Posts by Saul_Goode

Quote from HeadHunter67

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing the ONE thing that would actually address any of these complaints:

Make a mod that does what you want it to, from scratch, without relying on someone else's code.

It's essentially how RedPower started, and part of the reason people got behind the concept of the Forge API.

There's all this talk of Eloraam allegedly suppressing competition, but there's no actual competition coming out of this discussion - merely people who want to use Eloraam's code to make "their own" add-on.

Why aren't we seeing people doing their own thing, instead?

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I don't even know where you are going with this... A mod to convert from RP2 to IC2 is going to have to rely on BOTH Eloraams' code AND Alblakas' code. AND Mojangs' code... You seem to conveniently forget that RedPower relies on Mojangs' code. ...please don't bring legality and her license back into this point. One focus at a time, please.

No competition from this discussion... sure. OK. But the conversation *IS* about competition. Sorry, but I still feel it's been proven as I've not seen any responses in this thread that have discredited my arguments to that effect. Eloraam has stated herself that she will not allow Blutricity conversion mods, in her own words "...specifically disallowed any conversion mods...", then a later statement from her confirms that she would probably allow a conversion mod that she "...has made no plans for...". If it's not about competition then explain the logic behind that. Her own words prove that her concerns lay with the plans that SHE HAS MADE. She will allow a ThaumCraft conversion that she hasn't planned for, yet she won't allow BC or IC2 that she HAS planned for. If it's not about competition then lay out an argument that can change my mind and prove me wrong. Until you do that it will remain as an non-discredited accusation. Seriously, if anyone can do this then I'd really like to see it. I'm that confident in the case I've laid out.

Own thing instead? Maybe it would be easier for this to happen if they were given a chance to learn and get better? Look at what SirSengir and Krapht have done building off of someone elses' work. Forestry is very nearly a mod in and of itself, if BuildCraft wasn't such a large part of Forestry it WOULD be a mod of it's own. I don't think Sengir would have been capable of the current incarnation of Forestry had he not had a chance to build his sub-mod and learn through making his mod better. Krapht has made an incredibly complex mod that would have detracted from BuildCrafts' development if SpaceToad tried to do it all himself. Not that SpaceToad would have ever gone that direction...

If Eloraam was a little less restrictive, and would allow others' a little more freedom then maybe she could get more of the heavy-lifting done. If, as I stated before, she allowed immibis' mod to continue forward then she could have moved her own converter down in priority a bit leaving room sooner for the stuff that SHE needs to do. Maybe she could finally get around to the changes ChickenBones needs implemented so that he can update his wireless redstone past 1.8.1. Instead she insists on doing everything herself, her own way. Thereby hindering other developers, thereby hindering the community as a whole (at least the part of the community that uses those mods).

Less swearing please - Alb

I understand that, and TOTALLY respect that desire. In my defense it was a direct reaction to FenixR dropping his own F-Bomb. So I used the same word, just excessively. That is all.

---Censored RePost of what was removed---

Quote from FenixR

(1) - What you saying its basically fuck her rights i want to exercise my rights.
(2) - but eloraam as a right to forbid anyone from looking at her code and making/public anything based on it.
(3) - I dunno how much simpler i can put these so you can finally understand.

No... you are taking ME out of context now. If you want to talk about 'in circles', I've already addressed the fact that Eloraam has rights.

(1) - I'm saying her rights do not extend to derivative works. If that derivative work HARMS her work, then things get stickier and I'm less on the side of immibis'.

(2) - So people can't look at her code, figure out how she manages to pack so many things into such a small number of DisplayID's and recreate that inside their own mod? They still aren't taking her code, merely looking at the implementation for reimplementation. Using your reasoning, no one can ever do something that she has claimed to be even PLANNING for.

My issue isn't with her rights, it is how far she thinks her control should extend.

I understand immibis' work touches her work and in some circumstances she should probably have some say over that. But not until it HARMS her work.

It's not about IF she has rights, it's how far those rights should cover her before before people start calling her on her inappropriateness.

Look at Advanced Machines for IC2... a mod that pretty much duplicates and improves machines contained in Alblaka's mod. Are Alblaka's panties in a bunch over that? I understand Alblaka is Alblaka, and Eloraam is Eloraam- but that brings us back to Community Precedents and calling her on her inappropriateness when she goes too far.

(3) - Well... if ya wanna get personal about it... I don't think it's a matter of simplicity for me. I think it may be you and the complexity.

Quote from Bluehorazon

(1) - Hmm... I guess this is her decision. It's much the same with FC. If you have a mod and a plan for it you are quite careful that nobody fiddles around with it.

(2) - BtW is the extrem, no touching the mod or even using it in Modpacks, the only conversions are created by FC himself (BtB). Eloraam despite the troubles they both had goes mainly the same road, that's mainly because both made bad experiences with such things, basically modpacks.

(3) - If you say that support for an addon is given by the creator you are totally wrong. She was thinking about a forum, because in there you could just ban everyone that ask's stupid questions or bothers you with things that are not of your concern... but still it is work you have to do.

(4) - And still the problem with asking stays the same. If you don't ask you have no chance. Of course the chances of approval were small, but that doesn't make asking obsolete (exspecially if you do the opposite of the answer you would expect).

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(1) - But nobody is fiddling with her works here, if anything it's a question of purity. RP purists wouldn't have to install the mod, and can play the way Eloraam wants them to play. It's a question of options for the people that want to play differently that Eloraam's 'plans' would allow. Or maybe just want to use her mod, but can't because certain features because she hasn't fully implemented her plans. If this mod would have been allowed to go forward, the we would be able to use it to build our current system up. Immibis' mod could be a PLACEHOLDER for Eloraams' later implementation. Or just until the Blutric system is more fleshed out in general. Immibis' mod would allow us to use the IC2 power system to supplement Eloraams' system until she can build her's out a bit more.

(2) - ModPacks would be another acceptable use of license enforcement. ModPacks are using her mod in it's entirety without permission. The modpacks CONTAIN her code in it's entirety. Immibis' sub-mod had nothing but changes and original material.

(3) - how am I wrong that support is given by the creator? Does Mojang give support for RedPower, IC2 or BuildCraft? No, support for RedPower comes from Eloraam. IC2, Alblaka. And BC support comes from SpaceToad. Does SpaceToad support Forestry? No, you go to SirSengir for Forestry related support. If Eloraam starts a forum, appoints trusted mods for said forum and THEY handle what shows up. If Eloraam had her own forum and appointed her own trusted moderators then in effect that would reduce that amount of crap she'd have to deal with. Regardless, Eloraam would not be obligated in any way to fix issues with Immibis' mod.

(4) - Do you read EVERY EULA of every bit of software you install? Typically not. You trust that the EULA will fall in line with the EULA's of similar.

Knowledge that there are BC<>IC2 conversion mods in the community already could lead one to believe that is an acceptable use within the community, it's the fact that Eloraams actions and interpretations are so far out of line with what has become the standard of the community. I'm sorry, but in this respect I just do not see Eloraam being community minded at all, more of an island continent with incredibly restrictive import/export policies.

Again, I fail to see how Eloraam felt her work had been so violated that she had to enforce her license. It's crap like this that leads to SOPA\PIPA. It's game companies getting pissed about people posting YouTube videos of them playing the game. How does someone watching a video of someone else playing a game infringe on the game makers copyright? It's people taking things too far and out of context. It's people not being able to recognize 'Acceptable Usage'. Eloraams' mod was not hurt in anyway- only her plans for a proprietary , competition-free playing field.

***Sorry... I messed up earlier and originally posted this over my previous post. Thankfully I had an old tab open and was able to fix my mistake.***

@HeadHunter; Immibis has gotten quite a bit of attention in this thread. But in the interest of full disclosure, it's not about Immibis for me, it's about Eloraam.

Thanks to that license quote a few posts back, it appears that Immibis will do what he wants even if there is something to expressly prohibit it. But at the same time, the RIAA expressly prohibits it but I still have been known to download a song from time to time. I also make it a point to buy albums from a band's merch table when they come to town and have the shelf of shrink-wrapped CD's to prove it. In the cases of some bands, the shrink-wrapped CD's were in addition to the 'listening copy' of the CD.

It's not about express prohibition, it's about the source and circumstances. Do I need to rant about the RIAA? It's not about the 'rules', it's about why there is a rule.

quote;HeadHunter - I'm not sure where people get this image of Eloraam as some egotisitical indivdual with an attitude.

Because that is the image that she has cultivated through actions such as this. You might have a different opinion of her because you have a different relationship with her with different interactions. To someone not in her 'inner-circle' it's quite easy to form such an opinion because that is the image that is readily available. Trust me, I didn't TRY to form this opinion. Don't much care for it, really.

quote;HeadHunter - Mothing gives anyone the "right" to make an add-on when the author has explicitly prohibited it.

And my point that there was no need to prohibit uses such as this. It's a matter of context and fairness. Immibis wasn't taking anything away from Eloraam anymore than SirSengir or Krapht have taken anything from SpaceToad. If anything Sengir and Krapht have made SpaceToad mod BETTER, for people that use their sub-mods, by not stifling their efforts to build upon his system.

If someone were STEALING from Eloraam than I would be on her side on that just as much (likely more) as I'm 'against' her here.

quote;HeadHunter - 'she's done far more for the Minecraft community (and even the IndustrialCraft community) than any of the people who are pointing fingers at her.'

Not disputing that at all, except the fact that her stifling Immibis sub-mod works against the community much in the same vein that SpaceToad allowing Logistic Pipes and Forestry works FOR the community. And the way that her actions cause strife and strain in the eyes of the community (strife and strain that I am all to aware that I am contributing to with this.)

Freedom of choice... If it comes down to it, let US decide whose conversion method we prefer... Eloraams' planned, yet to be delivered. Or Immibis' here and now. It is OUR game after all. Her mod... OUR games.

Quote from FenixR

(1) - This is going in circles since you are still repeating yourself about eloraam not wanting any "Competition" on the convertion. Forget for a second about the selfish part of eloraam not wanting any kind of Blue<->EU Converter
(2) - Image eloraam didnt even considered the possibility of the converter

(3) - she disallowed the Blue to MJ/EU conversion only because it was already in her development plans. ThaumCraft was never in the picture for her

(1) - I'm not steering this in circles, merely rephrasing concepts that obviously don't take root the first time I try to plant them. I'll quote myself...

Quote from Saul_Goode

(7) - Such as that's the case, I'm here to call attention to the fact that her enforcement of her license is crap. As I previously stated, I've not looked directly at her license, and as no one has commented to the contrary I still assume her's is a variant of what's known as Community Copyright and as such is not intended to have this effect on DERIVATIVE WORKS.

(8) - I'll give it to you. This is a sticky one. But this is also one that a bit of pressure from the community would help immensely with. If Community Precedent would hold then immibis' usage of her code would have been acceptable, as mentioned previously there are at least 3 BC<>IC2 converters. A RP2 <> IC2 (or RP2 <> BC mod for that matter) SHOULD be allowed.

If it's not about competition then why can there be ONLY one Blu<>EU converter (hers)? And if she's 'not allowing ANY conversion mods', then why would she grant permission to a Thaum<>RP2 but not a IC2<>RP2? If it's not competition then why is it OK for someone to do something she's not planning and it's not OK to do something she is planning? It's not about ANY KIND of Blu<>EU transfer, it's about 'nothing but her's'.

(2) - Honestly- I think she'd have more of a leg to stand on if there was NO conversion, her's or otherwise. Her stance would still be objectionable due to Community Precedent- For me Alblaka and SpaceToad set the precedent here. It's her license, I get that... but see where I quoted my own earlier comment (7). I don't have issue with her having a license or using it to protect her work. I would not object at all if someone tried to steal her mod and she used her license to protect herself, immibis is not trying to steal anything from her.

Alblaka pulling the plug on the unauthorized 1.1 port is a totally acceptable license enforcement. It was his code in it's entirety.
Eloraam pulling the plug on a conversion mod isn't. immibis LOOKED at her code and wrote his own. It may state that he isn't allowed to do so, but again that's where community precedent and community pressure come back in. (See my comments about TMI vs. NEI).

Having a license is fine if you need to protect your work, Eloraam didn't need to protect her work here.

(3) - Precisely why I view this as being about competition. She has her own plans for IC<>RP and BC<>RP, so anything else would be competing against HER method of converting. She has no plans for Thaum<>RP2 so there's no competition for her there. If, as she herself has stated, 'In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity', "any" is all-inclusive, allowing some while disallowing others is not 'ANY' it is 'SOME'. She is only allowing converters that she has no plans for. NO PLANS FOR. If she's not intending to do it then she'll allow it because, again, it's not competition for her. Allowing *certain* mods she doesn't intend to do herself goes directly against her original statement of specifically disallowing ANY conversion mods. She is only disallowing the things SHE PLANS to do, not the things she doesn't.

Quote from Bluehorazon

(1) - Well... you know that the creator of TMI tried to shut down NEI, but since chickenbones just recoded the whole mode so no TMI-Code is used there wasn't a way to hold this. And NEI is another good example, because it has a Redpower-Addon. Why does it have it? Because ChickenBones just asked Eloraam for permission... it's as simple as this.

(2) - It's what he did, or better what he did not. Eloraam already said that she might provide an API to allow Addons like BC or IC2 have them.

(3) - a) But she also said that the mod is in an too early stage of development for this to happen. b) You could just ask, if she says no, fine then you don't waste any time, if she allows it even better.

(4) - The problem is that the mod might break her conversion, because it has another value. Imagine he changes 1:1 and Eloraam 1:2 by installing both mods you could create an endless cycle of power-generation. And of course people will ask her why she doesn't use the transformation-rates immibis took and so on...

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(1) - Yes, I'm aware that TMI's maker took issue with NEI. And that was kind of my point in bringing that up. Look how SIMILAR NEI and TMI are. Yet because NEI consists of code that ChickenBones wrote it's allowed to move forward. Regardless of what extent ChickenBones used TMI in order to make NEI. So long as he didn't directly copy TMI's code then his is allowed to move forward. He may have looked at TMIs' code to see how it did what it did, but looking at the TMI code was not enough. It was HIS code that he eventually released.

(2) - Eloraams own comments on this prove that it's not about whether he asked or didn't...

quote;@eloraam - "In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."

Establishes that it's not a question of permissions, it's a question of Eloraam making a proprietary system.

quote;@eloraam - "I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module, I am currently planning IC and BC, though. That's why I'm not allowing those modules at all."

PROVES it's more a question of making a proprietary system for her. She is clearing the field of competition in this area.... 'I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity' and 'I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module' are at direct odds with each other.

(3) - a) So, WHAT... if the Blutricity system changes then it's up to the sub-modder to deal with that down the road. b) asking in this scenario would have ended essentially the same. Asking first wouldn't have resulted in immibis being allowed to release his mod. Eloraam still would have said no as it 'interferes with her plans'. immibis wouldn't have made his release topic, and I wouldn't have made this thread and this conversation wouldn't have ever taken place. Eloraam has PROVEN that the would not have allowed this mod. She doesn't have conversion plans for Thaumcraft so that's ok.... Because it doesn't preempt HER plans, so she doesn't see it as 'competition'.

(4) - Again, so what? If immibis' mod breaks RP2 then no one will want to install the conversion mod. Eloraam wouldn't have to support conversion mods because they aren't her's. If the mod introduces undesired effects, what of it? The conversion mod wouldn't be required to use RP2. Same reasoning as the current BC<>IC2 mods having config files for the conversion rates, so the people using those converters can tweak the exchange rates as they see fit.

Quote from FenixR

Like Frantic Fanatic Said, it all boils down to a matter of asking permision

... see my response marked (2) and (3b) above.

Quote from Moriarty

it is really the ctime? when it is the mtime then a simple "touch filename" can do the job also.

Then you have to do that every time you change anything- either copy all your mods one by one and in order, or touch the mods one by one in order. Add a mod? Update a mod? You'll have to manually sort the load order every time.

Or you can set up a vfat that acts like it's own windows filesystem and fix the problem permanently... assuming the most recent ML doesn't fix it.

Quote from HeadHunter67

(1) - no one can make her do anythign with her mod that she doesn't want to do. Force her to share (not that anyone has the right to) and she'll just stop developing altogether. Would that help anyone in any way?

(2) - Because it is a perfect example of Alblaka asserting his right to determine how his content may be used. It compares perfectly, because what we're really talking about is each developer's right to share or protect their content as they see fit.

(3) - The fact of the matter is, all you know of this issue is what you've read here. You're clearly not familiar with the working relationship between the Forrge developers, nor Eloraaam's development of her mod or any other side of the story but what you see through this one narrow window. Like it or not, that's not the big picture.

(4) -

• Just because Mojang chooses to share doesn't mean Eloraam is obligated to.
• denying Eloraam the right to do the same with her code.
• This isn't "turnabout", and your attitude shows a marked lack of respect for the person without whom Immibis would have nothing to try and mod in the first place.

(5) - I'm not "being difficult"... ...What's "difficult" is trying to get you to understand that she has the right to do as she pleases with what she's created, and no one has the right to take that from her.

(6) - it may come as a shock to discover that she's probably never heard of you and honestly doesn't consider your opinion in her development plans.

(7) - What she did was explicitly permitted by Mojang's license- what Immibis did was explicilty not permitted by hers.

(8) - ...to permit or deny specific uses, and to restrict distribution of add-ons based off her code...

(9) - If you still have a problem with this, the person with whom you should be discussing it... is Eloraam. Pontificating to us will get you nowhere. If you're seeking change, take it to the source.

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(1) - It's not a question of SHARING. For it to be sharing Eloraam would have to lose something. Sharing is 'If I share my cookies with you, then I will have less to enjoy for myself.' Eloraam is not GIVING immibis code. In effect immibis made his own cookies using Eloraams' recipe. Or her oven... something. Somehow the analogy can be made to fit.

Point is there is no question of "forcing" her to share. As for the rest..? Things could be done to help modify her behavior in situations such as this. I'll come back to this topic at the end after I finish responding to quotes.

(2) - No... it's not a perfect example. Not at all. The 1.1 port was just that. A port. It was a guy taking Alblaka's ORIGINAL code, changing just the few small details he saw that needed to be changed to make it work again. immibis CREATED a new functionality where there was none before. The port STARTED with Alblaka's code. immibis started by LOOKING at Eloraams. Not a perfect example at all.

(3) - I know enough that Alblaka made a BLOG post stating 'I don't hate her. We talked- we're good.' I can't site the references but I know that nothing that I have seen in the general community thus far has done anything to change the opinion that I have started to form of her. And to be honestly honest, it kinda pains me because she is obviously a very talented developer and I think it would be quite nice to think she was a nice person as well. Ego and attitude, ego and attitude. They speak volumes about a person.

(4) -

• Again, it's not sharing. Eloraam gave immibis nothing, except a mod to mod as you pointed out. So I'll agree here, she's not at all obligated to share.
• I'm not talking about her code. I'm talking about the code of immibis' derivative work. There's a difference.
• It is turnabout. Aside from the confusion on what her power should be over derivative works, immibis uses her code much the same way she used Mojangs. Therefore, turnabout. And yes, I rank ego and attitude over programming ability when I dole out my respect. I have more respect for Alblaka, SpaceToad, and SirSengir than I do for Eloraam. Eloraam may be the best coder of the lot, the other some of the other developers have proven to not be total dicks for the most part. As I stated earlier, it honestly kinda pains me. But that is the public image that Eloraam seems to be content to cultivate for people like me to come along and form. Don't come at me with 'respect', I know all about it and can tell you what it's about. I respect her abilities, but like I said... 'for people like me to come along and form.'

(5) - Sorry. But I feel you are. For me it's not a question of what Eloraam has created, it's a question of what immibis has created. Immibis is taking nothing from her. He, in essence, was killing time learning how to mod by making a mod that Eloraam herself has said that she plans to make obsolete anyway. Great idea if you ask me, practice making mods by making a sub-mod that you know you won't have to update and support once the original mod's maker gets around to it. Your seeming inability to grasp the preceding concept is what makes me feel you are being difficult, the concept that immibis has *taken* nothing from Eloraam.

Eloraam would still be free to implement her own conversion plans at a later date. Hell, if anything she could move her own conversion plans DOWN a bit for the time being to allow her to concentrate on more integral parts of her great mod sooner.

(6) - And it's your comments like these that cause people to "make things about you". Eloraam doesn't know me, Alblaka doesn't know me, SpaceToad doesn't know me... loads of people don't know me. Actually, nobody knows me. At least not as "Saul_Goode". That really doesn't matter to me at all though. All that matters is that the people that know me, love me. And that's good enough for me, `cause that's all that matters to me. Mm'kay?

(7) - Such as that's the case, I'm here to call attention to the fact that her enforcement of her license is crap. As I previously stated, I've not looked directly at her license, and as no one has commented to the contrary I still assume her's is a variant of what's known as Community Copyright and as such is not intended to have this effect on DERIVATIVE WORKS.

(8) - I'll give it to you. This is a sticky one. But this is also one that a bit of pressure from the community would help immensely with. If Community Precedent would hold then immibis' usage of her code would have been acceptable, as mentioned previously there are at least 3 BC<>IC2 converters. A RP2 <> IC2 (or RP2 <> BC mod for that matter) SHOULD be allowed.

While I'm here though, this is kinda my point. It has been precedent for mods such as this to be allowed, and they should be allowed. It's apparently been OK with SpaceToad and Alblaka for people to use their mods in this manner up to this point and I think it illustrates in stark contrast how out-of-tune one part, of what many consider to be a triad, is. I dunno, maybe I kinda wish the other two-thirds of that triad would lean a bit harder to get things back to a seeming equilibrium. Moving on...

(9) - I understand that and have told myself just that every time I sit down to reply to this, facts-of-the-matter are that I'm lazy and already have registered here. And two, I think I initially thought this thread might have possibly gone differently and I might have been able to suggest to Alblaka that he allows the mod to exist here and tells Eloraam that she can choose whether or not to allow it on her forums. But as Alblaka stated in his first response, he doesn't agree with her attitude but is willing to comply and enforce. Besides, I figure that there is a better than good chance that if something ends up being said here worth her reading then she will most likely be directed here by /somebody/... She managed to find the mod sub-mod in question here after all. ... Additionally, Alblaka has also proven himself to be somewhat tolerant of respectable levels of dissension... ...something I'm not %100 certain can be said to be as true in Eloraams' case...

Other than that, I know there was something else I said I'd address further down here, but I'm tired and I lightly touched on it again in (9), so good enough. I'm gonna go put my feet up for a bit before bed.

Before I go though... I'm not trying to devalue Eloraams mod at all. Just trying to give a bit of value to immibis sub-mod. He accomplished something here and it doesn't seem fair for him to get trampled under an established name like this. Look at how similar TMI and NEI are, yet NEI was allowed to continue as it was a product of ChickenBones' labor. I know it's Eloraam enforcing what she feels her license entitles her to enforce, but that brings us back to Community Precedents and Community Pressure. With that, Goodnight.

Have you considered 2 machines? My suggestion would be to find a cheaper dual-core on craigslist and use that as a dedicated server... There are single cores that would likely do the job, but then you have to start looking at the actual processor's speed.

See if you can find a cheap dual-core with at least 2 gigs of memory to use as a dedicated server with a command line only Linux install. No need for a mouse, monitor, keyboard or speakers. You should be able to find such a system for ~<$200. I think I saw something in your OP about $800-$900. that would leave you ~$700 for your 'gaming' machine which should be more than enough regardless of if you buy or build. This would take the 'server' load off the machine that you are trying to play on.

Quote from Alblaka

The only known issue with Linux in regard of IC is it's nasty habit to ignore alphabetical order, which can essentiall cause addons to malfunction if they are loaded before IC2 is.
However, i've read the most recent ML version fixes this problem. Not entirely sure though.

If the new version of ML does not indeed fix the load order issue, I have a workaround that has proven successful on my own server. I made a 50mb file formatted as a vfat file system and mounted that file as my 'mods' folder. This causes the files in the mods folder to be loaded similar to the way Windows orders the files to load.

If needed I can provide more details, if anyone needs just PM me to remind me to do it when I'm not on my laptop.

Quote from Alblaka

The main issue with a MCForge integrated converter is the fact the energy systems tend to differ a lot.
Would be hard to generalize them, I guess.

But if Forge made an energy system then it would be the same as all other things Forge handles of a similar nature. 'Here's the energy system that forge uses, If mod makers want to claim 'Forge-Compatibility' it's up to them to bring their energy systems in line. More or less same story as ores and the the ore dictionary. Yes?

Quote from HeadHunter67

(1) - Immibis' code is useless without Eloraam's code. He's even explicitly admittied that he had to decompile her code to make it. The difference between modding her work and modding Mojang's, is that Mojang gives permission to do so. Alblaka has prohibited certain uses of his code - look no further than the abortive "1.1 update" someone tried to release the other day.

(2) - It's one thing to make an add-on that may be depreciated by an official development - it's another thing to make a mod that one knows will be obsoleted soon enough. Eloraam has already stated that she intends to implement BT<->EU transfer in the near future.

(3) - There's no "maybe" - she's worked closely with him on things. It would appear that you get all of your infomation merely from this forum, and from no other source. If you read their blogs and her thread on the MC forums, you would have a more complete picture of how they work together.

(4) - The whole truth of the point is, it's HER bar Immibis is using! Or that people will prefer to use an add-on that doesn't permit you to use HD textures.

(5) - ... Except for the all-important "decompiles in violation of the license".

(6) - ...except for the "with permission of the other developer".

(7) - Eloraam isn't stopping anyone from doing what she does with Mojang's code - she uses Mojang's code in accordance with the license and with Mojang's permission.
Immibis cannot say the same - he decompiled her code in violation of her license, without her permission, and without even her knowledge. There's no comparison.

(8) - I think that even Alblaka will agree that it is important to respect the wishes of his fellow developers, so don't lean too heavily on his praise for your method.

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(1) - Valid. In that light I really need to stop making these posts. But something's I do with the idea that maybe my post will be the one that inspires someone else to make some changes. In some fairy land I secretly hope that maybe my protest post will be the one that makes someone say, 'Ya know... I like Eloraam. I like the work she does. But she needs a check.' Maybe one of these times someone will decide that Eloraam has done similar enough times and decide to do something about it. I'd not hate being the inspiration for something like that.

Beyond that, Eloraam's code is useless without Mojang's. It'd be nice if she kept that in mind, and allowed others some leeway when they try to working off of what she has built.

Again- the abortive 1.1 attempt really does not compare here. Why keep bringing it up? immibis' mod was a mod of his own creation. There was nothing converting RP2<>IC2 energies when he started. Was when he finished. The 1.1 porter took Alblaka's code, tweaked what was broken. You're coming down on this 1.1 porter awfully harshly. He posted the port HERE, he wasn't trying to steal it or pass it off as his own work. His 1.1 port was offered more in the 'Here's a IC2 that works with MC 1.1, if Alblaka let's me, then I'd like to release it for until the official build is out. I doubt that guy expected his port to become the overnight official build.

Point is- RP2 <> IC2 conversion mod is apples to the bootleg IC2's oranges.

(2) - Soon enough is not now. My point is what's the point of shutting down someone *now* for what you are planning to do *eventually*. Besides, sooner Eloraam adds the conversion to her mod the sooner she could make immibis' mod functionally obsolete. Sooner she adds her own conversion the sooner she could make the sub mod obsolete through lack of necessity as opposed to a bullshit DMCA-esque TakeDown Order.

(3) - You're going too far into this. Taking things WAY out of context. Maybe not. Maybe her attitude about things like these would be grounds to reconsider working relationships. But they aren't my relationships and therefor not mine to reconsider. If Alblaka were willing to change his mind and allow the mod to remain posted here this might be a topic of conversation then. Please don't start with the 'You don't pay attention to enough sources for your info' crap again, went through that already. Thanks.

(4) - Uh... no? Because currently there is no bar because Eloraam already knocked over the one that immibis was trying to set up. Keeping in mind the bar I was referring to was the one for RP2 <?> IC2 power conversion. Eloraam does not have a bar for immibis to meet yet as she has not implemented power conversion yet. And give him a break on the HD-textures bit. First mod, less than a day old... I'm sure he'd sort that out eventually... had he be given the chance that is....

(5) - Honestly I've not looked at her license agreement, and I'm not willing to at this instant. But as far as I'm concerned- You cannot place restrictions on your work prohibiting others from doing to yours what you did to create yours. It's how the game works. She decompiled Minecraft to allow her to create her mod to function as she pleases, placing restrictions on others for what she has done makes her a hypocrite. It's how it is. She modded Minecraft. immibis modded RP2. Turnabout is fair play mothereffer.

(6) - And my point, HeadHunter, since you insist on being difficult- Is that this is one of those times that she should have allowed it. Mods are mods. She mods, immibis mods. Let the kid mod, be honored in some small way that his first mod involves your mod and make a mental note that you need to move your own conversion mod up on your mental 'to-do' list. Would have been a much better way for her to handle this. Sure beats adding to the list of 'Thing's Eloraam does that Suck.' list.

(7) - Why can't you grasp the concept of Eloraam keeping people from doing to her code what she does to Mojang's code is over-reaching in this case. I'm assuming that her license agreement is a variant of some Community Copyright, in which case those are intended to prevent what would amount to plagiarism, not derivative works, as you are suggesting. immibis' converter mod being the derivative work.

(8) I wasn't. He complimented my writing style, I acknowledged. I know he has different views in some area than I, but I also think I can get away with saying things that he can't. Like I said in my OP. Both of his actions were totally understandable given his position. Aside from that- I think I'll take praise as it's given, even if that means with a grain of salt from time to time. Thanks for keeping my ego in check for me though.

Quote from Moriarty

For me the more interesting question is, why mods like IC2, RP2 and Buildcraft must have thei own converters? The problem exists because forge don't have an converter in it. I mean, forge has an ore library to make mods compatible with each other, why not an energy coupler with an databse to convert energy units from one system to another?

Good question. Be great if this was the solution the Forge (ahem) developers would pursue. I dunno, probably not get developed due to interfering with Eloraam's future plans.

@Alblaka- Thank you for your compliment's and allowing me my soapbox (again). Agreeing with the majority of my points goes a long way a well. ;D

HeadHunter67 - here we go...

Quote from HeadHunter67

(1) - It is her work, and hers to do with as she sees fit. Perhaps you would be fine with letting everyone else use your code as they see fit, but then again, perhaps you wouldn't.
(2) - You're free to write your own mod that does the same sort of thing. As far as I can tell, there's not even anything stopping you from changing the existing mod for your own use - if you didn't distribute it, you might have a point there.
(3) - Version control and consistency are the primary considerations. A few days ago, we watched someone waste his time making a "1.1-compatible" version of IC (and BuildCraft) here. Great for the impatient few who have to have it "now"... until the official version releases, and it's not compatible anyways. Then all that time they spent is wasted anyhow.
(4) - Why would anyone want to waste their time writing a mod that they know will become obsolete because the idea is already in the official design process?
Ask Jorge what he thinks of FC making his IC<->BTW dynamo add-on obsolete. Then ask him if he'd have made the mod anyways, if he knew FC would change BTW to no longer be compatible with IC2.
(5) - Well, then... you and she would have to accept that, wouldn't you? Do you think she made plans for such a conversion without talking to Alblaka first?
(6) - As my friend SOTMead has observed, there is a big difference between ideas and implementation. Ideas are meaningless here - it's how they are implemented that matters. The best implementation should naturally prevail.
(7) - You, however, seem to be confusing ideas with intellectual property. She may do something similar to what others have done, but she does it her own way - she writes her own code, she doesn't hack someone else's and release without permission.
(8) - Emphasis on "her own". She didn't make an add-on that borrowed someone else's energy or tubes without their permission. If you want a fair comparison, imagine if Redpower just used BC pipes and IC EU's... and without SpaceToad or Alblaka's approval. That would make it a proper comparison... but that's not what it's like.
(9) - Also, these developers are all part of the Forge team, and have committed to the mutual platform that allows interoperability of their mods. Add-on developers are not part of that compact and nothing gives them the right to hack the code for their own purposes.

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(1) - Not her work. immibis's work that hooks into her work. Into Alblaka's work. Same way her work hooks into Mojang's work. Elorram is coming down on something that is typically encouraged by other modders. Alblaka and SpaceToad come to mind. Where would SirSengir's Foresty be if SpaceToad took a stance similar to what Eloraam is taking on this?

(2) - I could. Sure. I understand that. I've thought about getting into modding Minecraft, but honestly- Maybe for after if I leave a current project I'm involved with. I'd also need a good original idea to build on. But starting with rebuilding other people's sub-mods would be a good place to start. Now's not the time for that, however.

Regardless- change what existing mod? the one that had the link removed and is thusly unavailable since it can't be downloaded?

(3) - Version control and consistency? How does that apply to Eloraam requesting the takedown of a sub-mod that will one day be made obsolete by the mod itself?

Counterfeit 1.1 IC2 comparison doesn't apply. unauthorized port isn't comparable to a needed submod. Doubtful Eloraam will go about the conversion the same way that immibis used? A veteran modder doing it the same way as a total rookie? It's accepted that Eloraam will make this mod obsolete, I don't think anyone will complain if she does it better. ...eventually...

(4) - Someone looking to get started with modding and seeing a need, perhaps? Question isn't who would want to,question is what is right if someone does. Like I said above- chances of Eloraam and immisis doing it the same... possible Eloraam's way might be better... It's a risk modders take. Mojang might take anybodies idea at any time. Before pistons were vanilla- they were a mod.

(5) - And look at what that mentality would do to modding. If every modder took this tactic. And maybe she has talked to Alblaka, maybe she hasn't... Not sure it would stop her if he did object.

(6) - Well and good. And when Eloraam gets around to it if her 'ideas' about conversion are indeed the best implementation of the concept then her method will prevail and make the immibis's mod obsolete. Before that it sets the bar that she will have to beat. Maybe that's the fear.

(7) - This makes me question earlier points. #1 - It's not her code, RP2 is her code. immibis's converter is his code. His does nothing to her's that her's does not do to Mojang's. And presumably will do to Alblaka's once she gets to making her own energy conversion idea's more of a reality. What she is doing here is nothing to do with intellectual copyright, it's about preemptive copyright. 'You can't make that mod because I'm *planning* to make that mod."

(8) - She made them. yes. From what I see though, she had time to look at the IC2 and BC variants and come up with tweaks to the ideas to make them her own. The IC2 and BC systems were her inspiration though.

This wasn't really about comparing the mods though. It's about comparing the attitudes of the mod developers to their respective communities. Specifically, the developers of sub-mods. What would the future of BuildCraft's Logistic Pipes be if Krapht had to deal with SpaceToad in the same capacity?

(9) - Interoperability until Eloraam decides to make her own that is capable of replacing the previous. If Eloraam was living up to her part of that agreement then she would have limited her impact to making... I dunno, A 'BuildCraft' module that only adds machines to SpaceToad's system. If she needed changes to be made to the BuildCraft piping system then she should *collabotae* with SpaceToad on those modifications. Same for Alblaka with energy related concerns. Maybe then she would have more time for some of her larger plans...

They aren't hacking the code. They are using the same tools Eloraam, SpaceToad, Sir Sengir, Alblaka and a hundred other modders are using. This is about Eloraam doing everything she can to keep other people from essentially the same thing she does with Mojang's code. immibis's code simply touches hers along the way.

That being said... I'm tired of typing on my laptop while sitting on the floor.

"Conversion Mod" = A mod that is intended to serve as a bridge for functionality between 2 mods.

Recently, (today I think) a user posted a new mod in the 'Pending Addons' section aimed at conversion between the RP2 and IC2 energy systems. Almost immediately Eloraam jumped on it and requested it be taken down as it was released without her permission and because it 'interferes' with her future plans for the 'technology'. Alblaka complied by removing the download link and locking the thread. Both of Alblaka's actions perfectly understandable, given his position.

My goal with this post is to show that while Eloraam's reason's are understandable concerns, their validity is questionable.

1) - Her permission; Is kind of in violation with the ideals of the game. It's a fact that modding is a very large part of Minecraft (look around, we're talking about a mod for mods here). The ability to 'make it your game', the ability to throw a few mods in to facilitate playing the game the way *you* want to play it. ie: 'I'm tired of mining for resources' > Install BuildCraft > Build Quarry. Viola! My game. My way.

What if her reasoning here was applied to Minecraft as a whole? What if Mojang got into the game of approving 'official' addons? All others disallowed?

2) - Her future plans; Future plans are fine... for the future. But in the here and now, what's the harm? In the here and now, the ability to 'tap' into a mod with a better developed energy system (IC2's) to supplement the technology of a mod with a less developed energy system (RP2's current system) would be very nice.

Players are dreaming up and building things every day, to make that wait somewhere on a plate that is as full as Eloraams seem's foolish when there is a solution here, now. Furthermore, Eloraam's future plans can make this sub-mod obsolete when those plans become 'New Features'. Who want's to install an additional sub-mod to do something that's contained in the mod?

3) - quote;eloraam "In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."

Oh really now? What if, I dunno.... say, Alblaka denies permission to convert into IC2 compatible EU's? Not saying he would, but what if....? Alblaka would in essence be doing the same thing to Eloraam as she is doing to immibis (maker of the RP<>IC2 converter).

4) - Closing; In short, I don't feel as though Eloraam is playing fair. She will 'borrow' ideas for her own mod, but has a strict 'Hand's-Off' policy for others looking to work with her mod. I know that Eloraam is likely the best modder going right now, but she needs to not be quite so... hypocritical, I guess. She makes her own 'tube' system. Her own 'energy' system. Yet she shuts down any attempt to ease compatibility between similar, 'competing' mods. It wouldn't surprise me at all if her 'future plans' for Blutric conversion were somehow one-way only as well.

5) - End Rant; (The irony of this happening a day after the SOPA\PIPA protest is not totally lost on me.)

edit: As an afterthought- How many BC<>IC2 converters are there? 3? Each doing it a slightly different way?
...let the mod's exist, let the users decide what (and which) to install. /edit.

Quote from silentdeth

Hmmm it looks like IC2 isn't loading or is loading out of order. Are you on windows? If not then that might be the issue, I think other OSes use file date instead of name.

Quote from FnordMan

edit: ok, after a full week of badgering the author of ModLoaderMP (and a full week of lame excuses) has *finally* said he did the (like 2-6 line tops) fix and is sorting the file list. Not sure if the forum post has been updated yet though.

Well, I went ahead with the method in the /edit: of my previous post (making a vfat loopback file space) and it appears to have made a difference... yep, just got back from in-game where I successfully made a 'Small Electric Engine'. Additionally, my issues with StormBringer's (Zeldo's) pipes are gone as well. (with certain recipes a crafted item immediately disappears, mats return to crafting grid.)

So... woot...

Ubuntu.

hrm... I've looked at so many ModLoader logs tonight, it's getting hard to keep them straight. Thought the loader log had listed shown IC2 as loaded, but maybe I'm mixing in memories from one of the working logs I was looking at earlier. So... threw the mod back in to get a new 'broke' log to look at and there is definitely some weirdness going on. I think you might be right, Front half of a similarly errored ModLoader log is below, load order seems to be all over the place. RP2-World, RP2-Lighting, buildcraft-server-DA-additionalpipes-31-4, RP2-Core, then a single Buildcraft, forestry, crossover, where it breaks... doesn't even get to a couple RedPowers, several BC modules... yeah... definitely not in alphabetical order.

Suggestion on how I might get ModLoader to load things in the right order if it is indeed by file date? Copy them to the server in reverse order or something?

(front part of previous modloader.txt)

/edit: doing some last minute browsing before I sleep and I think I might take another look at this and possible give it a spin after I sleep for a few hours. http://www.greglincoln.com/tag/modloader/

I'm finally getting around to getting my minecraft updated, and I'm down to just a couple of minor issues. This mod accounting for about 2/3 of those 'minor issues'.

My problem - Server throws errors when adding BC<->IC2 conversion. Was hoping the new 1.14 would fix, but no go

halp please?

<ModLoader.txt> (trimmed to show just the errors, full log was over the 10K forum limit)

Just ask if you need more info...

I'm tired of typing about this.

I think I've tried to make a similar, related point in another recent thread...

Sorry for the double post... but while I was crafting my last post...

Quote from Neceros

Firstly...
-[snip] -
.../end

Great job on the mod, alblaka. I can't wait to try out the new version!

/agree. Totally. 100%.

/also:

Quote from Alblaka

Freeware forum software doesn't support anything but permanent ban or account deletion.

phpBB maybe?