Posts by Saul_Goode

I'll take this opportunity to pipe back in before the thread finally goes far enough to outlive it's usefulness and someone(s) get it locked...

...aside from the parts from the thread that go around with the same points that don't really apply to the spirit of the OP, below are some more recent comments I feel like addressing directly...

Quote from Snowpaw

When discussing someone's attitude, not the rules, but the attitude with which they state and enforce said rules, it does not fall under any obligations or promises dictated by one's position or vocation, but from normal levels of respect due every human being who has not proven themselves to be a complete idiot. Meaning, I feel that Alablaka DOES owe people something: Treating them nicely. Everyone owes everyone else that. Stating it the way it has been stated and enforcing it the way it's been said that it's been enforced is not nice, it's harsh. More harsh than it needs to be.

^ THIS ^ - was my point.

Quote from HeadHunter67

If that's an obligation, it must be a mutual one. Keep in mind that we all benefit from the work the IC2 team puts into this mod, and they ask nothing from us except our patience - though they also appreciate our gratitude.

Those who demonstrate that they cannot be patient and cannot make the simple effort to conform to a simple rule, are indicating that they feel they are above the social convention of obligation - and as I said, obligation is a mutual concept.

Patience is one thing, blind patience is another. In a way usage of the mod shows gratitude. Sticking with 1.8.1 solely for this one mod, despite desire to move to 1.0.0, more-so perhaps. All I was asking for was a little more... ?transparency? bleh- that doesn't feel right but it'll work. Moving on for now...

Quote from HeadHunter67

Alblaka has shown himself to be pretty easy-going about a great many things, and when people don't agree with him he has shown that his opinion can be changed by rational discussion.

Which is kinda what I was originally hoping for here, and he has proven himself to be by keeping it unlocked this long as it seems to have spiraled out a bit at times...

Quote from HeadHunter67

One need only look at the Minecraft mod forum to see how anything useful is lost in the noise of "OMG when is this for 1.0?" posts. Personally, if I were in his shoes, ... ...but what would be really nice is if people made a little effort instead of taking others for granted.

Or you can stop feeling obligated to reply to EVERY SINGLE 'OMG when is this 1.0.0?' spam posted... *You* don't HAVE to reply. Or if you start feeling like your head will explode if you don't, you could reply with a relevant quote or link. ...Not replying would probably be the far easier solution though. You also seem to take for granted that the average MCF poster's age is probably ~12 or so- posters that haven't really learned to 'read the OP, and the last 2 pages if needed' yet. Like I said though... you don't have to reply, you CAN leave them to figure it out on their own though... They probably have by the time you respond anyway.

Anyway... moving on... Now with the benefit of hindsight... What if... Waaaaayyyy back when.... two whole MONTHS ago, when MC 1.0.0 was released... Alblaka had made a sticky announcement thread stating something to the effect of '...Yeah... We know 1.0.0 is out- However, we will first be looking to finish our current 'bug release fix' for 1.8.1. Soon after that I(we) will have personal obligations that I(we) must attend that will keep me(us) well occupied for some time. For this reason please do not expect a 1.0.0 IC² until 2012.'

It's blunt and to the point. Yes, I know people will protest it, but THEY can get over it. ...same way we were told to get over it that eventually lead to me finally registering and creating this thread. People that feel the need to respond to every 'when is this 1.0.0' post could even link directly to the sticky announcement in their response if they felt the desire... ...mods could move the 'wen ths iz 1.0, plz' threads as responses to the announcement as a sort of 'trophy wall'.

I dunno... As it stands, I've quit caring totally. Have fun with 1.0.0, I think I'm gonna keep sitting at 1.8.1 with my uncraftable telepipes for awhile.

Stay4

Thank you. Your post seems to sum up the essence in a much less harsh way than my own.

Quote from HeadHunter67

<cut1>As I said, there can be no "excuses" because you are not owed anything.</cut>

<cut2>What's YOUR excuse for not reading THIS forum and seeing what has been stated in many threads here?</cut>

<cut3>you needn't check them all, any one of them would have given you the information you need.</cut>

<cut4>Were you expecting an email or phone call from the IC team?</cut>

<cut5>Direwolf20 has done more for the IC community (as well as BC and RP) than just about anyone else</cut>

<cut6>You act like your decision to hold off on the other mods cost lives or something. IT'S A GAME. What is your REAL issue here?</cut>

<cut7>Because he didn't look.</cut>

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<1> - ...excuse is a bit off I suppose. More of a personal aspect, maybe. Kinda like there's no excuse not to hold a door for someone... even a total stranger.

<2> - I'll admit it... I don't read every reply to every thread, tend to browse more than I search... But when I browse it's usually by avatar- maybe whoever's been talking about update speculation hasn't made it onto my 'avatar-radar' yet... Still leaves plenty of room for a FAQ somewhere.

<3> - Apparently not 100% accurate. See stay4's above post.

<4> - See... this is similar to what I interpreted as antagonizing and inflaming earlier. Up above you accused me of seeming "...pretty reasonable..." yet here you accuse me of expecting something that would be pretty damn unreasonable ...email would be doable though, just set up a mailing list...

<5> - You're totally right... I'm new... got confused for a second while I was writing and didn't catch the mistake. Actually saw these replies when I realized my mistake and returned to fix... Sorry DireWolf, got you confused with Headhunter for a second.

<6> - Sorry if my posts had a sense of urgency that I didn't at all intend... Rest assured though, I'm completely aware that the Sun will still rise tomorrow even without a 1.0.0 IC2. No doubts about it at all... It's the tides I'm worried about... pretty sure there'll be massive flooding if it's not out by next Thursday though...

<7> I looked. Sometimes I lose my glasses and find them on my face later though, if that tells you anything. ...But I've been around enough to know that 'update request = ban... I realize I'm ahead of the game over most users on that, but even that would be a great place to have a link to a 'Loose Projected Update Timeline' thread.

Why do you have to make it like that Headhunter? I'm trying to discuss and illustrate my opinion on the scenario and you seem to be taking an antagonistic, inflammatory approach. You are making excuses without taking previous points into consideration. For example- talking about MCForum user behavior has already been nullified due to my comment about those threads should be considered advertisement only and support should come from the individual mod sites. You can say that someone has stated something as many times as you would like to say they have stated it, but my point about not having to go on a scavenger hunt to find it STILL nullifies that excuse. Not to mention that it does no good for that info to be the 17th reply to a thread about something else entirely.

Despite your accusation to the contrary I totally understand that project developers do not owe me a damn thing. There is no guarantee of further development from any mod developer (or even Mojang for that matter). But beyond that the only thing I have left to say is that what you view as entitlement, I view as patronage... Did I mention that I'm a Developer for a 1600 member gaming community that is looking to expand? Or that we're a non-profit that operates at a surplus? Or that legally we have to liquidate all surplus funds? ...I refuse to work with bad attitudes or for a bad attitude to benefit from my community.

Point is that I know what I'm talking about and I know where I'm coming from- You, Headhunter, obviously do not. I stand by my point that it shouldn't be a scavenger hunt to find information. If Alblaka is too busy to keep things updated then it should fall to his forum staff to get some 'Official Info' threads started in some conspicuous places. ...Maybe a new 'FAQ's' sub-forum above 'General Discussion' off the forum root. People shouldn't have to read 80 forum threads AND the 10 pages of replies AND a wiki AND a dev blog to get a clue and users shouldn't be banned for asking unless there is a clear, impossible-to-miss and up-to-date info source. (Notice I said 'source' not 'sources').

PS, why are you quoting me on 'fault' when I never used the word? I CHOSE to wait, I understand that... it was my CHOICE. My issue is that I might not have made that choice had I been given a clearer picture of the landscape. Instead someone hid part of the picture under the couch, another part was behind the TV... found a small bit of it in my dirty clothes hamper... I think my dog got the rest of it though. Found it... the rest of the picture was in the refrigerator behind the milk.

I get all that... I do... I understand that there are people that will scroll past a page of large blinking letters to post a new thread that was answered by said blinking letters. It sucks, but welcome to the internet.

Timelines- that's why you set generous timelines. No one will complain if something is released a week early, or if the release is a bit more polished because you had a chance to look over it a couple more times.

MCforums is trivial... people should (and I wish they would) consider things there to be no more than advertisements- for any real support or 'advanced info' should come from the mod author's personal site... be it forums, wiki, blog... site proper... Whatever the method(s), the 'preferred source' should be easy to find and well laid out... If you want to avoid 1,000 'when's 1.0 out' threads then you can't expect people to go on a scavenger hunt for some idea. Blog's are great... but not for this purpose so much, they rely too heavily on a timeline structure. Sorry, I just feel that there is no excuse for the chosen attitude when no effort is made to alleviate the root cause.

Personal Tale- I'm just getting started with Minecraft, currently only using BuildCraft, IC2 and IC2<>BC power converters, I've been waiting since the 1.9PR's to add other mods (Forestry for BC, RP perhaps, etc.). Now... had it been a bit more clear what the IC2 development schedule would have been I DEFINITELY would not have waited. But given what it takes to mod and configure and mod the server and client it seemed to make more sense to wait... had I known my choice of mods were going to hold me at 1.8.1 this long then I could have taken better advantage of updates to BC and F-BC. Had I known there was to be an additional 1.8.1 IC2 release after the 1.0 MC release I would have had every reason to go ahead and add the mods I've been waiting on and to keep up with updates to my current mods...

It's not about impatience... it's about being able to plan properly with the information from multiple sources (and multiple sources for the multiple sources).

Let me start by saying that this is not meant to inflame in any way, just my perspective on the issue...

Blunty- Alblaka's 'update request = ban' mentality is crap. I get that the forum software you're using doesn't allow for mute's and such (use different forum software perhaps?), and that constant requests from people get annoying, and that you don't OWE anyone, anything. I totally get all that.

What I don't get is why you have to posture yourself the way you do about it? Why can't you make an easy to find post, link it prominently (above "IndustrialCraft² recent version:: v1.337! (For Minecraft 1.8.1 Beta)" in the announcement box up above, maybe?) Having some idea of what is going on make the waiting a bit easier, and I do not get at all why you have to be 'ask = ban'. Look at the way SpaceToad handled it... he made a post saying 'Yes, I'm aware... on vacation, it'll probably be a couple weeks.' Simple.

You take the 'you'll get it when(if) we feel like giving it, you'll be happy to get it when you do... and if you don't like it then piss-off.' Why can't you just say what you're planning so that people can make their own choices on when/if to upgrade...

Instead of banning people on your own forums and having the IC2 thread on MCforums locked and freaking out on your users you could have just made a post that said 'Look, we're releasing a 1.8.1 bug-fix release 2 weeks after MC1.0. After that we will start working on making a MC1.0 compatible IC2- expect not to have a 1.0.0 IC2 for at least 4-6 weeks." Makes that 4-6 weeks suck significantly less when you know it's going to be 4-6 weeks.

I'm not saying a 'Here's what we have planned' post would solve everything, god knows that people can't search before they post... but if you had handled this differently you'd be a lot closer to being in the right and my argument wouldn't have a leg to stand on.