole section could be shortened to:
"The LV Transformer outputs up to 128EU/t. It outputs Low Voltage normally, or Medium Voltage with a redstone signal."
Voila. Problem solved. All the player needs to know is EU/t, and voltage rating. Dead simple. Now it's not simple. Before all you have to tell a player is not to hook up a machine to a source of a higher voltage rating. Now you've gotta explain to them why connecting their xth generator all of a sudden made everything blow up, or why hooking two transformers makes things blow up, or give them the formula for how many things they can have on a line, and all this unnecessary garbage complexity that comes with the new system.
The argument that this was to make things simpler is a straw-man.
My understanding is that the e-net gets a redo mainly to make it less taxing and to fix stupid things like pushing thousands of EU/t through copper cable by using tens or hundreds of parallel packets.
My understanding is that the e-net gets a redo mainly to make it less taxing and to fix stupid things like pushing thousands of EU/t through copper cable by using tens or hundreds of parallel packets.
Then it should only affect wires, not machines.
Then it should only affect wires, not machines.
Could you elaborate how would it look like to only affect wires and not machines?
Requiring 10,000 EU/t only means you have three machines with maxed-out overclockers. That's not unreasonable at all. And of course I want to run them all at once. Why wouldn't I? I can certainly see myself macerating cobblestone into sand, then cooking it into glass while my compressor is compressing plant balls from my auto-farm.
Of course. That's what I always do in any world I use IC2 in. Why is that a problem? Overclockers are in the game for a reason are they not?
So just to make sure I understand, your issue is that you're particular playstyle is no longer supported and you don't want to change?
Could you elaborate how would it look like to only affect wires and not machines?
Have wires able to carry only X amount of EU per tick regardless of packets, but machines would accept any packet size up to their limit.
Have wires able to carry only X amount of EU per tick regardless of packets, but machines would accept any packet size up to their limit.
Uhh, that's pretty much exactly how the current experimental IC2 e-net works.
Uhh, that's pretty much exactly how the current experimental IC2 e-net works.
Machines explode if they receive too much EU/tick. Packets don't exist.
QuoteSo just to make sure I understand, your issue is that you're particular playstyle is no longer supported and you don't want to change?
That's what I got as well, but I'm also having a rough time grasping the changes to the E-Net, and a little reluctant to start a new world till the math in my head makes more sense (and I've been playing this mod since Minecraft Beta)...
I think a diagram is needed (for me, at least) to understand:
What packet ratings are passed currently by transformers (per tier)
How cable loss now affects EU packets, and
The default EU/t acceptance level of all the machines
BTW, if you want a realistic perception on this new system, look up the term "Ampacity". Basically, it combines the factors of resistance, voltage, and current into a nice variable to set your systems against. And yes, if you exceed ampacity, the equipment will go first before the wire does (unless you have a circuit breaker in the line to hopefully save said electronics)...
