Posts by Saul_Goode

At the beginning of my current world I built a portal in the basement of my base... went through , collected what I needed and went to head home.

...but when I came out of the portal I wasn't in my basement anymore. Apparently the first portal was in a location that it had to move the corresponding portal a good distance away to be able to build a matching Nether-side portal, then when I came back through it had to make a third portal (2nd in the normal).

At the time I had no idea where I was, not having explored there before, and had no idea where home was. It didn't help that it was night and I figured the dark would make it easier to see distant torches. So I set off, but to make a long story short- I now know where there is a skele spawner right at surface level... with a hole in the ground right above it...

... which reminds me that I need to build a new portal that isn't right above bedrock level...

Quote from WolfBrother

That's not protected under "Fair Use". I don't recall seeing "showing off work you're proud of" as an addendum to "teaching. learning and research". Keep reaching.

In copyright there is a dividing line at 'Commercial' and 'Non-Profit' that weighs heavily, often times 'non-profit' is considered synonymous with 'educational' and receives many of the same protections. If not for Fair-Use it would be a violation as soon as he loaded RP2 and clicked 'decompile'. The ACT would be illegal, not what comes after.

It is covered because it's HIS creation, fair-use defines WHAT CAPACITY he is allowed to use Eloraam's work to create his own.

Point is- once he has created HIS work it's his to do with as he pleases.

He didn't steal her work, he looked at her code to essentially see what she named the Blu variable because that is required when making a converter.

Quote from Bluehorazon

If he wanted to learn, why making it public?

You've never done something, been proud of yourself and wanted to show it off?

Quote from Bluehorazon

Ehm Eloraam isn't the only one taking this stance. And a modding community isn't professional by any means. And since the minecraft-modding community is by no means a standardized community (well it is not even a real community, since parts of it are quite isolated from each other), this just doesn't apply.

You're misinterpreting the term 'professional' - the non-profit and unique nature of Minecraft would redefine the usage of 'professional'. It applies when taken in context.

Quote from Bluehorazon

But the point I still miss is why is it bad.... ....and she approved even addons, even those that conflict with her ideas (computercraft).

THINK ABOUT IT. Add it all up and put it all together... if SpaceToad took Eloraams approach there might never have been a RedPower.... ComputerCraft is a bad example as it's more like NEI with a RP2 subset. ie: ComputerCraft is a mod unto itself. ComputerCraft isn't really a RP2 'addon' now is it?

Quote from Bluehorazon

1. RP is a rather bugfree mod whenever released. I once said that this is mainly based on experience exspecially in trouble-shooting, if she detects a bug it is normally fixed in the next release. Normally she only allows addons if they are well made and I guess this is to keep the quality on the level she maintains. Most likely this is the reason why she only permits uses of her work to other modders who have something to proof that they know what they are doing.

blah blah... Yes, Eloraam has a great mod... is a great coder... Still doesn't change the fact that this mod wouldn't have done ANYTHING good or bad for the people that chose not to install it.

Quote from Bluehorazon

2. Just read the suggestion about the advanced machines. People are really suggesting that alblaka should remove the Induktion-Furnace because he does not include the other advanced machines. She avoids this problem by only allowing other modders to make adjustments to work with Redpower. So if Azanor as an example maintains his conversion-part for thaumcraft than this conversion is obsolete if he stops developing his mods. A seperat addons development could stop development even if people still want to use it, which would of course result in requests directed at her (which she then needs to ignore).

Alblaka is free to maintain HIS mod the way he see's fit, same as Eloraam could with HERS.
Did IC2<>BC conversion STOP when PowerCrystals stopped updating their converter? I seriously doubt it's as much WHO does the mod... I think it's more about WHAT and how it competes.
LOL.... and it takes OH SO MUCH effort to ignore a MCF post... two mouse wheel flicks and you're past it.

Quote from Bluehorazon

3. It is quite possible to bend a mod a lot using addons. I can understand some dislike in regards to this. Using IC2 as an example. There are a lot of mods I dislike since their only purpose is making things a lot easier.

Right. And what do you do? ...YOU choose NOT to install them. Same as anyone else that doesn't want immibis' mod to affect their game.

Quote from Bluehorazon

4. Although it is not the majority Addons will cause more support-request. As long as people are unable to assign some blockIDs this could be ignored, since most likely they won't surpass them.

What? Are you saying that Eloraam would have more support requests in her MCF thread?

Have we not discussed that? Do I really need to go over that again?

Quote from Bluehorazon

So her stance seems reasonable and I still the don't see benefits for her from changing it.

only because you don't want to...

Quote from quantumleaf7895

I'm aware that a change would be trivial, but the fact that such a change would have to be made intrigues me. Like I said, IC2 is one of the few mods that would be affected by this change beyond a simple "hey, I have an extra 128 blocks to build with now."

True... but it's just a minor world tweak. Like you said, wind gen's are twice as powerful now, which is twice as powerful as the IC2 team intends them to be. So they get nerfed or the part of the code that increases efficiency for each block above sea-level or whatever is reduced to ~1/3? of it's previous value.

But yes, I understand being intrigued by the changes... I am too by the changes to chunk loading and the map format converter. I myself wonder if the converter only does 1.1>1.2 or if it will do 1.0.1>1.2 as well.

Quote from quantumleaf7895

I'm intrigued by the impact this will have on IC2 -- wind generators now can be nearly twice as powerful, and the 80 block limit of the electric jetpack now becomes a serious liability for large projects. Maybe the conventional one will be more useful?

Or Alblaka and team modify the code for the electric to allow it to go up to 160... or it opens the door for a new super-jet pack... how about a jet pack with a 'power' setting? 1- 80 2- 160 3- 256 each one sucking more power?

... or just modify the code that sets the ceiling at 80... whichever...

You missed the point. The thread was dead for a month before you bumped it to the TOP of the page so that you could add NO new information.

Necroposting... Google it.

And as the last quote shows- *if* this ever was heard in a court "... in addition to looking at context, amount and value of the use, also look to the standards and practices of the professional communities where the case comes from..."

Context- It's non-profit. All of it. Mojang are the only ones making money. That weighs heavily when settlement would be in the form of monetary damages. / It's a conversion mod that competes with her PLANS of the way she wants to do it- plans aren't protectable.
Amount- Converter only touches RP2, see 'scenes a faire' quote- certain usages are to be expected and are therefore not covered.
Standards and Practices - professional does not mean 'programmers' here, it means that mods in general and other conversion mods would set the standard. ie: the Minecraft Modding Community.

Quote from FenixR

Once again, her mod, her plan,her domain, her property, her control.

Quote from FenixR

and of course doesnt depend of the original code for something

Quote from FenixR

he can very well distribute it privately

And her plan is not protectable.
Variable declarations ARE NOT protectable.
Wrong. Distribution is distribution. peer2peer sharing of music is illegal no matter the venue.

This is about how far her domain extends, and how in this case she is exerting her control where she should not have domain and therefore should have no control.

'plug-ins' are not her code and therefore not her domain. Mojang does not insist on modders having their approval, that is the standard as set forth by fair-use, and you can't really argue it because Mojang (and SpaceToad and Alblaka for conversions) have ALREADY set the standard.

The standard was being set when she was still submodding for BC.

And as you conceded- Fair Use does allow decompilation, that part of her license is already invalidated in places that EXPRESSLY allow it.

To fix the BoingBoing description... "We are all living in a simulation and Notch Jeb is God."

Quote from Bluehorazon

If you don't want to talk about licences... than don't do it. But none of your fair-use cases are useable in this case. No idea why you underlined teaching or research etc. since this is most likely not the case.

https://twitter.com/#!/jeb_/status/169168956714782722

So I don't know how anyone can possibly blame her for anything. The only reason, and she already said so later is that she wants control over what addons exists for RP. That's the purpose of asking first, since she might say yes or no. So you save a lot of work if you ask first.

... ...They don't apply? ... ...Um... ok... how?. Anyway- I didn't bring licenses into this, like I said- intent was to end the license aspect. I've stated repeatedly that this is not about her license, neither for me nor for her. It's about her plans, which are not covered by copyright. 'Copyright is a matter of law, which protects EXACT expression, not ideas.'

ALL of my fair-use examples are relevant (seriously, if they aren't then itemize so I can address.)- License agreements CANNOT trump LAW, license agreements CANNOT deprive users of rights granted by law. It's part of the reason that Mojang obfuscates, Java is impossible to protect from decompilation, at least compared to other languages.

The reason that I underlined 'teaching', 'research' and 'scholarship', is to emphasize that the LAW specifically allows exemptions for uses of an educational nature, he wanted to learn to mod. It is absolutely the case as it's what immibis stated as his reason in the post that he released his converter in.

And I'm saying that LEGALLY Eloraam has no grounds to deny people from doing anything except taking her exact work and passing it off as their own. If Eloraam tried to take legal action against someone she would find herself in the uncomfortable position of being a DEFENDANT in an Anti-Trust and/or anti-SLAPP lawsuit.

HER LICENSE IS IN VIOLATION OF THE FAIR-USE DOCTRINE, a sub-section of the US Copyright Law.

Every single example of 'Fair-Use' and how it applies here is relative, it is the reader's unwillingness to comprehend that has kept this thread spinning it's wheels.

Look at the last wikipedia quote and tell me how it is that it does not apply to the conversation at hand.

She want's control that she is not legally allowed to have, at least not in the United States. (See the last wiki quote from previous post).

...and Eloraam helping Jeb does not automatically canonize her into sainthood. Questions of motivation apply. Why is as important as What.

From BoingBoing... thought I'd share. Click for commentary.

...I wonder who you'd have to pay to build a house up there...

I didn't want this to be about licenses and copyrights because that is so dependent on jurisdiction and no 2 courts in the same jurisdiction can seem to agree half the time. Not to mention that you'd be hard pressed to even find a court to hear this case... But... based on US copyright which is often the most restrictive and what a lot of other countries are pressured into looking at for their own laws.

Without actually comparing Eloraams and Immibis code I can't speak as to exactly how protected he would be. But I'm posting it now because I just want to end the license and copyright aspects of this thread and it all justifies the 'Fair Use' concept that no one seems to be willing to comprehend.

First quote speaks to the fact that Eloraams' PLANS are not 'copyright-able'...(and if a RP2-clone would be allowed as bluehorazon doubts)

@quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;common misunderstandings;Acknowledgment of the source makes a use fair.'(off-topic quote) - Copyright is a matter of law, and protects exact expression, not ideas.

The rest is about Fair Use.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use...

@quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use' - Fair use is a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work. In United States copyright law, fair use is a doctrine that permits limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders.

@quote- 'US Copyright Law;17 U.S.C. § 107' - Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

@quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use' - Fair use tempers copyright's exclusive rights to serve the purpose of copyright law, which the US Constitution defines as the promotion of "the Progress of Science and useful Arts" (Art. I, § 8, cl. 8). This principle... ...sheds light on various other limitations on copyright's exclusive rights, particularly the scenes à faire doctrine

@quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;scènes à faire' - As another example, in programming, it is often customary to list variables at the beginning of the source code of a program. In some programming languages, it is required to also declare the type of variable at the same time. Depending on the function of a program, certain types of variables are to be expected. If a program deals with files, variable types that deal with files are often listed and declared. As a result, variable declarations are generally not considered protected elements of a program.

@quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;common misunderstandings' - "It's copyrighted, so it can't be fair use." On the contrary, fair use applies only to copyrighted works, describing conditions under which copyrighted material may be used without permission. If a work is not copyrighted, fair use does not come into play, since public-domain works can be used for any purpose without violating copyright law.

@quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;fair use and professional communities' - Courts, when deciding fair use cases, in addition to looking at context, amount and value of the use, also look to the standards and practices of the professional communities where the case comes from.

Quote from Bluehorazon

Depends on how they use microblocks. If they code their own system to behave much like eloraams. Fine. If they just use her functions and essentially her mod to make their microblocks it's a bit different. Oh and totally recoding RP2 with everything in it is something in the grey. It's like reproducing a Song with different instruments and if you try this one you would surely run into trouble.

Isn't that exactly what I just said? ...what I've been saying all along? Someone is free to look at her code and write their own based off what they LEARN? So long as they WRITE it and don't COPY it. But this isn't about her code it's about her PLANS.

Recoding a RP2-clone would NOT be in the grey at all. So long as the code and art are original it would be an Original Creation. Like I said, TMI vs NEI... Identical Look, feel and function (aside from NEI being better and doing more.).

It's more like writing symphonies where the music is code, notes would be variables and instructions. You can rearrange the notes to make many different orchestrations each one similar yet unmistakably individual. So long as you don't follow the exact melody then it's your song.

Quote from Bluehorazon

No Minecraft-Players could just not buy the game. Minecraft is open for modding for a reason, they make money with it. Why should eloraam do it? She has no need for more users, so she is free to do what she wants. Actually you should know that Notch hates modding, he only allows it because Jeb convinced him, I guess mainly by the argument of money. If you run a company you are not free to do what you want, because you are restricted by economical aspects. I see no reason why eloraam should be compared to Mohjang in any means since it is a totally different situation if you make money with something or not.

You think Mojang would be giving out refunds to the people that already paid? Aside from the part of the purchase agreement that states 'no guarantees about future updates'...

It invalidates your 'just not buy the game'. The game was sold as being a modable, sandbox type environment. Notchs attitude towards modding doesn't really apply anymore- at least not since he left Minecraft to Jeb so that he could turn his attention to other interests.

You might guess money was what won him over, but I'm not so sure. My vote would have to go to community loyalty... or a community in general. If nothing else you need mods so that (S)MP servers can be somewhat defined by the mod collection they run. Just as important is the ability to appeal to a wider range of players- Vanilla MC is tedious, I would have stopped playing long ago had I not discovered BC with it's quarry. I think loyalty and longevity probably trump the money aspect.

The only reason there is a Mojang is because Notch couldn't do everything on his own. He needed tech support, an accountant, a business manager... when you employ people you have to form a company to do it with. Before there was a Mojang Notch had hinted at the possibility of releasing the whole thing to the public domain when he was finished\his interest wore off.

Quote from Bluehorazon

If you don't want your game her way may I suggest not using her mod? What do you expect? That she creates a mod that is only for your personal needs?

C'mon now. It's comments like that that are just outright foolish and mocking. This isn't about what Eloraam codes, ELORAAM IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FREE TO MOD REDPOWER2 IN WHATEVER WAY SHE DESIRES, that was never the question. It's about what she (dis)allows and WHY. It's about the fact that I would have found a converter mod useful for at least until she implemented hers and I started a new world (whichever came last). More or less the same reason that she used for allowing the Thaum converter.

Quote from FenixR

I though we already told you that immibis mod its useless without eloraam mod.

Quote from FenixR

Save this in you harddrive saul

Goes for you too Fenix... I know that Immibis' mod is useless without Eloraams' mod. I was the one that pointed out that hers is useless without Mojangs GAME. It's part of what I think defines the 'Fair Use'. If you still doubt Fair Use, then please see the followup post to this one.

Just drop the statements of mockery. It falls into what some people consider 'flaming' or 'being a troll'. I have no problems remembering what has been said in this thread- I'm the one that has to quote PARAGRAPHS of what he has previously said because other people bring up points that have been dead in the ditch so long that the scavengers have ravaged the carcasses and nothing but bones are left. Save that to your harddrive.

Quote from Bluehorazon

And actually it is easier to use the BT-System than converting the EU to BT. Really there is not much that needs energy in her mod (Retrievers and Sorters don't use much energy. Since you can create a thermopile everywhere you would normally build a converter there is just no need for it. With IC2 installed even the nether is no problem since you can easily create Ice.

That is you and how you play... the amount of energy is not the question. It's getting access in the area's in a consolidated system. I like the way that I've developed my production chain, the balance I've found between BC and IC2 for collection>sorting>processing>storing. I think it would be great if I could integrate a couple of RP sorters and retrievers into that. But not at the cost of a massive remodel in a world that I will be deleting when I update (whenever that ends up being.)

Part of my balance is that I don't like to waste energy... It's the reason I have an excessive amount of IC2 storage and a lever to dump it all straight into a mass fab for when I want to run a nuke cycle a bit early or I shut down my BC quarries and my solars are producing excess energy for the Adv. IC2 machines that are sitting idle. I'm sure I could work ample Blu generation into the area's, but I don't like building systems that allow energy to be wasted... And I like Solar energy. At this point the Bluetric system has no options for excess energy. I don't want to give up on RP2- it has promise... I want to see where ELORAAM takes it. But in the short term I think this converter mod would have helped.

Considering I'm STILL playing 1.0 dropping this mod in and playing from there beats reworking the areas that I'd have to add Blu Generation into.

Quote from FenixR

Of course has bluehorazon already say, they wont do something like that since mods are the number 1 attractive of the game and the reason almost 22million of people around the world bought the game.

In normal situations, if you dont like the way a game is, you absolutely complain about it in a forum that has nothing to do with the game (Although related in a obscure way) until the creators do something about it............... oh wait? No you dont! you simply dont buy the game and look for something else you would want to play.

Right, but IF they did people would protest right? Considering that modding is such a large part of Minecraft and all... So the 'what-if' is relative, though in a minor way.

And this topic being here is relative to IC2 considering that the conversion mod was as much a part of IC2 as it was a part of RP2. Immibis' mod was a sub-mod of IC2 as well, I just figured Alblaka would be more tolerant than Eloraam. As shown by FenixR's statement about her banning all conversation related.

That and on the whole I don't like MCF and view it as advertising for mods more than anything.

Quote from Bluehorazon

Basically eloraam dislikes people telling her what she has to do with her mod. So that's the main reason, the second one might be that the OP would most likely find even less people in the RP-thread agreeing to his position than he finds here.

Again, Not telling her what to do with her mod.

I don't like MCF on the whole and it's Eloraams' thread, people would be freer to agree with my dissension here. Why am I to be faulted for this?

...Sorry for the upcoming double-post...

Quote from Bluehorazon

So everyone who uses her systems, like blutricity or microblocks, uses her mod. Which she might allow in certain situations and forbids in other situations, which situations that are is up to her to decide.

Wrong.

Eloraam gets absolutely no say over the usage of microblocks. Microblocks are a method and anybody is free to look at her code to see how she does it then implement it in their own mod. Eloraam didn't 'invent' microblocks and they aren't specifically dependent on any code of hers.

The only thing Eloraam has control over is her CODE. Her specific code. If someone wanted they could write their own direct clone of RP2, and so long as they do not literally 'copy-paste' her code they would be free to release it as a direct competitor to RP2. Think of the TMI vs. NEI problems. Look, purpose and function are near identical, but since ChickenBones wrote it, it's his to release.

Quote from Bluehorazon

(actually Redpower was a Submod for BC earlier

Submod of BC, seriously? Can I get you to cite a reference on that? The fact that people defend her gets more and more amazing each time I learn something like that... Like when I learned of Minia... I've gotten a good 20 minutes of laughter about that little gem over the last couple of weeks.

Quote from &quot;FenixR&quot;

I though we already told you that immibis mod its useless without eloraam mod.

Right. And how would you feel if Mojang started shutting down certain mods for BS reasons and basically just said 'We don't want you to play the game THAT way. It uses our code so that's that."

Would every Minecraft player just say 'OK.' and go back to Vanilla?

Quote from &quot;MagusUnion&quot;

On-topic: I'm still betting on that Volt*Amp=Watt system. I'm not faulting her for doing the conversion if this is her specific aim.

Still don't see why our game has to be HER way... I mean, why do I HAVE to add a third energy net just to be able to use a couple of Sorting Machines? Why not allow an addon converter so I can just leech a bit of power from my already in place IC2 grid? At least until her suitably complex system is sorted and implemented?

Honestly I'd be skeptical of someone wanting to continue updating and supporting a conversion mod by the time Eloraam gets hers finished and I think it's quite possible they'd be willing to voluntarily discontinue it once Eloraam released hers.

I just think that in the short term allowing the converter would have 'helped her users' just the same as when she justified allowing the ThaumCraft mod.

Quote from FenixR

For some bizarre reason, saul thinks that elo its not allowed to have her own plans and/or have to let the community make the stuff she eventually its going to do.
Its not bad, like you have said its calling having control of your own project. If you think you are not allowed control of your own project then something its wrong with you.

This isn't about HER project, it's about how she exerts her will on other peoples projects. I have no problem with Eloraam having her own plans, or implementing her own plans. It's about the only valid reason being HER WAY is the ONLY WAY.

I have no problems with her retaining control of her mod, it the part where she exerts control over someone else's mod when she shouldn't have that power. So I guess that means that nothing is wrong with me? She can control her mod all she likes, Immibis' converter was NOT her mod.

Incredible evil? Perhaps not. This thread has been spun so far out of context that it bears very little resemblance to what it was intended to be.

I don't HATE Eloraam. (Seems like I've heard someone say that before...) And I never did...

What started this for me was the key quote 'I have my own plans in mind for that'. As I've stated before, if she had simply said 'It violates my license.', I would have never questioned her decision. I would have barely given it a half-thought much less a second-thought.

I know it doesn't make sense to everyone, but I question the 'why' just as much as the 'what' and am generally more likely to support a person that does the wrong thing for the right reasons than the person that does the right thing for the wrong reasons. In this situation, I see Immibis doing the wrong thing (releasing a mod that violated the RP2 license), for the right reasons (made it to learn, released it a) as a matter of pride b) to help people that might find a Blu<>EU feature handy.)

Quote from Bluehorazon

She recently allowed Azanor to create a Blutricity-Generator for Thaumcraft.

Yes, the subject of the Thaum<>RP2 converter has been discussed and proves some of my own points...

From a few pages ago...
quote@='FenixR' quote@="Eloraam": If Azanor came to me and asked, I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module, and I see that it would help users of my mod."

I'll just quote myself for the rest and save a bit of typing...

Quote from Saul_Goode

quote;@eloraam - "In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."

Establishes that it's not a question of permissions, it's a question of Eloraam making a proprietary system.

quote;@eloraam - "I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module, I am currently planning IC and BC, though. That's why I'm not allowing those modules at all."

PROVES it's more a question of making a proprietary system for her. She is clearing the field of competition in this area.... 'I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity' and 'I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module' are at direct odds with each other.

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Quote from Saul_Goode

(3) - Precisely why I view this as being about competition. She has her own plans for IC<>RP and BC<>RP, so anything else would be competing against HER method of converting. She has no plans for Thaum<>RP2 so there's no competition for her there. If, as she herself has stated, 'In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity', "any" is all-inclusive, allowing some while disallowing others is not 'ANY' it is 'SOME'. She is only allowing converters that she has no plans for. NO PLANS FOR. If she's not intending to do it then she'll allow it because, again, it's not competition for her. Allowing *certain* mods she doesn't intend to do herself goes directly against her original statement of specifically disallowing ANY conversion mods. She is only disallowing the things SHE PLANS to do, not the things she doesn't.

Conversion mods aren't the problem, competition for her intended way of converting are.

She says it in plain English when she says "I am currently planning IC and BC, though. That's why I'm not allowing those modules at all."

It's not about stealing her work. It's not about waiting for a proper RP2 API. ... ... HER PLANS.

Quote from FenixR

Which is not the case here, if you read the post above yours, that quoted piece was extracted straight from the mojang term of use.

I understand that, which is the reason that I prefaced my statement with 'typically'.

I was trying to show how out of the ordinary Eloraams' terms are. A software developer can write whatever they want into their EULA, including a claim on your first-born child, if they so desire. The question is how people react when they take action on their terms.

Mojangs' ToS are extremely fair... don't STEAL from us, do what you like to modify to your liking. Don't distribute OUR work, distribute yours as you see fit.

Quote from &quot;Mojang ToS&quot;

We're trying to be open and honest, and we hope people treat us the same way back.

Is an extracted quotation of my own... As I've said in the past about precedents- Mojang set one here. I don't feel that Eloraam has been very open, and I doubt the honesty of anyone that says this is about license terms.

Quote from MagusUnion

Considering that the main pro/antagonists in this thread have been banned due to other, semi-correlated

huh? I missed it... who got banned and why?

Quote from MagusUnion

tl;dr: There is reason to be concerned about her actions, as they devalue the opinion of Forge with her decisions and actions over Redpower. But at the same time, I doubt she will do something so rash with RP that people drop that mod (and other mods that connect to it) due to said actions. Yes, it does make a few uneasy, but I say let's give her more time. She wants to do the energy crossover herself (I can almost bet that it's going to be based around a Volt*Amp = Watt(EU) system of energy transfer), and wants the proper 'tools' in place for the player to do so. Let's leave her be, because I do believe she'll deliver on what most of her playerbase wants...

Pretty good post.

Only thing I have to say really is that there is nothing that would have prevented Eloraam from going forward with her own method. Part of my original platform was that this was more about limiting of choice than threat to work. This mod would have had zero effect on the people that chose not to use it, and that includes Eloraam herself, all the more reason to develop the conversion her way if she's not using an addon converter...

Quote from &quot;FenixR&quot;

(1) - ...did not know that saul and headhunter was banned...
(2) - And just because the "Core Software" agree to modification, it doesnt mean that 3rd party mods should also allow modification because of... the terms and rules of the first core software

(1) - I was banned? Humpf, news to me too...

(2) - But typically (with the majority of Community Copyrights, at least) it's actually written into the license that derivative works have to be released under the same license version as the 'core' software. It's the mindset of 'We are allowing you to build off of our work, allow others to do the same to yours'. Think 'Do unto others.'

Quote from &quot;BlueHorazon&quot;

She playes BC and IC2 herself and is again a proof of modders modding for themself.

Again, she doesn't install an addon converter then it won't affect HER gameplay. Her squashing Immibis' mod only affects OUR gameplay.

It seems to me that this would be like Microsoft saying 'No browser except Internet Explorer, because we want you to surf the internet the way that we think is best.'

Quote from HeadHunter67

That Mojang does not restrict how developers control their product. Just because Mojang does it that way, others are in no way obligated to do the same. Clear enough?

Got it... Been over that... You said you were pointing something out, laid out supporting facts and I guess I missed the part where you actually said what it was that you were trying to point out. ...Oh, wait... you never actually said. You went from 'I'm going to point something out' to 'Mojang are the ones actually making income', to 'Mojang allows distribution', absolutely no mention whatsoever that you were speaking of obligation with that. So yeah, coulda been clearer.

Quote from HeadHunter67

No, it's relevant to YOU Headhunter. That's what I keep talking about when I say 'context' and your refusal to acknowledge that.

I didn't make this thread to talk about Eloraams license.

Go back and reread my Original Post, not a word about Eloraams' license. The word 'license' does not even enter this thread until the 8th post and it was you that first used it.

This is what I talk about when I talk about twisting it into what you want it to be about. Eloraam didn't make it about her license (until after the fact, perhaps), YOU did HeadHunter.

My issue all along was about Eloraam pulling the sub-mod, BECAUSE IT INTERFERES WITH HER OWN PLANS.

Quote from HeadHunter67

You'll just have to prove to me that past disagreements have nothing to do with this then. because I'm... skeptical.

Again, it's not about 'entitlement' to me. But I will cop to feelings of obligation... not to me, butto the community, and that obligation exists so long as the project is publicly active. If a developer does not like that obligation then they are free to develop for their own personal use. There is more obligation with a paid product, less for a free one- But there still are obligations.

It's about the 'Publicly-Available' aspect of it.

Quote from HeadHunter67

... you are, whether you realize it or not, stating that you feel that you are entitled to something. If you do not understand the irrevocable relationship between the "obligation" of one party and the "entitlement" of another, then you do not even understand the words you use. One cannot have an "obligation" without owing something to another.

So, then, what do you feel developers owe you,, and why?

*I'm* not entitled... not directly at least. It's a matter of scope. The only entitlement I feel is as a part of the community, and considering the number of people in the community my 'share' of that entitlement is so miniscule that I don't really view it as worth consideration.

You asked why I feel this way? Because I am a developer myself and I feel a sense of obligation to my users. I feel it's that philosophy that put my server at #1 on the top voting site for 8 of a 12 month period back when it mattered. Top 3 for the other 4 months in that stretch.

Quote from HeadHunter67

I'm still skeptical of the "support" you claim to have received - because it's clear that it hasn't manifested itself here. How can I possibly "backpedal" on something that has yet to be revealed?
You made a claim but I've seen no evidence of it. Maybe you got PMs - but not from anyone who's willing to extend that support to you here, in public.

And what would it take? An explicit declaration of 'I am the user that PM'd Saul_Goode. He has my full support and his words are mine by proxy.'?

So... you're not skeptical that I got a PM, but you are skeptical that it's in support of my opinion...? How does that work, I got a random PM and I'm just saying it's supportive in nature? That would be a lie, and as I said before I find the fact you'd suggest me a liar offensive.

Quote from HeadHunter67

We're not interested in "literary devices" here. This is not a poetry slam, this is a debate. Stick to the facts, if you will.

Read the thread title... 'Discususion', had I intended it to be a debate I would have titled it appropriately. A debate is just what it got turned into.

Quote from HeadHunter67

The problem is, you haven't GOT a context to "stick to". You revise your alleged position on the issue as necessary, to suit your latest attempt at a point.

No, if it was all in context I wouldn't have had to start this post out by pointing out the the word 'license' didn't even appear in this thread until you brought it up in point #8. If it was all in context I wouldn't still have a need for similes about murder and child-abuse.

Quote from HeadHunter67

Not at all - the topic is about the validity of Eloraam's actions. In your own words:

Now, are you going to base that "validity" on your malleable opinion, or shall we just settle for the facts? You talk a lot about what's "right", but sadly, "right" is on her side here, not yours.

Yes, Off topic when the thread wasn't intended to be about her license. The underlaying theme of my whole platform is Eloraams attitude before license even comes into it.

Eloraams post that sparked my thread didn't even invoke her license therefore it wasn't about her license for me when I started this. Had she invoked her license at the start of this then I probably wouldn't have given it a second-thought. The 'what I have in mind for that' was the hook that got me pulled in.

Quote from HeadHunter67

I'll point out one thing - even though Mojang permits mods, THEY are the only ones making any measurable income off of Minecraft. The fact that they have explicitly permitted ad-revenue generating links for mod content shows that they permit the distribution of such mods.

If you want to talk about precedent, then let's consider the real world instead of wobbly hypothetical examples. In the real world, one author's license cannot bind permitted derivative works to the same terms unless it is explicitly stated so. Mojang's license clearly states quite the opposite, in fact.
"Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, including selling them for money."

Right, Eloraam could start charging people money for RedPower at any time, just the same that Mojang does with Minecraft. Mojang CANNOT charge people for RedPower, only Eloraam can do that as RedPower is her work.

Mojang does NOT however restrict people from extending their work the way that Eloraam does... kinda one of the points I've been trying to make. What was yours?

Quote from HeadHunter67

You may not think that Eloraam is complying with Mojang's license, but you probably haven't actually taken the time to read its Terms Of Use.

Again, this isn't about license agreements' like you keep going on and on about. This is about what Eloraam considers a threat to RedPower.

So I'll just skip all the parts that drone on about licenses...

Quote from HeadHunter67

OK, so "flaming" is disagreeing with you, and "attacking" is "pointing out the ramifications of exactly what you said"?

No, flaming me is when you make this more about past disagreements than the topic at hand. Flaming me is the use of demotivational posters when you are just as guilty as I.

Attacking me is when you write-off things as 'Libertarian ideals you clearly don't understand'. It's a particular snide and flippant manner to the tone of your posts.

Quote from HeadHunter67

You came right out and stated that you feel developers have an obligation to the community. You've also stated that you are speaking on behalf of the community. Therefore, you must feel that developers have an obligation to you. Ergo, you feel they owe you something. And even if you now claim that you speak only for yourself, then you still obviously expect that developers have an obligation to you.

Not true, *I* am not the community, I am but one small part of the community. Just a tiny ant in the multitude... ...but an ant that carries a tiny little soapbox with him wherever he goes...

Developers, I feel do have an obligation to the community- For at least as long as they decide to keep their project active and public. Any Developer is free to stop at any time, but so long as they stay publicly active then yes, there is a certain obligation there.

Quote from HeadHunter67

You said before that you don't feel like Alblaka (and Eloraam) owe you anything - but here, you have explicitly stated that they do. Maybe you don't see it as backpedalling, because you can't see the meaning of what you say.
You continue to modify your position and the direction of your argument in a vain attempt to keep the high ground you never held in the first place. Now, you're trying to equate control of individual creative rights with murder and child abuse - and you want to tell me that I'm off topic?

Not backpedaling at all and nothing like your skepticism backpedal.

If you read the above statement you'll see that there in no feeling of personal obligation from me. It's all about the obligations that come with being a developer that is currently maintaining a publicly active project. Public and Active.

And it's not about equating it with anything, it's called a simile and it's a literary device @quote:wikipedia 'used to directly compare two different things.' DIFFERENT, not equal.

IF YOU COULD KEEP THINGS IN CONTEXT, you would have seen that the 'murder and child abuse' examples were used in the context of community agreements, and not laws and license agreements like you try to make everything about. As I've said, stop twisting things out of context to suit your ends, I would greatly appreciate it as it would save me A LOT of typing.

And by 'off-topic' I meant that it was getting back into the 'license argument, which this isn't about, so yes, off-topic.

... I'm not even going to bother with the rest, it's all out of context and I'm done trying to explain to someone that refuses to comprehend.

This was never about hating on Eloraam, it was intended to discuss if a RP2<>IC2 power converter would have caused harm, discussion is pointless when there is one person that insists on screaming down every person that tries to talk about anything other than what they want it to be about. It's not about her fucking license, it's about the fact that this didn't start with her license, it all started because she 'has her own plans in mind' for power conversion.

edit: just as my previous thread wasn't about hating on Alblaka, it was about that one policy. JUST that one policy.

When I made the 'being born human' statement it was meant to show that in a way we are all bound by the community around us. It wasn't about murder laws or killing at all.

It was meant to show that from the time that we are born on, we are bound by the community around us. If your town has a 'no loud noises after 10pm' ordinance you are still bound by that even if you don't expressly agree. It's about... precedent, I suppose.

In the context of this community- MayorMojang tabled a 'free to work with my work, just don't rip me off' motion. ChairmanAlblaka - Yay. ChairmanSpaceToad - Yay. ChairwomanEloraam - Nay.

Quote from &quot;BlueHorazon&quot;

One of this laws is the copyright-law which marks decompiling illegal if not for a small amount of purposes.

Yes, there are laws explicitly stating that murder is bad. But those laws are there so they have something to officially charge you with. Everybody knows it's wrong to punch a toddler in the face, yet we still have laws explicitly prohibiting child abuse. Right is right , wrong is wrong- people know murder is bad even without a law that says 'Don't do that.' ...Legality does not imply morality- there are plenty of things that while still being legal, aren't necessarily moral.

Your example is copyright law... Something that is widely disputed based on where the two parties are located (globally). One of the major fights today IS copyright law because countries cannot agree on what 'Fair-Use' actually is. In the context of the conversation, my opposition has a more United States-esque view of copyright law than I do, my definition of 'Fair-Use' is a bit broader. When I stated that 'the irony of this happening a day after the SOPA/PIPA protest's was not lost on me.' in my OP, I wasn't joking. In a microcosm kinda way this rings of it.

Anyway... this is looking too much at the 'legal' which is wasn't my focus.

Quote from &quot;BlueHorazon&quot;

Oh... do I understand this correctly. ...you actually also should agree to give away full control of your work?

No, but you should be willing to respect the way using someone elses work allowed you to get where you are with your work.

Quote from &quot;Kyyshrrk&quot;

I don't know how to exactly tell you, this but you've just managed to fail history and logic forever with this statement. While it's generally been accepted that we shouldn't kill the people that we're living around, "tribes" of people have been pretty much okay with killing as long as it's not likely to affect them.

I didn't fail when you keep it in context. In the community it's generally held that killing your neighbor is a bad thing, but in some places killing someone in a neighboring town is celebrated. But if you start killing neighboring villagers they'll start coming to kill your villagers, eventually the chiefs have to come together and say 'no more killing, you handle your people, I'll handle mine.'

Then if you ride to a neighboring village and kill someone, YOUR village gets pissed because the whole mess is going to start again.

It's a matter of scope and perspective and so long as you keep that in focus, then my logic is pretty clear.

Quote from Alblaka

Nope, can't agree with that.
I'm doing this because i decided to. I'm not doing this because i joined the community (which happened a few weeks before i even thought about creating IC. All started in the runecraft thread :3

Not what I intended it to mean. I didn't mean that like 'You have to be working to make Minecraft a better game.'

Meant it more like... ... ... the 'island with restrictive import\export' aspect....

Quote from &quot;HeadHunter67&quot;

This is exactly what I spoke of when I talked about the attitude of entitlement. When I said "Alblaka doesn't owe you anything" (and now "Eloraam doesn't owe you anything either"), you act like that's not what it's about, but this statement makes it crystal clear.

It's one thing for me to say that the Emperor has no clothes - but now you've said it in your own words. How are you going to backpedal from this one?

Um... it's not entitlement when it's taken in context? Once again, stop attacking me. If you want to discuss, that is fine by me... but stop flaming.

And I asked once, I'll ask again... what have I backpedaled on and is it anything like your backpedaling of your skepticism? State it so I can address it.

Quote from &quot;bluehorazon&quot;

neither the pipes nor the tubes are core but required elements of the mod... ...And of course all 3 mods need a power-system... ...But all 3 are so fundamentally different and also some kind of evolutional that they have there place.

I can understand that all three mods need access to systems of those natures. My issue is why... I dunno, I've always just gotten a feeling of competition from this. One of those times that a better solution could have been found. What if... ...new API for 'tech' mods. Or a sub-api of forge that handles energy and transport?

Actually that's kinda what it comes down to for me... In the context of RP, BC and IC... Why do there have to be 3 energy nets? or 2 item transport systems? ****And why do attempt's to unite them have to be squashed?****

Why does the most challenging part of my game play have to be the part where I try to fit 5 different grids into my walls?