So wrench failures. Let's talk about them.

    Quote from Kuudere

    I think you need to take a step back from how you've been thinking up to this point and ask yourself: How do (semi)immobile machines contribute to gameplay?

    It's not about gameplay.. it's about realism. In REAL industry, machines that are too large to practically be moved are assembled on-site, due to their volume and sheer complexity. The reactor itself may look like 7 blocks to you, but 3-by-3 meter^2 device that usually weights alot more in a plant's core than Minecraft is showing.


    Industrialcraft (thankfully) goes for realism instead of immersion. It gives examples of real-life aspects that occur in the world of industry, and we as players have to tackle them in our simulated world. Because of this, we are given the same limitations that we would encounter if we were to, say, pursue a career in electrical engineering or energy management (to a degree. I still think Pollution should be a troublesome aspect of the game, lol). In which case, the mod itself becomes a teaching tool for those of us who do have interests in these types of careers, or are already involved in said careers anyway. This way we can relate more with the fictional 16 bit world that is Minecraft in a more relative form of immersion from what we experience beyond just 'gameplay mechanics' for fictional machine blocks...


    Quite frankly, if this mod didn't have that sense of realism, I doubt so many people would play it.

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    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    Quote from MagusUnion

    Quite frankly, if this mod didn't have that sense of realism, I doubt so many people would play it.

    Minecraft is so far from realism it's long distance to call out, and IC takes it still further away from anything remotely approaching reality. Even if you were to pretend machines are room-sized monstrosities instead of the minifridges they actually are, there's absolutely no reason they couldn't be moved. They are routinely moved in reality, and even if they were immobile, what's the justification for breaking them?
    Are you seriously trying to tell me thousands of pounds of copper, tin, redstone, alloy, and coolant just vaporizing when a wrench is used... is realism?
    What planet are you on, bro? This is Earth.


    Besides the example of the Soviet tank factory moving, water desalination plants are just picked up wholesale and moved to disaster zones. Entire factories have been moved across oceans as heavy industry is outsourced to Asia.
    In fact, the very first factory in America... was moved from England, by Samuel Slater, in 1790.


    Good fucking thing they didn't have a wrench failure.

    Quote from Kuudere

    Are you seriously trying to tell me thousands of pounds of copper, tin, redstone, alloy, and coolant just vaporizing when a wrench is used... is realism?
    What planet are you on, bro? This is Earth.


    Thousands? Wow.


    And no it's not, its Minecraft. Quit comparing them.


    And my justification for wrench failure is this:
    There are many cases in the game where mass seems to be created/destroyed. Stairs for example, and also mass fabs. If matter can be created & destroyed in this world, who's to say that materials wouldn't just randomly disappear/appear?

    I really don't care if this mod (Industrialcraft) goes for realism or gameplay or whatever.
    The only think I know is that I'm playing games to have fun, not realism, i have enough realism in my life.


    I don't care if in real life the heavy machines of a factory never moves, or if when they do they get broken or they loose some components, I'm playing a damn game not a damn "second life reality", I'm playing to have fun not to have annoying mechanics and this is not about "if you don't like it, then don't use it".


    Quote

    "Originally, in the early IC1, players couldn't remove machines without "loosing" them at all."

    Come on, we aren't on IC1 anymore. You probably added the feature of a wrench because people demanded it.


    You want to have this mechanic of "fail" when you use a Wrench or an ElectricWrench on machines? Fine, but at least use your brains a little bit before destroying entire machines and hours of work because this is not precisely the definition of fun.
    Don't take me bad, I'm posting this precisely because I really like this mod and I want the best for it. :)

    Quote from Xaiier

    Thousands? Wow.


    And no it's not, its Minecraft. Quit comparing them.


    And my justification for wrench failure is this:
    There are many cases in the game where mass seems to be created/destroyed. Stairs for example, and also mass fabs. If matter can be created & destroyed in this world, who's to say that materials wouldn't just randomly disappear/appear?

    He's the one making the comparisons to giant machines you can't move, not me. I'm sane and can see they're the size of microwaves. Which leads us right back to... why can't we move them?


    I don't think you realize when you say "It's Minecraft, not Earth" you're making my point for me. Minecraft is not realistic in any way unless you live on a really fucked up planet.


    Which brings me to your final point, and mine: Stuff being created is fun. Stuff being destroyed is not*. We play Minecraft for fun.


    HAYO.


    *unless it is someone else's stuff.

    Quote from Kuudere


    He's the one making the comparisons to giant machines you can't move, not me. I'm sane...

    No, you're just being damn childish about the subject. You broke shit and have to spend more resources on it... Oh damn well then...


    If it's that big of an issue, just TMI it... Stuff breaks, and doesn't last forever...


    Deal with it... ;)

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    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    The simplest and most appropriate solution to this by the developer would be to add a simple configuration variable to set break % for eachblock. Let the players/server owners decide what that chance should be along with provided default-values.


    No need to debate back and forth as to whether or not it should happen. The devs vision is to let it happen. Some users/server owners don't want it to happen.


    Meet in the middle.


    Problem? Solved.

    Quote from Gauban

    Yes in real factories you don't need to move the machines, but in real factory you don't have updates, patches, fixes etc which would force you to rebuild or change parts of your factory.
    Anyway I also think that, this should be a parameter option in the config file.

    yes that is true but in real life there is always new technolgy comeing out. so most compaines who want to be most efficient install and use new machinery in their factories and what do you think happens to all their old stuff......... its thrown away into a junk yard or recycled.

    still rocking the GMA 950 card :D overclocked to the point of smoking. :huh: hahahahaha now i got my 525m now that thing does work 8) :P :D

    This.

    Please, correct my English.


    QFT


    Quote from pablovansnogger

    yes that is true but in real life there is always new technolgy comeing out. so most compaines who want to be most efficient install and use new machinery in their factories and what do you think happens to all their old stuff......... its thrown away into a junk yard or recycled.


    Ah yes, makes me thinkg about making the broken machines dropping broken machine parts, like a damaged circuit, cracked energy crystals, etc, and you stick the crap in a recycler, and it shoots out the resources (most of them) into a nearby chest. Hows that for recycling? Also, explosions, like say from a creeper, would cause the same pile of broken crap to drop, so you could probably get all but a few redstone, cables, maybe rarely a diamond, back.

    While I partly agree... I doubt that's a feature Alba wishes to institute... And I can't say I blame him for not doing so...

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    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    Quote from Ranakastrasz


    QFT



    Ah yes, makes me thinkg about making the broken machines dropping broken machine parts, like a damaged circuit, cracked energy crystals, etc, and you stick the crap in a recycler, and it shoots out the resources (most of them) into a nearby chest. Hows that for recycling? Also, explosions, like say from a creeper, would cause the same pile of broken crap to drop, so you could probably get all but a few redstone, cables, maybe rarely a diamond, back.

    ya but in real life it is mostly eassier and cheaper to buy new things than to repiar broken things

    still rocking the GMA 950 card :D overclocked to the point of smoking. :huh: hahahahaha now i got my 525m now that thing does work 8) :P :D

    Quote from MagusUnion

    While I partly agree... I doubt that's a feature Alba wishes to institute... And I can't say I blame him for not doing so...

    Regardless of the desire to implement a feature, his aim should be to please the users to some degree.


    His vision stays alive and his Mod becomes more modular. Rather than recompiling to adjust break values, simply provide a patched .. let's call it "wrench.ini".


    The code already exists to deal with the break values, all that would require is a property/json/yaml reader <trivial> and the assignment of said values to variables. The triviality of doing it alone makes it a worthy venture and, as said, pleases everyone involved in the discussion.


    This is only bonus points for Alba's personal karma ;p

    Quote from GoMinecraft

    Regardless of the desire to implement a feature, his aim should be to please the users to some degree.


    Ummm... no... there is no 'should' in this for mod development.. his direction is solely decided by what HE wants. And if he doesn't want it, deal with it (or make an add-on)...

    Quote from GoMinecraft


    His vision stays alive and his Mod becomes more modular. Rather than recompiling to adjust break values, simply provide a patched .. let's call it "wrench.ini".


    The code already exists to deal with the break values, all that would require is a property/json/yaml reader and the assignment of said values to variables. The triviality of doing it alone makes it a worthy venture and, as said, pleases everyone involved in the discussion.


    This is only bonus points for Alba's personal karma ;p

    Karma has nothing to do with it.. It's a matter of IF he wants it or not. Regardless of how easy it would be to code, there really is not a good reason to have the option to ignore mechanics you don't like all the time. Which goes back to the argument being childish to begin with...


    And if this is goons trying to get this change to come about, that's even more reason to disallow this option...

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    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    • Official Post
    Quote from MagusUnion


    And if this is goons trying to get this change to come about, that's even more reason to disallow this option...

    This statement right here detracts from the community. I would kindly ask that everyone refrains from this type of behavior.


    As for the topic of this thread:


    1. It has been stated (numerous times even), that Al will not change the "Failed deconstruction proc" when disassembling machines with the Wrench. It has been in the mod for a long time (When the wrench was first introduced in IC1), and there weren't (m)any complaints then.


    2. There is already an add-on, for those that don't actually read that section, that gives the wrenches a 100% drop rate.


    Now, for the two reasons stated above (and the fact that this doesn't need to turn into another flame war), I'm closing this topic from further discussion.



    edit by Alb:
    Allmighty Dragonlord Modderator approves the closure of this thread.
    In case "closure" isn't a valid term, Allmighty Dragonlor Modderator approves of using "closure" as a valid term within the IC Forum.