What i'm hoping for is some "treeGrowthEvent" notice in the game. Should that exist i could randomly prevent trees from growing up, or replace some parts of the wood with unusable dead wood.
Wouldn't be easier/cooler to change Leaves blocks to Dead leaves blocks, which doesn't drop saplings?
@Blood
The visuals are secondary for me( but for and exloding reactor they are awesome:D). But i like how i works codewise. Basicly these are clouds of Entites which effect the enviroment like real "pollution"particles would do. My Idea would be that some machines in GT become Pollutionproviders which emit those clouds based on their workload. This would effect everything from Water to Air and Players etc....
Waterblocks get polluted -> machines wont get the right watertype
Airblocks get polluted -> Solars and other Machines loose efficiency
Crops die / grow slower
etc, etc...
@all
I think Pollution could be a chance to require a player to explore all possibilities in GT and dont stick those 30 or so boilers. There are many ways to reward the player for a pollution reduced / free gameplay! And those who don like it can turn it of via config,
I agree that there are many players that try to exploit certain mechanics, and should take the time to advance or work within the spirit of the game/mod. BUT again forcing someone to play a different way that we see as right is WRONG! making it harder to do such large scale setups make sense, but forcing it on them isn't in my opinion. personally I would do a TFC style no bone mealing of trees/plants myself, witch would stop most tree farming, other than the forestry and maybe a few others. and don't get me started on MFR, to me trying to play with it and GT is just bad form. so if someone is doing that, then there is really no helping them. also Axle's idea of pollution would defiantly help with stopping, or hindering this kind of game play with the air pollution caused from burning all that charcoal.
You're conflicting with yourself. Axle's idea is the same as mine. 100%.
I charted it out last night before I went to bed. They follow the exact same design path.
The differences? His is broader. Even in the target final phase, his is broader. He has ideas that cannot be implemented sanely because of either code limitations or design breakage. In every other respect, they're identical. They both have the exact same effect: nobody is forced to do anything, everyone is subtly nudged. You're saying I "force" people, but he only "stops and "hinders them". Screw anyone who thinks this is fair.
@BloodThe visuals are secondary for me( but for and exloding reactor they are awesome:D). But i like how i works codewise. Basicly these are clouds of Entites which effect the enviroment like real "pollution"particles would do. My Idea would be that some machines in GT become Pollutionproviders which emit those clouds based on their workload. This would effect everything from Water to Air and Players etc....
Waterblocks get polluted -> machines wont get the right watertype
Airblocks get polluted -> Solars and other Machines loose efficiency
Crops die / grow slower
Good ideas Briareros.
Funny aside: "Clouds of entities": this is nearly identical to something Blood wants to do, and it bears a disturbing resemblance to the acid-clouds that we've discussed adding. There's absolutely no reason this can't happen. In fact Blood will probably thump me if I don't, and then he'll just do it himself.
Someone (Axle?) mentioned the affects of air pollution on solar in particular already: I think this is a really good idea. Its less effective on servers because people tend to skip generators that only work during the day, but that's not a big deal.
Negatives:
I'm not convinced we can do polluted water. I alluded to this previously, but there are some odd repurcussions if we try to do a different "type" of water. I am a huge fan of the idea but the cost/benefit analysis throws up some massive red flags. Once the core mechanics are in place I plan to revisit this and see if there's a "can do" implementation that makes sense.
I'm just discussing ideas, if they're implementable, nice. If not, detail a bit why they can't. We might be able to get to something if we talk enough about it.
I don't want you or anyone to fully implement the dreams or whatever of everyone in one go. You're human and you can only do so much with your time on your hands.
By now I am far too used to how "slow" is GT and IC2 development are, I don't expect you to be any faster, not at all. Afaik you also have a job too, so even less time.
I'm still against simplistic pollution though, its better if people have a more flavorful experience, even if that takes more time to be developed.
"A bad game is always bad, a delayed one will eventually be good"
charcoal,Lava,oil,gas issue: Make their generators burn less efficiently as pollution rises (lower oxygen quality).
LHE doesn't suffer from this, big boilers and large turbines can accept fluid oxygen to boost efficiency back to max.
About solar and water pollution: solar produce less or refuse to work if pollution too high.
Water-based recipes refuse to work if pollution is too high, requiring distilled water (there are alternate recipes that use them, you can add something to block the regular water recipe I believe?)
Also blood. You're implementing oil deposits based on chunks, right?
What about geothermal spots that follow the same line? Those would be indefinetely extracted and would allow to have realistic geothermal green energy.
PS: ideas are just like opinions, you may not like them.
And guys, I don't want to touch this again, but if pollution is a way to encourage less machine spamming, the 2xEU/tier consumption (and the decreased generators efficiency) encourage us to spam;
Will we have to choose between pollution and efficiency or cleanness and inefficiency? Or all that will have an overhaul as well?
That said, as a regular (solo) player, the only machine I needed to spam was 16LV generators, before I built my large Turbine, because GT kinda forced me to do it. I love how the Large turbine is more efficient than those LV ones, really felt like an upgrade. Would be better if I was encouraged to change LV turbines to MV, and MV to HV before going to the Large Turbine (hint: change turbines ef. from (85,75,66) to (66, 75 and 85) ). I would feel more like I am progressing.
The only other thing that might force me to spam machines again, it is the fusion reactor, because Deuterium and tritium REQUIRES LV machines to process having a positive gain EU gain. And I hate this design.
Give me a efficient Multiblock machine to process those, and I will fell like I'm progressing (the processing array is still spam machine to me).
I'm just discussing ideas, if they're implementable, nice. If not, detail a bit why they can't.
I don't want you or anyone to fully implement the dreams or whatever of everyone in one go. You're human and you can only do so much with your time on your hands.
By now I am far too used to how "slow" is GT and IC2 development are, I don't expect you to be any faster, not at all. Afaik you also have a job too, so even less time.I'm still against simplistic pollution though, its better if people have a more flavorful experience, even if that takes more time to be developed.
What the hell do you mean by "simplistic" pollution here? It really smacks of "I don't get all my ideas in, so its not good enough." Nothing here you're talking about runs against the grain. Its all simplistic.
From a coding perspective: You HAVE to start with vanilla. We add flavours iteratively. In industrial jargon, its the development life cycle.
charcoal,Lava,oil,gas issue: Make their generators burn less efficiently as pollution rises (lower oxygen quality).
Ok, done? Its already in the design.
LHE doesn't suffer from this,
Essentially already in the design? People have been asking for LHE+Lava to have some penalty. Who knows what degree it will be, it already emits pahoehoe as a byproduct after all. So, if there's a penalty, it will be negligible.
big boilers and large turbines can accept fluid oxygen to boost efficiency back to max
We can possibly do the oxygen thing if someone explains why it makes tons of sense, and why it adds gameplay value. I don't mind it as a pollution workaround because acquiring the oxygen generates its own problems.
The idea itself also has a minor design conflict that would need to be resolved: the plasma turbine accepts various chemical liquids for reactions. Currently Oxygen is NOT one of those inputs. If we implemented this, either
a) we could never use oxygen in a reaction, or
b) we would have to exclude the Plasma variant from the "large turbines that need liquid oxygen" scheme.
or c) we'd have to design a new hatch, or a method to flag a hatch as the oxygen hatch
(b) would be the best option, but "exceptions to the rule" should always be a last resort in game design.
Water-based recipes refuse to work if pollution is too high, requiring distilled water (there are alternate recipes that use them, you can add something to block the regular water recipe I believe?)
THIS is what I mean by a "can do" implementation of dirty water. It works. If there's a pollution factor nearby, machines can't use normal water anymore. Keep it on the board.
NEGATIVES: It totally lacks Axle's flavour. Its only 10% in the fun direction whereas I'd prefer to take it further: where real, dirty water is actually a thing.
And guys, I don't want to touch this again, but if pollution is a way to encourage less machine spamming, the 2xEU/tier consumption (and the decreased generators efficiency) encourage us to spam;
Will we have to choose between pollution and efficiency or cleanness and inefficiency? Or all that will have an overhaul as well?That said, as a regular (solo) player, the only machine I needed to spam was 16LV generators, before I built my large Turbine, because GT kinda forced me to do it. I love how the Large turbine is more efficient than those LV ones, really felt like an upgrade. Would be better if I was encouraged to change LV turbines to MV, and MV to HV before going to the Large Turbine (hint: change turbines ef. from (85,75,66) to (66, 75 and 85) ). I would feel more like I am progressing.
The only other thing that might force me to spam machines again, it is the fusion reactor, because Deuterium and tritium REQUIRES LV machines to process having a positive gain EU gain. And I hate this design.
Give me a efficient Multiblock machine to process those, and I will fell like I'm progressing (the processing array is still spam machine to me).
100% agree in every respect.
+I am not attacking anyone especially you Pyure, I am just trying to have a sane discussion on the implementation of pollution. the main difference as I see it between your ideas and Axles is forced progression, and game play, rather than an obstetrical to over come that will encourage progression. I also never said that everything needed to be perfectly coded on roll out. no one has that I have seen, we are stating over all vision. If any of what we hope for is impossible to implement then fine, but that should make a reason for electrical machines to create pollution, rather than burners of carbon based fuels. I have stated many times here and in my videos that I can't code and those of you that do I admire for the ability. that being said making things for the whole community rather than just a small group should be, in my opinion, the best way to do things. unless making a separate addon, witch is then optional rather than hard coded in. one last thing, the only difference between an argument and a discussion is the inability to listen to other opinions.
Pyure: I'm getting exactly 60 B/s of SHS for 4.5 B/s HC. I don't remember your numbers but I was under the impression that "double" would be 60 B/s SHS for 6 B/s HC
+I am not attacking anyone especially you Pyure, I am just trying to have a sane discussion on the implementation of pollution. the main difference as I see it between your ideas and Axles is forced progression, and game play, rather than an obstetrical to over come that will encourage progression. I also never said that everything needed to be perfectly coded on roll out. no one has that I have seen, we are stating over all vision. If any of what we hope for is impossible to implement then fine, but that should make a reason for electrical machines to create pollution, rather than burners of carbon based fuels. I have stated many times here and in my videos that I can't code and those of you that do I admire for the ability. that being said making things for the whole community rather than just a small group should be, in my opinion, the best way to do things. unless making a separate addon, witch is then optional rather than hard coded in. one last thing, the only difference between an argument and a discussion is the inability to listen to other opinions.
Let me attack this from a different angle mate.
Can you explain in two sentences or less why you think the design as described above would force you to do anything, more so than the "stopping and hindering" you mentioned with respect to axle's grand scheme?
Pyure: I'm getting exactly 60 B/s of SHS for 4.5 B/s HC. I don't remember your numbers but I was under the impression that "double" would be 60 B/s SHS for 6 B/s HC
Latest version?
Any integrated circuits?
We can possibly do the oxygen thing if someone explains why it makes tons of sense, and why it adds gameplay value. I don't mind it as a pollution workaround because acquiring the oxygen generates its own problems.
The idea itself also has a minor design conflict that would need to be resolved: the plasma turbine accepts various chemical liquids for reactions. Currently Oxygen is NOT one of those inputs. If we implemented this, either
a) we could never use oxygen in a reaction, or
b) we would have to exclude the Plasma variant from the "large turbines that need liquid oxygen" scheme.
or c) we'd have to design a new hatch, or a method to flag a hatch as the oxygen hatch(b) would be the best option, but "exceptions to the rule" should always be a last resort in game design.
Plasma is fusion tier tech, they shouldn't be affected by pollution and don't make sense to use oxygen either because plasma energy generation doesn't look like to be a chemical reaction in the first place. You're not burning plasma with oxygen to produce heat or anything of the sort 
---something that is not relevant to pollution---
Isn't plasma just a very hot fluid, which should be the job of a large plasma heat exchanger? (because plasma is too hot and would burn down the regular LHE into ashes)
Fun how we'd go back to steam... or another fluid should be created that expands like steam when its hot, which I don't know.
---
Oxygen would be an optional fluid input, not necessary for the operation, but grants 100% efficiency if present, nullifying the pollution problem at the cost of another one, obtaining oxygen.
Pollution is what decreases the oxygen quality in the air (which is used to burn things).
You know that things burn because theres oxygen in the air and if you pump oxygen in, things burn faster, stronger and more efficient (no partial combustion is done [C + 1/2O = CO]).
This is done in some kinds of blast furnaces nowadays.
THIS is what I mean by a "can do" implementation of dirty water. It works. If there's a pollution factor nearby, machines can't use normal water anymore. Keep it on the board.
NEGATIVES: It totally lacks Axle's flavour. Its only 10% in the fun direction whereas I'd prefer to take it further: where real, dirty water is actually a thing.
Do both then. Dirty water on environment that poisons (or even kills if the water is too polluted) any entity that comes in contact with and blockage of "regular" water on recipes.
Environmental water is very dirty if compared to regular water, but both are polluted enough that they can't be used for recipes.
Dirty water can be purified into distilled water via filtering-distilling process (dirty water + Tcentrifuge = distilled water + sulfur and other crap).
"Regular" water can be distilled with already existing processes.
This way we get both flavour and functional dirty water.
in ability to reverse the pollution, and to stay at a particular age if you choose to.
This is again an idea, not my style but maybe someones, If someone only once to advance to the bronze age, that should be their choice, it will keep them from better materials, and easier recipes, that is the incentive to advance. that is all I am trying to say, I am not Axle's damn cheerleader. I don't think his idea needs to be implemented word for word, but it's the best option I have seen on the table, If there is something I missed in your posts where you changed your original idea of all machines creating pollution, then I apologize. That is the issue I have Issue with, I personally feel a basic burners create pollution, and need vented away from or built away from machines, is a good place to start. implementation can be done in stages,
I personally feel a basic burners create pollution, and need vented away from or built away from machines, is a good place to start. implementation can be done in stages,
To put this into both flavor and functional:
Burners emit pollution that gets into chunk (functional part) AND a smog fluid block that works like thaumcraft taint (semi fluid-like block that floats side-upwards and can accumulate), if you're within it, you suffocate (flavor part). Once that smog block reaches sky (y=256), it disappears and turns into more pollution to the functional part.
This smog block has to be vented by keeping a way for it to flow upwards, which is easy unless you're living deep underground.
Muffler hatches and anything that could possibly pollute the air would do this.
Palladium catalysts would reduce the amount of smog blocks created.
Said smog blocks can also be destroyed with a scrubber machine should you require a self sustained enclosed system (for space stations and deep underground bases).
Ohh, we got 100 pages on this thread. 
About the water: Replacing water blocks in world with dirty water is not possible from coding side. Only effecting interaction with water and the look. Water looks muddy in some biomes, this should be possible by pollution too.
But pumping dirty water would be impossible to balace due to mod interaction. So the only "safe" way to implement dirty water is the machine recipes and looks.
in ability to reverse the pollution, and to stay at a particular age if you choose to.
Ok good I can work with this.
One thing I have emphasized from the start is that the numbers have to be configurable by players/modpack makers. If you think only coal burners should emit pollution, do that. If lava should emit pollution, and twenty times as much, do that. If LV machines should, add them in. I don't really care which machines should generate pollution and to which degrees, I just need to provide the scaffolding and coinflip some defaults.
Ultimately we're targeting modpack designers here, and we want flexible tools in their hands so that the mechanics work for both hardcore and casual scenarios.
Another thing I mentioned is that there's no reason we can't have a pollution cleaner which is ALSO configurable. I personally wouldn't use it, but there's no reason it can't exist. I forget who raised this: if it was Axle, he already successfully convinced me it was a positive contribution.
It would be a SECOND phase addition because it is not, in and of itself, a CORE mechanic. But it WILL be there.
Plasma is fusion tier tech, they shouldn't be affected by pollution and don't make sense to use oxygen either because plasma energy generation doesn't look like to be a chemical reaction in the first place. You're not burning plasma with oxygen to produce heat or anything of the sort
Ok so you're saying I can just ignore the plasma turbine because it won't be affected by pollution in the first place. Makes sense.
Do both then. Dirty water on environment that poisons (or even kills if the water is too polluted) any entity that comes in contact with and blockage of "regular" water on recipes.
Ok but its the other half I can't think of a way to do. Can you imagine if your lake was full of dirty water blocks, and you tried to pick them up with a BC pump? An enderio pump? A simple bucket or bottle?
(the bottle would almost certainly just transform it into pure water btw)
I could probably make the GT pump work with it, but that is a nasty, nasty, horrible hack.
Ohh, we got 100 pages on this thread.
About the water: Replacing water blocks in world with dirty water is not possible from coding side. Only effecting interaction with water and the look. Water looks muddy in some biomes, this should be possible by pollution too.
But pumping dirty water would be impossible to balace due to mod interaction. So the only "safe" way to implement dirty water is the machine recipes and looks.
Can't make pollution spread like thaumcraft taint? Except that what sustains it is pollution, not magic. Polluted biomes instead of tainted land biome.
If pollution can spread to other chunks and affect machines why can't it replace blocks? I mean how TC spawns and replaces blocks just because you got a tainted biome.
Ok but its the other half I can't think of a way to do. Can you imagine if your lake was full of dirty water blocks, and you tried to pick them up with a BC pump? An enderio pump? A simple bucket or bottle?
(the bottle would almost certainly just transform it into pure water btw)I could probably make the GT pump work with it, but that is a nasty, nasty, horrible hack.
Dirty water would be a different water fluid block, not regular water blocks. That way any mod can pump it.
Dirty water bucket and bottles would have to be added by GT too to prevent those problems.
Regular water blocks would be replaced with dirty water blocks if pollution rises enough.
Dirty water would be a different water fluid block, not regular water blocks. That way any mod can pump it.
Dirty water bucket and bottles would have to be added by GT too to prevent those problems.
There's fuzzy areas in my knowledge here, but I don't think these things are as simple (plausible) as they seem on the surface.
Bottles are weird, and relying on other mods to whitelist liquids for their pumps is sketchy.
