Posts by Saul_Goode

Quote from Bluehorazon

Actually you haven't explained why modders should have the obligation to work for the greater good of the community? Why aren't they allowed just to do what they seems fitting for them.

I view this the same as being born human. We, collectively as a race, agree for the good of the general community that it's not nice to kill people. We may not have officially agreed to those terms, but that won't stop the police from knocking if you go and kill someone.

Developers, in my view, make the same agreement- If you're going to be involved in the community then you have to be working for the community. In the context of the conversation at hand- Immibis did no worse to Eloraam than she has done to Alblaka and SpaceToad.

/edit-add: And it's not asking anything of Eloraam in this case... It's actually asking her NOT to do something. Don't come down on add-ons quite so hard.

Maybe not for you HeadHunter, but your interest was never discussion or the issue at hand, your interest here was to oppose me all along.

You have persisted with inflaming attacks against me when proving my opinion wrong has failed.

My opinion and views still stand, your opinion and views have resorted to 'accept the way things, you'll never change anything so just shut-up.' Your argument's have devolved into the use of demotivational posters... something that proves your opposing view not at all while strengthening mine that you have nothing left to challenge me with (when the topic is taken in context, that is).

I understand that FenixR. But I am not having problems keeping this in context and I'm not the one attacking the other.

I'm trying to discuss things within a certain scope, where as others twist things out of context then try to end it with 'It's the way it is. Accept what is done and stop talking about it, it's not your place.'

HeadHunter...

...why does this conversation bother you so much... nay- Why does my opinion bother you this much? Am I not free to discuss it with others? Did Eloraam appoint you defender of her public image... Did Alblaka appoint you 'Decider of Appropriate'?

Something is clouding your reasoning because it seems that you keep making this about me and how pointless this is instead of showing that my opinion doesn't have merit.

Take things in context instead of twisting them to suit your purposes. ...and WHAT EXACTLY have I back-peddled on.

Quote from HeadHunter67

But the license is the means by which she protects her work. And protection, by definition, implies insulation from threat. So naturally she will enforce her license when she feels her work has been threatened.

Again... there are those that feel it was an imagined threat and that her license need not be invoked.

One of my founding points is that if this was about her work (current work, which is covered by said license) then that is the reason she would have stated from the start. Her motivation for objecting in this case were her future plans, code that she herself has not implemented. Work you have not yet done is not covered by copyright. She has not written her own conversion code yet therefore there is nothing to 'copy'.

Quote from HeadHunter67

That's not up to you or mne to determine - that is solely up to her evaluation.
To begin with, it would set a precedent that people don't even need to extend the proper courtesy of asking for permission to decompile the code and distribute an add-on to her work.

I am free to determine for myself. Opinion. Kinda the point- I object to Eloraams evaluation of this. Therefore, a thread is created.

Precedent- The community itself has been pretty tolerant of this in the past. It all started with Mojang and it would be nice if other mod developers would RESPECT what Mojang has allowed them to do with their code to advance Minecraft Modding to this point. DESPITE still lacking an *official* API. Where would modding be if Mojang had insisted on getting out of beta and with a proper API first?

Mojang has been able to focus on Minecraft by allowing Forge and ModLoader to continue. As a benefit (opposite of harm) Mojang has a better idea of what they need to do with their own API. They have a better grasp on what hooks addon devs actually need.

Quote from HeadHunter67

No, it's about why Immibis felt he didn't need to ask and why you cannot simply respect her right to control the use of her work... ...she doesn't owe anyone an explanation.

Because he's a kid (no offense immibis) that got excited and made an honest mistake? He sat down to learn... he succeeded, and was proud of himself? He didn't intend to harm Eloraam, he simply fell afoul of a developer that is in contrast to the PRECEDENT set by the community around her.

I've not demanded Eloraam appear and account for herself. If that was what I wanted then I would take this to her.
If this is in anyway a concern for her, then she has proven herself capable of posting replies to threads that she objects to.

Quote from Shadowclaimer

Thousands of people have created sub addons for the Technic-esque mods without issues, and there are other RP2 addons floating around. The only reason she removed it was because she had plans to do something of the sort for herself later, NOT because it used her code. I'm not disrespecting anyone here, I'm just saying its a tad overzealous to go squashing addons because of something so childish and simple.

Beautiful. Thank you.

Quote from HeadHunter67

It depends entirely upon the permission of the author whose work you intend to modify.

And thats the point. Right there. Thats all we've been trying to express.

It's not about her license. It's about what she feels threatens her. In this case there are some that think this might have been an imagined threat, and that Eloraam may have been a bit over-sensitive.

Eloraams work WOULD NOT have been harmed, except when layered in half-formed, hypothetical what-ifs.

It's not about her license, it's about IF she needed to object at all.

My GOD... why is it that you cannot view this in the context that it is intended?

Who here would have liked to have seen a mod with this functionality? Who here would like there to be a mod that converts between Eloraams Blutricity and Alblakas EU?

I would have... anyone else? ... ... ... ... anyone?.... ... .. . . somebody? Oh, hey, someone in the back... No?... oh... that was a sneeze?

This isn't about Eloraams license like you all want to make it out to be. There are lots of things that are in violation of all kinds of licensees, it's only an issue when the rightsholder feels infringed and asserts their claim as Eloraam has done here. If this was about her feeling as though her license had been infringed upon I still assert that she would have stated such in her post that got immibiss thread locked. It would have read 'This violates my license.' in place of 'I have my own plans in mind for that.' I still insist that simple statement shows what this is more about for her.

You can mock me all you like with terms like 'Robin Hood' and 'voice of change' or 'folk-hero', but that just tells me that you have resorted name calling after all your arguments have been invalidated. (/edit: Oh, wow... And to think I wrote that before I read the entirety of the last two sentences of HeadHunters last post...)

Quote from HeadHunter67

And pardon me if I'm skeptical about all the support you've "privately" received

Quote from HeadHunter67

I don't doubt you got it

Yet you said that you are skeptical. Doubt is the definition of skeptical.

The focus of this thread has been more about demonizing me and my opinion out-of-context then it has been about discrediting it in-context.

Be honest with yourselves... would you like to see a mod converting Blu<>EU ? Eloraams stance on her license aside, do you see anything wrong with someone taking the long way? ie: doing it without the aid of an official RP2 API? Aside from Eloraam objecting, do YOU see anything wrong with this? Do YOU really think that the future direction of RedPower2 development would have been influenced by this submod.

Honestly... do you think this would have done harm?

Before you answer though... think about it. Don't just jump on the reply button. Think about it... Everything in context. Think and be honest...

(/edit: This was written before I saw HeadHunters' post above, I'm tired but just wanted to say it was written and posted without taking his into account, before I go on to bed.)

Right, And as I've been trying to point out... Eloraam has proven herself to be the type of person that has an extremely one-sided view of cooperation. She has implemented her own version of central concepts of other mods, but is completely unwilling to allow someone else to even look at her code to see how it works.

Silence will never change anything. Change needs a voice, even if it starts with only one.

Quote from HeadHunter67

When I saw that you had created a thread on this topic, my first thought was "here we go again" and I am not surprised.

Which suggests to me that I never had a chance with you. You came in here expecting to be opposition and nothing I had to say was going to eclipse that focus.

Quote from HeadHunter67

Ah, so that's the real reason? You don't care if nothing changes - you're doing this for the gratification of others telling you that you're right? And pardon me if I'm skeptical about all the support you've "privately" received - it would be better expressed openly if it's to accomplish anything.

No... believe me- NOT at all the reason. Probably the reason it made such an impact is how totally unexpected it was. I expected no support in this and the fact that it made it past page one still has my head spinning. I knew from the get-go that this would be an unpopular opinion. My reason for this is that I'd rather be right in the minority as opposed to wrong in the majority.

Be skeptical all you want. I wouldn't lie about getting a PM on a forum. Here's why- I know from my own experience as an Admin and Mod on forums to know that a user with the right mod permission's can read user mail. If that PM wasn't sitting in my box, and someone wanted to they could verify. If it never happened they could expose me and I'd never hear the end of it. The potential damage that would do is not worth the gamble of the lie. I don't question someone not wanting to buy into the negativity of what I'm getting here.

Quote from HeadHunter67

Quite to the contrary - Eloraam has made it clear that she intends to the mod that she wants to play, her way. She's willing to accept suggestions but she's unwilling to let public pressure direct the course of her development..

This isn't about influencing Eloraams' development of her mod. It's not about changing the direction that she goes with RedPower. She's still free to do whatever she wants to do with her mod. This was about immibis' submod. Eloraam would still have been free to to whatever she wanted with RedPower, she still would have been free to implement her own conversion plans, she would have been free to continue to mod for the way she wants to play.

It is your stalwart refusal to acknowledge this that is the reason that I can't 'state my iron-clad facts and let them stand on their own'. This is the reason that I have to repeating things.

Eloraam can still do what she wants with her 'vision'. Immibis' mod would have had no bearing on the direction Eloraam takes.

Quote from HeadHunter67

(1) - You're entitled to your opinion, as poorly-formed and ill-founded it may be - and I'm equally entitled to tell you what I think of it.
(2) - Don't presume to imagine that you've "discredited" anything - the facts still stand. Eloraam's license is exactly what it states, no matter what you imagine it's based on. Use of her mod equals consent to the terms of the license.
(3) - Nothing you've posted has changed Eloraam's license, her will to enforce it, or the cooperation she receives from her colleagues.
(4) - So basically, you've said a whole lot and accomplished nothing.
(5) - then get offended when people are blunt about the futility of it.
(6) - You won't get Immibis' mod cleared,
(7) - you won't get Eloraam to do anything she doesn't want to
(8) - and then you're left defending an add-on for a mod that no longer exists.
(9) - You're right - this is not about me - it never has been. It's always been about you.
(10) - You can say I'm the reason people "make it about me",
(11) - but if your so-called "facts" stood for themselves, all you'd need to do is present them and be done with it.
(12) - So, considering that you've managed to convince no one so far,
(13) - how's it about me again?

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(1) - And that is your opinion... I have a PM from another user that disagrees with your assertion and Alblaka himself has given a nod to how well-argumented my opinion was... You yourself tried to discredit my acknowledgement and appreciation of that. Remember? And I've not tried to deprive you of your opinion, I've just not tolerated your attempts at personal jabs.

(2) - I'm not presuming or imagining anything. It's pretty clear that I've done a better job of defending and reasserting my view's than you have done with your attempts to discount and invalidate mine. Majority of my points still apply while yours are either dead or dying in the ditch a few pages back. Or are you still asserting that immibis stole or harmed Eloraams' works? The only point I've not disputed of yours and still stands is that she does indeed have a license.

(3) - Maybe not now, but perhaps in the future. Do you really think I expect Eloraam to show up and say 'You know Saul... you're totally right. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.' I'm not the first to take up this battle, likely not be the last.

(4) - Merely your opinion. I'm not going to itemize what I feel are accomplishments. But I will say that I whole-heartedly feel as though I accomplished what I set out to do when I started this thread. And more.

(5) - I'm not offended by bluntly being told it's futile. As I've said repeatedly, I never expected this thread to directly change anything, I've left that to others. I'm well aware of the fact that I have no influence over Eloraam, even before you felt it was necessary to point that out to me. The only thing said to me that I've been offended about is you accusing me of something when you do it with regularity.

(6) - Don't expect to. Never really did. What was done was done, this has all been more about the future for me.

(7) - Don't expect to. That's a task better left to others.

(8) - As I tried to point out in (1) of my last post I think what you meant to say here is 'and then you're left defending an add-on that no longer exists for a mod that no longer exists.'

(9) - And you're the only one that tried to make it about you. I certainly never tried. As far as being about me... well, it is MY opinion so I kinda have to be involved, now don't I?

(10) - No... You accused me of making it about you. All I did is say that you were being difficult for repeating the same argument without taking what I had just said into account. How many times did I have to explain to you that immibis TOOK nothing from Eloraam? How many times did I have to explain that nothing was STOLEN? How many times did I have to explain that he didn't COPY Eloraams' work?

(11) - My facts do still stand. The phrasing in Eloraams' takedown post proves what her motivations for 'protecting' her work are. I still say that if it was about any other reason she would have written it as such. THAT is a fact. Feel free to take a swing at it if you think you can. And if all I had to do was 'present' my facts and be done with it.' What am I supposed to do when people make statements that don't apply? Ignore them and pretend they were never stated? Unfortunately that doesn't work, and I've had to excessively defend my views. Proof being the fact that I've had to quote, rephrase and repeat a half dozen times the fact that Eloraams' true concerns are clearly stated within her takedown post and that if it was about any other reason she would have stated it as such in place of the reasons she did state.

(12) - Convince? Perhaps not, but I've seen support of my views. ...I was quite touched and shocked when someone that I've never interacted with took the time and effort to write me a PM to voice their support of my opinions. They didn't have to do that by any means, and the fact they did makes this entire experience worth it despite the negativity of my detractors'.

(13) - Um... probably because YOU accused ME of it. Twice in as many threads I might mention. Great tactic though... accuse someone of something that's not true, then ask them why they are doing it.

Quote from HeadHunter67

(1) - Well, now... where would that leave Immibis? Suddenly, he has an add-on for a mod that no longer exists - and he's part of the reason why.

(2) - you can say you wouldn't care if she cancelled RedPower,

(3) - but if that's true, why bitch about the way she runs things? It's obvious that you do care, and more obvious that you feel you're more fit to tell others how they should manage their own creative endeavors.

(4) - I guess I missed the part that gives you the right to decide how people may or may not restrict use of their work.

(5) - And you still continue to ignore the fact that Immibis needed her code to make his mod - not just because it works alongside RP, but because he had to decompile the code

(6) - (in violation of the license) in order to do so.

(7) - You've still failed to convince me -

(8) - all you've done is repeat the same opinions over and over

(9) - while we remind you of the facts that you refuse to acknowledge.

(10) - All you've done is taken issue with how each developer sees fit to manage their demesne. First it was Alblaka, now it's Eloraam... I guess the only one you have yet to go after is SpaceToad. I'm sure you'll find an issue to campaign against soon enough.

(11) - Better start working on your overly long-winded post for his forums.

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(1) - No, he doesn't. Same reason I gave when you tried to say that I could just change his existing converter, just not release it. He HAD an addon. No longer has it because Eloraam forced it's removal. That's the root of this whole situation. Whether his mod should have been allowed. If his mod still existed this thread would have never been created. Remember? That's what prompted me.

(2) - No, I WOULD care. I would just get over it. I don't WANT it, I'd much prefer an alternative outcome.

(3) - Because I hate it when people reach too far with 'protecting' what 'threatens' their work.

(4) - The part where I'm a 'people' allowed to form and express my own opinion.

(5) - Yes, much in the same way that a person NEEDS a book to learn to read. It's not like she had a converter already in her code that he straight up copy-pasted. Essentially he used her code to say... 'OK, that's how you spell 'cat'..."

(6) - See my response marked (3), the license agreement hers' is based on WAS NEVER INTENDED TO COVER DERIVATIVE WORKS. Community Copyright's were designed to be a fair system that protect creators' while allowing 'fair use'.

(7) - Yet I've managed to discredit 90% of the things that you have come at me with.

(8) - Because people keep coming at me with things that I've already addressed and put down.

(9) - Really? What fact's do I still not acknowledge? That she has a license? That she is enforcing it as she feels appropriate? That it's her mod to do with as she pleases? I acknowledge those things, it's the validity of some of those 'facts' that I fail to acknowledge.

(10) - My only issue with Alblaka was the policy of 'ask=ban' when no real efforts had been taken to preempt the question that people were asking. As I stated in that thread 'All he would have had to do is make a post saying 'We know 1.0 is out, we will be releasing a 1.8.1 bug fix release BEFORE we start on a 1.0 version'. Instead people we waiting for a month and a half when all he would have had to do is say '1.8.1 bug-fix, then I'll have school stuff keeping me busy for a couple weeks.'

(11) - Honestly, I've seen nothing from SpaceToad that would ever make me think I'd be in a similar situation with him. I just don't think he has it in him. Keep in mind he's the one that released Forge with a totally open license (something I'm NOT asking of Eloraam), he's cooperated (nay, helped) with people looking to work off of his work.

(12) - Please don't criticize the fact that I'm literate, articulate and tend to write the way I think. As I said, it's comments like these that cause people to make thing's about you. You've already accused me of 'making thing's about you', stop making it about me when you were the one throwing that accusation around. This isn't about you Mr. "there have to be at least 42 people of below-average intelligence to offset someone with my IQ"... YOU make it about YOU.

You're confusing her methods with what amounts to a damn good mod.

I can provide examples to prove that her attitude has caused issues. The same attitude that I've been talking about, people tolerate her attitude due to her abilities.

It's great that she's got that level of ability, but it's detestable that she has to be tolerated.

Quote

i bet any mod trying to copy it will take a good amount of time to reach the level eloraam has set so far

But several people cooperating with each other, each working on their own part would make MUCH faster progress.

If someone with a more cooperative attitude were at the helm it wouldn't be a matter of waiting on one person to do EVERYTHING. As good as she is she can still only write one piece of code at a time.

Quote from Alblaka

They did.

And what did you tell them...? "I'll get right on that for you?"

I see you added machine upgrades? Great way to achieve that goal.

Quote from FenixR

In the end, its eloraam code. She can have a monopoly on the bluetricity convertors because she made the bluetricity system. You only have proven that eloraam its a selfish human being (And im not saying its a bad thing, society has his way to a make human being that act on selfishness or similar emotions like they are a cancer that should be excised from the world...) and we have proven that she has all the rights to do so.

And if people would stop allowing her to get away with her selfishness, were more willing to call her on it and were less willing to cooperate with her so long as she continues in the same vein then maybe she'd have a reason to approach things differently. So long as she is able to use such tactics and get the results she desires then she has no incentive to change.

Until she sees turning backs and cold-shoulders she won't change. Or at least the threat of if she's as smart as we all seem to think she is.

Quote from Bluehorazon

No the approve for computercraft stayed but she disallowed further uses by other people.

[/quote]

Yeah... your original statement made it seem you were saying the opposite.

Quote from Bluehorazon

There is a great difference if you give some stuff to a random guy or another renown modder.

And your point is what? I'm saying that if it's about unfinished code then she's not going to want ANYONE to touch it. Renowned modder, or not. If it's about the current condition of the Bluetric code then she'd not let ANYONE touch it. Not Immibis nor the maker of Thaum.

Quote from Bluehorazon

Would be nice if thinks would work this way. You would also expect that the creators of modpacks are the guys who get asked if problems arise. But people run straight to the threads of the large mods.

And usually the person that does that gets directed to take their problem the the Pack thread, and usually not even by the mod maintainer. Typically a random user does it before the mod maintainer even see's it.

Quote

Again your not entirely right. If an Addon calls a function which stays the same it might function even with another version. Only MC-Updates will screw it. Eloraam will have to purposely destroy the addon, if she doesn't do so accidently.

That is a VERY large might. When Eloraam releases her own converter she probably WILL have to modify the same functions' the converter is using. It makes sense for her converter to use the same functions' and I'd totally expect her to have to tweak those when hers' is ready for release.

Quote

Exactly this is the point. It put's pressure on her. Her solutions normally aren't that easy and most likely this would be true for the converter too.

Seriously? You consider this a valid reason? Did people flood Alblaka with 'Why don't you make your machines work as fast as the Advanced Machines?' No, they didn't. How does it put pressure on her? She makes her converter her way, people that complain can be told to shut up and use immibis' conversion if they don't like her rates.

Quote

(4) - That's an issue that has nothing to do with this subject... That's simply an issue with Minecraft itself and should be less of an issue once we get an official Mojang API.

I believe it if I see it. ID-Conflicts will still arise and make up about 50% of all errors. But this point is described above.

And with IDconflicts being such a large source of problems, don'cha kinda think that'll be one of the major things Mojang tries to fix? I'll guarantee that as they work on the API they will look to the community to see what issues they should be trying to fix. Jens has already said that he intends modding to be done from an in-game menu, I'd not be at all surprised if the client ended up with a built-in IDresolver.

Quote

Of course I can. The normal process is this:

No... you can't. Providing support for stuff of that nature IS well within the obligations of providing support for your product. Nevermind that this would be Immibis' support issue. Eloraam already gets 'where are the config' questions as it is. It's part of being a mod developer, helping the clueless. No matter what, you'll always get computer users that think the optical drive tray is a "retractable cup holder shelf thingie."

Quote

If you apply this words to ComputerCraft she would had to disallow it too.

Right, and as you said a couple posts back, 'Grey area because she hadn't made things that clear first'.

Quote from FenixR

(1) - and it was in her plans (if you could say it like that),

(2) - She is allowed to change her mind OR her plans

(3) - In Minecraft Forum RP2 thread SOMEONE asked if a thaumcraft Vis<->Blue converter would eloraam responded that it would be possible, if the developer of thaum or someone close did it if permission where to be asked before hand, because she hasnt Thaumcraft compatibility in mind (Honestly thaumcraft its still not famous like the big technological 3, IC2/BC/RP2, so of course you cant blame Eloraam for skipping this mod althogether)

(1) - I CAN say it like that. It's a direct quote that SHE wrote.

(2) - Go reread the quote you commented on. What you wrote has NOTHING to do with the point that I was trying to make. Not in context AT ALL. My comment that you replied to isn't about Eloraam changing her mind, it's about discrediting all the different reason's that people keep giving for Eloraam going this route with this. It's about reasserting that Eloraams' reason's for objecting to this mod are plainly stated in the post that got the converter pulled. The comment that you are replying to is proving that the only reasoning that still stands is that this is about HER eliminating COMPETITION for what SHE is PLANNING.

It's not that she doesn't like people messing with 'In-Progress' code. It's NOT about ALL conversion mods- just the ones that she want's to do HER way.
It's about proving that immibis' mod would not have affected HER implementation IN ANYWAY.

(3) - I don't blame her for not including ThaumCraft. I'm saying that her own comments and actions DO NOT align with the reason's people are trying to justify her actions with.

SHE SAID ANY. 'Any' in this usage is synonymous with 'all'. To say that you'll not allow ANY, then allowing ONE discredits the statement. It shows that it's about HER PLANS. No other reasoning I've seen so far can stand-up to dissection.

She won't allow ANY conversion, BECAUSE SHE HAS HER OWN PLANS FOR THAT. ...except ThaumCraft which she has no desire to do HER way.

It's not about balance. It's not about completeness of the Bluetric code. It's not about Eloraam having to support immibis' mod.

It's about Eloraams' rates being the only rates. It's about Eloraams' conversion being the ONLY conversion. It's about Eloraams' way being the ONLY way.

Quote from FenixR

And technically, the father of forge is spacetoad. So if the decision of deleting forge ever comes (Not that i think it will), it will be Spacetoad who will make that decision and push the delete botton. Its the same with Risugame and Modloader, if she want she could delete it/stop updating and say "fuck you" to the comunity if they piss her, she has the right to do so and delete her source and most importantly FORBID anyone from ever use whatever they have of her source for update with a new version of minecraft, so if you want a new mod loader (In this hypotetical scenario), you would need to make one from SCRATCH.

Actually, Forge is completely Open-Source, only restrictions are that you have to provide the source of any changes you make. Someone could use Forge RIGHT NOW to make their own API, they'd just have to keep it Open-Source as well. Eloraam couldn't destroy Forge even if she wanted to.

Quote from BlueHorazon

(1) - If someone already installed a converter, why should he bother using the other one?
(2) - Not that this is something of her concern, because she already mentioned that most people will use the BC-Crafting machine, because it is cheaper.
(3) - But it will provoke questions like "why don't you use the values this addon uses?"
(4) - and there are a lot of people that aren't even able to solve an ID-Conflict or notice that they have a too old version of forge
(5) - yet to expect modding a config-file to change the values of a transformation is too optimistic.
(6) - I don't say that she would have approved it. But I say that she at least might have thought about it and maybe she would have allowed it for the time until her own conversation would be finished, and of course she could have influenced it to be something she could approved.

(1) - Because it would require a RP2 update, which in turn would require updates for the sub-mod. That's a great time for players to ask themselves... 'Do I still need this sub-mod?' Not installing the sub-mod would save at least one DisplayID and the RP2 version would likely just work better all around.

(2) - I'm not all that familiar with her 'Project Table', but why would she introduce something into her mod this early (I say early considering everything else she says is planned that is still left to do.) that she knows few people will use because another mod has a better version? Just saying... with everything she has planned. Especially considering the "-It’s not nice to copy other peoples work." agreement mentioned in Alblaka's Blog. I don't want to get into a discussion about copying. (Actually I kinda do... I've got a single (only need one) image already worked up in my mind for that one, But let's not, K?)

(3) - 'As far as 'why don't you use the values'... 'because those are the conversion rates that I choose for my converter'. Do the three BC<>IC2 use the same methods and values? Who knows... Maybe Eloraam can find away to make her version THAT much better, that much more appealing to the users to use. Maybe a single RP2 machine that can convert ALL types of energy. She's a bright girl, I'm sure she can figure a way to motivate people to use hers over others. Ya, know... other than the way that led to this.

(4) - That's an issue that has nothing to do with this subject... That's simply an issue with Minecraft itself and should be less of an issue once we get an official Mojang API.

(5) - And yes, a config file WOULD solve the problems with questions of balance... If a player feels things are unbalanced by the defaults then they can change it themselves. You can't bring general computer illiteracy and the habits' of 12 year-olds into this and expect it to stand. Totally out of context with this discussion. But like I said, the problem here isn't with sub-mods it's with Minecraft not having a user friendly method of managing these things yet. In it's current incarnation, under the scope of a 'typical' game company, Minecraft is more of an 'in-house proof-of-concept' than it is a finished commercial product. The only reason 1.0 got the 1.0 designation is because it was a milestone for Mojang more than Minecraft.

(6) - And the way that she stated her objection in immibis' release thread completely discredits this idea. I said last time I was tired of quoting this, yet here I am quoting it again... THIS is going in circles.... "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."

'I've specifically' = A decision she has already made.
'disallowed any' = All inclusive, Any=All. Not some. ALL.
'I have my own plans in mind for that.' = It's not about unfinished code. It's about HER plans.

If it was truly about anything else she wouldn't have stated things the way she did. If it was about unfinished code she would have said 'The code is not ready for that.' At the end. If it was about permission she would have simply stated 'I was not asked for permission.'

If it was about anything else, then that would have been the reason she gave in her 'TakeDown Post.' But it wasn't about those things, so those weren't the reason's she gave.

I'm going to start this thread off by saying that last night and during todays' IC2 site downtime I took some time to 'educate myself a bit' on matter's that apply here... ...and it did NOTHING to cause me to doubt myself. Reinforces my opinion if nothing else... See, as part of my education I stumbled upon the back story of FlowerChild. The fact that FlowerChild left Forge pretty much for the same problem's with Eloraam as I've been trying to point out. That said...

Quote from HeadHunter67

(1) - Antics like this do nothing more than sour Eloraam's interest in modding... ...Is your position so important that you'd rather be "right" than have RedPower to play?

(2) - Because if it is, don't expect me to stand behind you on it.

(3) - Imagine what the game would be like without RedPower.

(4) - Or say she decides that Forge was a bad idea, and the mods you currently use are no longer compatible with one another.

(5) - Then take a good, hard look at what you're contributing to that possible outcome.

(6) - I'm talking about originality.

(7) - One needn't be a copycat to improve one's skills and technique.

(8) -And you can hardly compare Immibis' derivative work to what Forestry and especially Logistics Pipes have introduced.

(9) - and poorly chosen examples to try and defend your point.

(10) - but it wouldn't be done her way.

(11) - She's trying to make the mod that she wants to play.

(12) - Immibis' add-on didn't free up time she could have used to add those Forge hooks - but you can be sure that the time she had to spend defending her work could have been used in that fashion. So I counter that Immibis unauthorized release actually hindered the chance of her completing what ChickenBones needs.

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(1) - As this has been alluded to previously, I'll go ahead and address it now. I've been reluctant to because I know it won't gain me any friends... well, maybe like... 3.

So... how would I feel if Eloraam packed up her mod and told us all to go to hell? Honestly, I'd view it as a child throwing a tantrum and taking her toys home with her. ...It would suck, she has some really cool toys to play with, but I'm sure we'd all get over it eventually (I mean, I would... I'm left to assume for the rest of you...). And who knows, maybe a new kid will move into the neighborhood with the same toys. A cooler, fairer and more willing to let us actually play with their toys kinda kid. Like I said, a child packing up her toys and throwing a tantrum.

(2) - I don't expect you to stand behind me if I say the sky is blue. Pretty sure you'll be there to say it's teal.

(3) - THE game, or MY game? THE game will still be the same. Minecraft will still be Minecraft... MY game?... pretty much the same. I'd miss the redstone wiring but that's about it. And if she left the 'scene' I'm pretty sure there'd be a new one of those along shortly.

(4) - Forge is more than Eloraam. Forge is primarily maintained by LexManos these days, or so I hear. If nothing else the Mojang API should be along shortly.

(5) - Now, with (1), (3) and (4) having been said... I'd really prefer it not come down to that... I'd prefer she modifies her attitude, plays nice and everyone lives happily ever after.

(6) - You REALLLLLLY..... really, really, really don't want to talk originality after what I learned today. Just... trust me, you don't.

(7) - IMMIBIS DIDN'T COPY ANYTHING... ELORAAM DOES NOT YET HAVE A POWER CONVERTER TO COPY.

(8) - It was his first mod, again, give the kid a break.

(9) - Only when taken out of the intended context. I was using them as examples of improvement when given the chance.

(10) - But hers WOULD BE done her way once she got around to it. As I've said before... had she allowed immibis' it would not have prevented her from continuing with her planned converter. At All.

(11) - And that's great... SHE wouldn't HAVE to install immibis' conversion mod if she doesn't want to. It's not like he was trying to get his version COMMITTED into RP2.

(12) - Had she allowed the mod then there would have been no need for a defense. ChickenBones has been waiting since... I don't know when... sometime after 1.8.1, I doubt the three days this has been going on would have had any effect there. As far as the time she's spent defending herself... I've not seen anything here so that tells me that she's been defending herself against other people. Good to know I'm not the only dissenter.

Quote from BlueHorazon

Again, Eloraam is not a forge maintainer, but only a contributor. Everyone is able to add hooks to forge since it's an open-source project. Most things are done by LexManos though. Eloraam does work on Forge, but LexManos does the overall maintaining and obviously the porting.

I'm going off of what it says in ChickenBones' EAQ on his MCF thread. It names Eloraam specifically.

Quote from 'BlueHorazon

She allowed the use because they had spoken with each other, but disallowed it later, since Computers are on her own Todo-List.

So what, first she allowed it but then retracted her earlier permission?

Quote from 'BlueHorazon

No... she never plans a TC-Conversion. And the difference is she allows it to the creator of TC, not a third person.

The comment that you are replying to there is a response to you saying that this is about her not liking people 'messing around with unfinished code' and I was saying that if it WAS about how complete the code is then her rules would have been across the board, Not stopping at where HER plans ended. If it was about the state of the code as you suggested then it would apply to a ThaumCraft converter same as it applies to BC and IC.

Quote from BlueHorazon

It should behave according to the original plans. The problem is that a converter could create situations which are not meant to be created by normal means and cause bugs.

Again... Support comes from the maker of the (sub)mod and those 'situations' and bugs will be up to the converters' maker and the users of the conversion mod to sort. A conversion mod will not create issues for Eloraam or RP users that don't use the mod. It will only create issues for people that decide to install the mod. (aside from stupid users that go to the wrong place for their support issues- A problem no matter the mod or situation.)

::Continued Next Post::

bump- 1.62 is out but the banner up top still reads 1.43

...just something I noticed, figure it just got overlooked due to the site problems earlier today.

Quote from Bluehorazon

(1) - Well... this would defeat her plans about releasing an API later. With said API it would be quite easy to create a power-converter without needing to decompile her code.

(2) - The point is she don't want a conversion to exist before she did it first. RP is rather unfinished and she don't like people to mess around in unfinished code. And the reason for this is also quite simple. If there is another similar thing out there first, people will ask her why her version is different and eventually inferior.

(3) - RP can't even handle most of IC2-Energy, so a energy-converter is somewhat useless... 100V is about less then you use at home, about 3/4 Solars would power your microwave-oven at home. Even between 4EU/t and 32EU/t which are the smallest IC2-Pakets are quite different. Solars in RP produce 2A at 100V. About 4 of them would create 4 EU/t or better 8 of them since they are cheaper. Producing 32 EU/t would be... well it would mean sending 128A through the blue-alloy-wires. Which will cause line-loss in the range of 35%, which just means you need more Amps to equal 32EU/t. Without her line-conditioner and other machines it would be hard to create useful setups for transformation (of course you could transform a lot of small packages... but then again why not just create the IC2-Gens). They other way around is more difficult since no machine can send 4EU/t and transforming larger packets blow your blue-alloy-wire (they don't "blow" actually but they are way above there capacity causing terrible loss).

(4) - If someone creates such a thing he just constructs some facts that are around there.

(5) - which might even caused her to approve it

(6) - so there is no proof that she might not have approved it before

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For the record, parts of your post and some of your points were VERY hard to decipher... What is 'well she wrote done the parts after this happened' supposed to mean? I'm assuming 'done' = 'down'?

(1) - Not if she chooses not to include energy hooks in the API. When she releases an API people are still restricted to using only her API and the hooks she provides in it. If she leaves out hooks needed for energy conversion and we're right back where we started. Not to mention that with everything currently on her plate we will most likely see an Official Mojang API before we see a RP2 API and we all know how long the wait for a Mojang API has been (still is).

(2) - How do you figure? She's already shown that this is about IC2 and BC energy. If it was about 'before she did it first' then the same rules would apply to the ThaumCraft converter that she has already said that she would probably allow due to "...not having made plans for that." If it was about 'unfinished code' then there would be no question about a TC conversion being allowed- It would be disallowed the same as a IC or BC conversion.

(3) - You're over-complicating the programming methinks... This is fictional, programmed energy and can be programmed to behave as needed and later can be tweaked as needed. If it's a question of packet-size then build a buffer into the converter so the programming can balance input and output. This is fictional energy and will behave the way it's programmed to behave. It's the programming that says 'If I take in 100EU then I will output ?5? BU'... or whatever factor it is set to follow. It's not like we are talking about real-world plug converters like you have to use when you go international.

(4) - Which is the same thing that Eloraam will be doing once she gets around to her own conversion plans. Constructing values that are around what she decides, which is fine for her converter, but needs to have no real bearing on someone elses' converter... As I've said before, Eloraam releases her converter and if she does it fairly then nobody will want (or need) to install an addon to achieve the functionality already included. Like I said before, including a config for the converter would alleviate a lot of the "balance" concerns.

(5) - She wouldn't have... Again... as she herself has stated (and I'm getting tired of quoting) "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that." She has her own plans, yours would have been denied as well due to her having her own plans in mind for 'that'.

(6) - And what, pray-tell, makes you think she might have approved it before?