It's not about playstyle - it's about the effects of that playstyle on a server's performance.
I'm all for "play your own way" and I don't like it when others tell me how to play - but if you're on someone's server, they set the rules for the enjoyment of everyone.
I'd hope that common courtesy is still a valued trait nowadays.
It might not make a difference, but what version of Forge are you using?
I only ask because I'm using the same version of the other mods and have a Small Electric Engine (manually crafted last night) succesffully powering a machine in my home.
It also invalidates Saul's "Eloraam will squash all competition" argument as well. 
Indeed- I'm inclined to agree with you guys that the underlying issue is the ability to create scrap at all. Not that it's imbalanced in and of itself - UU-Matter is still pretty expensive even with scrap - but if the recycler encourages people to set up mechanisms that bring a server to its knees, then the server admins understandablyh want to address it in some way.
I suppose it makes sense - if you blacklist cobble, they'll turn to cane farms or something. But those things don't seem to have as detrimental an effect on server performance.
But what other reason would they have for using cobble gens? Unless you're recycling that cobble into scrap or into EMC in Equivalent Exchange, I can't really see a reason for wanting to make it in those quantities.
No, it's relevant to YOU Headhunter.
Eloraam didn't make it about her license (until after the fact, perhaps)
It's got nothing to do with me - if Eloraam's license didn't support the action, she would not have been able to act as she did. And THAT is why it's relevant to this discussion.
You may say it's irrelevant, but the fact is, it's the only thing that's relevant - the "court of public opinion" is immaterial to protection of one's intellectual property.
QuoteMy issue all along was about Eloraam pulling the sub-mod, BECAUSE IT INTERFERES WITH HER OWN PLANS.
SO. WHAT.
Even if that's the ONLY reason, it's reason enough. It's her mod, she's quite entitled to make that choice. As I said, she doesn't need a reason AT ALL.
QuoteAgain, it's not about 'entitlement' to me. But I will cop to feelings of obligation... not to me, butto the community, and that obligation exists so long as the project is publicly active.
So, because they give you something for free, and ask nothing in return, they owe you something more? (By "you" I mean "the community").
You can't say that you feel they owe the "community" without lumping yourself in with that community. And since the community has not appointed you its spokesperson, in truth you speak only for yourself. So it's clear that, despite your protestations, you do feel that they owe [/i]you[/i] something. Care to explain why?
QuoteThe only entitlement I feel is as a part of the community, and considering the number of people in the community my 'share' of that entitlement is so miniscule that I don't really view it as worth consideration.
Then stop talking about it, unless you've been chosen as Community Liaison - because you can only speak for yourself and your own expectations.
Stop trying to act like you're speaking for others, but not for yourself - if you don't believe the things you say, then they are meaningless.
QuoteYou asked why I feel this way? Because I am a developer myself and I feel a sense of obligation to my users.
Once more, that doesn't give you the right to extend that expectation onto others. You can't possibly tell me why other people should be required to act as you do.
QuoteAnd what would it take? An explicit declaration of 'I am the user that PM'd Saul_Goode. He has my full support and his words are mine by proxy.'?
Well, that would certainly do it - but it's not necessary since no one has come to the thread and even expressed the same opinion as you do.
QuoteSo... you're not skeptical that I got a PM, but you are skeptical that it's in support of my opinion...? How does that work, I got a random PM and I'm just saying it's supportive in nature?
I phrased it exactly as intended. I explicitly stated that I am skeptical of the support you've received. That means, you may have gotten PMs from someone (likely singular) that expressed agreement, but those individuals have yet to come forth and express that opinion in public. Generally, that would mean they don't fully believe those principles, are ashamed to admit it, or are not confident that they can defend their views from public scrutiny. So "silent" support is meaningless, if your avowed aim is public awareness of the issue.
QuoteRead the thread title... 'Discususion', had I intended it to be a debate I would have titled it appropriately. A debate is just what it got turned into.
Very well - it's still not a poetry slam, and we're not here to write prose - so can the "literary devices" and stick to the facts. I know it may be hard for you to use those facts to support your opinion, but if you want "literary devices", save it for your MySpace page.
QuoteNo, if it was all in context I wouldn't have had to start this post out by pointing out the the word 'license' didn't even appear in this thread until you brought it up in point #8. If it was all in context I wouldn't still have a need for similes about murder and child-abuse.
Notwithstanding the relevance of the license to the matter, here is the "context":
[b]Eloraam has the right to do whatever she wants with her property, and to control its distribution AND USE in any way she sees fit - for whatever reason, or no reason at all[b].
You're in no way obligated to "like it"; you can choose not to use the product at all if you wish. Your "rights" as a consumer have not been trod upon in any way.
QuoteThe underlaying theme of my whole platform is Eloraams attitude before license even comes into it.
That's not a platform that has any relevance. Her "attitude" doesn't change her right to do as she pleases, nor does your disagreement make her wrong.
You're basically asking "what gives her the right to act as she did?", is that not correct?
Mojang does NOT however restrict people from extending their work the way that Eloraam does... kinda one of the points I've been trying to make. What was yours?
That Mojang does not restrict how developers control their product. Just because Mojang does it that way, others are in no way obligated to do the same. Clear enough?
QuoteAgain, this isn't about license agreements' like you keep going on and on about. This is about what Eloraam considers a threat to RedPower.
So I'll just skip all the parts that drone on about licenses...
Of course - skip all of the parts that are relevant, because they don't fit your perception. You want us to buy your notion that Eloraam considers this a "threat", but you've offered nothing to support the claim.
But even if it were true, what's it matter? As stated before, she has the right to exert that control for whatever reason... or even no reason at all.
QuoteNo, flaming me is when you make this more about past disagreements than the topic at hand. Attacking me is when you write-off things as 'Libertarian ideals you clearly don't understand'. It's a particular snide and flippant manner to the tone of your posts.
First of all, this isn't about "past disagreements" - it's about your historical tendency to act like you're entitled to something that you do not deserve. These developers do not owe you their continued support, nor do they owe you any explanation for their decisions. Yet you continue to behave as if they should be accountable to you.
As for "attacking" you, I must note to you that I am a registered member of the Libertarian Party - so it's clear that you do not understand what I was saying - nor do you understand the Libertarian ideal behind which you hide. You TALK as if you want to preserve indivudal freedom, but what you REALLY advocate is the freedom to do whatever YOU want, regardless of whose freedoms you trample in the process. You demand considerations that you're clearly unwilling to extend to those from whom you demand.
QuoteNot true, *I* am not the community, I am but one small part of the community. Just a tiny ant in the multitude... ...but an ant that carries a tiny little soapbox with him wherever he goes...
Then, you speak only for yourself - and thus, when you say:
QuoteDevelopers, I feel do have an obligation to the community- For at least as long as they decide to keep their project active and public.
... you are, whether you realize it or not, stating that you feel that you are entitled to something. If you do not understand the irrevocable relationship between the "obligation" of one party and the "entitlement" of another, then you do not even understand the words you use. One cannot have an "obligation" without owing something to another.
So, then, what do you feel developers owe you,, and why?
QuoteNot backpedaling at all and nothing like your skepticism backpedal.
I'm still skeptical of the "support" you claim to have received - because it's clear that it hasn't manifested itself here. How can I possibly "backpedal" on something that has yet to be revealed?
You made a claim but I've seen no evidence of it. Maybe you got PMs - but not from anyone who's willing to extend that support to you here, in public.
QuoteAnd it's not about equating it with anything, it's called a simile and it's a literary device @quote:wikipedia 'used to directly compare two different things.' DIFFERENT, not equal.
We're not interested in "literary devices" here. This is not a poetry slam, this is a debate. Stick to the facts, if you will.
Quotestop twisting things out of context to suit your ends, I would greatly appreciate it as it would save me A LOT of typing.
The problem is, you haven't GOT a context to "stick to". You revise your alleged position on the issue as necessary, to suit your latest attempt at a point.
QuoteAnd by 'off-topic' I meant that it was getting back into the 'license argument, which this isn't about, so yes, off-topic.
Not at all - the topic is about the validity of Eloraam's actions. In your own words:
QuoteMy goal with this post is to show that while Eloraam's reason's are understandable concerns, their validity is questionable.
Now, are you going to base that "validity" on your malleable opinion, or shall we just settle for the facts? You talk a lot about what's "right", but sadly, "right" is on her side here, not yours.
Quotediscussion is pointless when there is one person that insists on screaming down every person that tries to talk about anything other than what they want it to be about. It's not about her fucking license
I'm sorry - do you perceive this as "screaming"? I know you've adopted a lot of hyperbole in recent posts, but this is a new one.
You will never be convinced to accept anything that does not fit your worldview, and you haven't been able to convince anyone else that your interpretation is more valid than that of the author of the mod - so I'll ask you again: What are you trying to accomplish? And when do you intend to begin?
I'm not interested in an add-on by someone who's not adult enough to accept constructive criticism and exhibits such a blatant disregard for his audience.
But I'll leave that evaluation up to each individual, of course.
["on the spot"? not really, i've powered quarries fine with the forestry electric. Just stuffed them in the basement hooked to power and used power teleport pipes.
You'll need more than 4 of them to get the Quarry up to a decent speed. If you're using off-site power, you're better off doing so with larger engines. I use a bank of 3-4 combustion engines, or when using IC power I prefer a large or industrial engine.
The only suitable purpose I've found for a single Forestry electric engine is, in fact, for a single Forestry machine. If this is my selected means for providing power, I'm not going to waste materials teleporting 5 EU/t in.
If you're concerned with energy loss, stick with redstone engines to power pumps - 4 of them are sufficient for full volume.
While true, it seems this discussion is pointless, except for saying "Go Zipp! these are awesome!"
While true, your post has no more of a point, in fact.
Indeed - these arrays seem to be the one thing almost all sides can agree on!
Whatever reason one might have to think that solars are bad, this mod addresses it - the output is perfectly commensurate with the materials (that is to say, it is neither more nor less expensive than the basic IC solars of equivalent output) and it reduces the amount of eNet calculations, which reduces lag.
It's beyond me to see how anyone can reasonably disapprove.
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I don't think you'd like that. And I don't think you're going to like it when Alblaka sees this either.
OK, in case my picture didn't make it clear enough to you:
I just posted EVIDENCE that these items show up in NEI, including the crafting recipe. Was the picture not clear enough to you?
If it's not working for you, then something is installed incorrectly. But writing in large bold letters and reposting the same thing from the previous page is simply SPAM.
Stop throwing a tantrum when someone tells you that you've made a mistake. Be an adult about it.
the internet isnt safe for 12 year olds it seems im talking about *puts sunglasses on* YOU YEEEEEAAAHHAAAA
So you're the one who can't write, and he's the 12 year old?
How does it feel to be less articulate than a pre-teen? The impression others get of you on the Internet is solely based upon the words you use.
If you don't want people to think you're stupid or lazy, don't write like you're stupid or lazy.
If you want it to be worth people's time to read what you've written, take the time to write properly. Don't expect anyone to spend more time reading it than you did writing it.
Is ignoring posts with bad punctuation really that hard?
If your statement is to have any meaning, this thread should be locked. The OP is merely receiving deserved commentary on his presentation. Since there's nothing else in the original post to talk about, all we're left with is the unfavorable first impression - one which he has continued to reinforce.
The mod seems to be working fine with NEI, the engines are showing correctly. There's no "Bug" here - sounds like user error.
I am using the same versions of NEI, Minecraft, BuildCraft, IndustrialCraft and this mod as MagmaTung is using. Sounds like he's got something installed incorrectly.
If your town has a 'no loud noises after 10pm' ordinance you are still bound by that even if you don't expressly agree. It's about... precedent, I suppose.
In the context of this community- MayorMojang tabled a 'free to work with my work, just don't rip me off' motion. ChairmanAlblaka - Yay. ChairmanSpaceToad - Yay. ChairwomanEloraam - Nay.
So your argument basically states that you feel that because one person chooses to share his work, others are obligated to do the same?
So, if someone does volunteer work, does that mean no one should get paid to do that kind of work?
I'll point out one thing - even though Mojang permits mods, THEY are the only ones making any measurable income off of Minecraft. The fact that they have explicitly permitted ad-revenue generating links for mod content shows that they permit the distribution of such mods.
If you want to talk about precedent, then let's consider the real world instead of wobbly hypothetical examples. In the real world, one author's license cannot bind permitted derivative works to the same terms unless it is explicitly stated so. Mojang's license clearly states quite the opposite, in fact.
"Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, including selling them for money."
You may not think that Eloraam is complying with Mojang's license, but you probably haven't actually taken the time to read its Terms Of Use.
So if you don't actually understand the legal implications of Mojang's Terms of Use, you'd be better off not using that as an example - it actually refutes your agrument. If you don't feel that Eloraam's license is enforceable, take it up with Mojang and let them decide. But this is business, not religion - morality doesn't enter into it, and "right" and "wrong" are determined solely by the law, not by individuals. Besides which, your definition of "morality" is not one with which I agree. By your own statements, I can at the very least disregard your definition - but you're going so far as to claim that your determination of what's "right" and "moral" are absolute and should be enforced on others. Stop trying to hide behind some kind of Libertartian ideal that you don't understand. It comes down to this: You presume to interpet who has the right to do what, but you still refuse to apply that unilaterally.
And if you want to talk about being bound by ordinances, even if you expressly disagree? Welcome to Eloraam's license. Even if you don't agree with the terms, you're required to abide by them. Don't you just hate when people use your own statements to refute your points?
Quoteyou should be willing to respect the way using someone elses work allowed you to get where you are with your work.
She does so - by sharing her work with others. If you think that means she is not entitled to place restrictions on how her work is used, think again. She has to use Mojang's work in a certain way, and they are the sole determination of those terms. She has likewise extended the same consideration to the use of her work. In case you need me to break that down for you, both parties have said "This is my work, I alone decide how it's used, take it or leave it".
The law does not control how individuals must "share" the fruits of their creative labor with others, no matter how much you wish it to. There are laws that protect what one has created, but don't for a moment intepret them to be a mandate on the authors.
QuoteUm... it's not entitlement when it's taken in context? Once again, stop attacking me. If you want to discuss, that is fine by me... but stop flaming.
OK, so "flaming" is disagreeing with you, and "attacking" is "pointing out the ramifications of exactly what you said"? 
By the way, in what possible context could a declaration of an author's "obligation" to the community not be seen as entitlement?
You came right out and stated that you feel developers have an obligation to the community. You've also stated that you are speaking on behalf of the community. Therefore, you must feel that developers have an obligation to you. Ergo, you feel they owe you something. And even if you now claim that you speak only for yourself, then you still obviously expect that developers have an obligation to you.
The only possible alternative is that you neither mean nor believe what you are saying - in which case, you have no position at all. If so, please come right out and say so. If this has all been nothing but empty words, then the thread should just be locked.
QuoteAnd I asked once, I'll ask again... what have I backpedaled on and is it anything like your backpedaling of your skepticism? State it so I can address it.
You said before that you don't feel like Alblaka (and Eloraam) owe you anything - but here, you have explicitly stated that they do. Maybe you don't see it as backpedalling, because you can't see the meaning of what you say.
You continue to modify your position and the direction of your argument in a vain attempt to keep the high ground you never held in the first place. Now, you're trying to equate control of individual creative rights with murder and child abuse - and you want to tell me that I'm off topic? 
Sharing their creation with you does not in any way obligate them to do anything. Do you think it entitles you to ongoing updates? To input on their creative process? To determine the implementation and interpretation of their license? You're entitled to one, and only one thing - your opinion. But I must regretfully inform you that your opinion is not enforceable in any way, no one is bound by it, and when your opinion differs from the way Things Really Are, then Reality wins. And you're not entitled to a soapbox upon which to express it - meaning, if the host of a forum chooses to restrict how you can express it, they are entitled to do so. You can always establish your own place to express whatever opinion you desire, without restriction.
QuoteI've always just gotten a feeling of competition from this.
Since it's possible to use all three mods together, and since there is no "market share" to conted for, this cannot be seen as competition. The fact that they have all adopted (and contributed to) Forge shows that it is quite the opposite - it is, in fact, a cooperative effort. And, in case you haven't noticed, the "competition" of ideas is what drives innovation. Without competition, invention gives way to stagnation.
What have you got against competition? Especially when you benefit from it? By your definition, all mods are "competing" with Vanilla Minecraft - yet you use some of them.
QuoteAnd why do attempt's to unite them have to be squashed?
Because they are individual creative efforts. Because each developer has a different view as to how the same things should be accomplished. And why should any of them have to change the way they want to do something just because another developer wants to do it differently? Or, worse yet, because you feel it should have been done differently?
QuoteWhy does the most challenging part of my game play have to be the part where I try to fit 5 different grids into my walls?[/i]
The obvious answer is "Because you're trying to do 5 different things". None of them requires the others for use, one could quite easily play without any or all of them. Taken together, the possibliities and capabilities are increased - and the complexity naturally follows.
Developers, in my view, make the same agreement- If you're going to be involved in the community then you have to be working for the community.
This is exactly what I spoke of when I talked about the attitude of entitlement. When I said "Alblaka doesn't owe you anything" (and now "Eloraam doesn't owe you anything either"), you act like that's not what it's about, but this statement makes it crystal clear.
You have an expectation that developers owe you something and that use of their work gives you the right to hold them accountable. We saw it in the previous thread, and now you've come right out and said it again.
It's one thing for me to say that the Emperor has no clothes - but now you've said it in your own words. How are you going to backpedal from this one?
you sir are a heartless dick
And we're the "assholes"?
I think this says all that needs to be said.
As for Kane's comment - consider the source.
If any of my designers had this attitude towards clients, they would be seeking new employment.
Are you the sort of employer that thinks you have a right to govern what your designers do in their free time, when you're not paying them?
Because that's what this situation is. We're not "clients", we don't pay a cent for the mod and they owe us nothing. They don't work for us and they're not employed by us.
Where did you ever get the impression that using the mod makes you the boss, or puts you on the Board of Directors?
Let's use a better metaphor: If a guest in my house started talking like you do, I'd ask him to leave. (And by "ask" I mean "demand"). Fortunately for you, Alblaka is more lenient than that.
The Forestry electric engines are good for on-the-spot usage, which of course means they need their own dedicated on-site power supply (like a small solar flower or array).
But they only fill one niche - they're not good for more robust field applications like a Quarry. This is where things like the Energy Link come in handy - or the Engine Generators from PowerConverters when using a multi-Miner setup.
But the electric engines from the Crossover are ideal for fixed powerplants that can supply power on-site (or remotely via teleport pipes).
So I prefer to have both add-ons. Like Jayne says "I get kinda excitable as to my options".
