Solar power, a complaint...

    Quote from FnordMan

    ... it's why I don't like using RP2 timers, the constant tick tick noise drives me batty.


    The RP2 config has an option to turn those sounds off.


    Quote from Rick

    Its pretty bad that even when you use copper cables to go from the top of the world to the bottom windgens still make more eu/tick than solars make. Should be enough proof that solars are underpowered.


    Windgens take more space you dimwit. They also take more time to build. Stop making single line arguments that have no base in reality as "proof". (That is MineCraft reality, not IRL)

    Quote from Cadde

    The RP2 config has an option to turn those sounds off.


    Oh yeah, you can bet I looked for that the first time I built a timer! Tik.Tik.TIK.TIKOMGMAKETHETORTURE END!
    Much better now that they run quietly.

    Quote from Rick

    Solars are way more expensive than windgens cadde....It takes longer to make solars than to make windgens.


    They are not THAT much more expensive... And you still have to feed wire down to sea level which does cost extra resources for Windgen unless you place them at sea level.
    No matter how you twist and turn it though, windgen takes more space than solars and takes longer to build. The cost difference between the two is:


    Solar / Wind


    10 iron / 12 iron
    12 rubber / 0 rubber
    3 glass / 0 glass
    3 coal / 0 coal
    2 redstone / 0 redstone.
    6 copper / 0 copper


    I consider rubber to be infinite and so easy to get that you might as well skip rubber alltogether... But if you wanna be nit picky about it... Insulating cables for sky limit wind farms will consume more rubber than your solar array so...
    I consider glass to be so abundant (cobble -> sand -> glass) that it is pretty much irrelevant.
    So after all is said and done. The only thing more expensive in solar panels over wind farms is the 3 coal, 4 redstone and 6 copper you need... Wind requires 2 more iron so lets call the copper cost even.
    Since you require a lot of other building materials to make a wind farm (platforms to stand on, a long cable going to ground level etc) and it takes time to build stuff high up in the air i would much rather build a large solar array than a large wind farm.


    However, i don't want to build either of them. It's the whole "once set up they never need to be cared for again" thing. It doesn't take any skill to set them up and there are better performing generators out there, it's too cheap IMHO.


    Now, will you stop making irrelevant claims? Time IS money. The extra time i would have to spend on building a wind farm instead of a solar farm is time i could have spent finding resources. In the extra time i spend building a wind farm over solar i could have found a whole bunch of ores.

    In order to match 1 windgen output you need several solars. Even with the worst cables they make more than solars do. Its not that hard to make a LV and MV transformer and some hv cables which will boost the output by alot. But like i said even with copper cables they make more than solars do no point in making solars except for the looks. Solars make 0.5 eu/tick average if there is no weather like rain. With the rain/thunderstorms i think it drops to like 0.3-0.4 maybe even less.


    Also windgens always produce a good amount of eu it only varies a bit. You can count on them more than solars which produce nothing in the night and with rain/thunderstorm.



    I think it would be alot better if solars get a big buff when they are in the desert (like 2x output). It would make them more situational while boosting their usefullness.

    The fact that people are arguing SO vehemently both FOR and AGAINST the new Solars is evidence that they are now TOTALLY BALANCED! YAY!


    P.S. rougs ar toltily OP an i haz prof!!1 STELTS! +9000 enternetz1

    Quote from Corbald

    The fact that people are arguing SO vehemently both FOR and AGAINST the new Solars is evidence that they are now TOTALLY BALANCED! YAY!


    P.S. rougs ar toltily OP an i haz prof!!1 STELTS! +9000 enternetz1


    Except one side argues with detailed facts while the other claims to have "proof" based on misconceptions about them.


    EDIT: Just for the heck of it... If i made a poll with the question "do you think i am gay?", do you think the poll will show 50/50% or will it be in favor of me being gay because this is the internets after all?
    You see, for every reasonable man... There are over nine thousand retards.


    Wind gens generate on average slightly over 2.5 EU/t at height 127 and 2 cables in it's "obstruction zone".
    They increase their power by 50% during a thunder storm and by 20% during rain. (More wind)
    They require an empty space around them that covers a 9x9x7 area. As such, you want to make a platform in the sky that covers a 9x9 area so you can catch any broken cables etc as you build your wind farm.
    I assume people want to use glass (to let sunlight through) and they need at least 81 glass blocks to make that 9x9 platform. That is a lot of resources right there per wind gen. Given, the next win gen (if you make more) will only require an additional 5x5 blocks. (25 blocks)


    If you place 6 solar panels on the ground you get 3 EU/t average on a day/night cycle. You just exceeded wind power generation using 7.4% of the space required. And even though solar panels are more expensive they are more predictable than wind power.
    Wind power generation can fluctuate (GLOBALLY) between 0.002666 EU/t and 7.75 EU/t (That is a theoretical max, thunderstorm and all! Very unlikely) and can stay at very low EU/t levels for OMGWTFIHATEWINDPOWER long time.
    Solar panels on the other hand will generate 0.5 EU/t on average until it rains or thunders. You can sleep away rain (during night time) and thunderstorms. You cannot sleep away bad wind conditions.
    You can sleep away night time PERIOD and thus increase your net EU/t gain with solar power. No matter how much you sleep, your wind power will either suck or be great. You never know what power levels you will get with them...


    You can argue all you want but there is a reason why people STILL use solar power exclusively. Even though they have been nerfed some.

    There is endless space in minecraft why you pay like 6x cost to use up less space? Also your calculations are a bit off. 7.4% is only applies when you compare 6 solar gen to 1 windgen in space which isnt a very realistic situation. If you compare 4 windgens those solars will still have a big space advantage but alot smaller than in your post.


    Also since when sand was hard to get? You can get it from:
    -The millions of sand that spawn in your world
    -Cobblestone generators (macerator..)
    Dont tell me its hard to smelt sand to glass.


    Windgens always produce a decent amount of eu while solars stop making them at night/rain/thunderstorm. Ye you can sleep IF you are next to your bed but that requires you constantly checking the weather and time. It wont work when you are inside some cave.

    Quote from Rick

    There is endless space in minecraft why you pay like 6x cost to use up less space? Also your calculations are a bit off. 7.4% is only applies when you compare 6 solar gen to 1 windgen in space which isnt a very realistic situation. If you compare 4 windgens those solars will still have a big space advantage but alot smaller than in your post.


    Also since when sand was hard to get? You can get it from:
    -The millions of sand that spawn in your world
    -Cobblestone generators (macerator..)
    Dont tell me its hard to smelt sand to glass.


    Windgens always produce a decent amount of eu while solars stop making them at night/rain/thunderstorm. Ye you can sleep IF you are next to your bed but that requires you constantly checking the weather and time. It wont work when you are inside some cave.

    ... You are just grasping at straws now. Constantly making things up to suit your side of the story. You keep forgetting the negative sides of your "utopia"... But for the last time i will make another valid counter argument.


    Chunks... Placing 16x16 solar panels in one chunk gives you 128 effective EU/t. To reach that number (on average) with wind gens you need 52 of them. The square root of 52 rounded down to the closest whole integer is 7, so you need 7*5+5 = 40x40 to make a wind gen farm of 49 generators. Then you need an extra 5 tiles on either side to add the last 3 generators. So that makes it 45x40 tiles. That covers 9 chunks in total instead of just one. Thus you have to keep those 9 chunks loaded to gain full generation from your wind farm. This is bad for servers and bad for you in SSP since chunks will unload if you go a certain distance from them. Forcing you to stay closer to your base than you otherwise would have to.


    Sure, you can get 81 blocks of cobble, macerate them and burn them to glass. That operation costs you 75,978 EU's to do (That is 19 charcoal) and using a single macerator and a single electro furnace this operation takes 21 minutes to complete. If you have 2 macerators and one furnace this time is roughly cut in half, it's still a lot of time spent.
    Right, so now you don't just need 9x9 blocks of glass... To match the 16x16 solar array you would have a platform that is 40x45 tiles. That's 1,800 cobble to macerate and burn to glass... That's 1,688,400 EU's required to do that. The equivalent of 422 charcoal. That takes 3.90625 HOURS to complete using two macerators and one furnace. Even if you have 8 macerators and 4 furnaces you still take up to an hour of constant crushing and burning to make that much glass.


    So now you will argue that "But who needs to use glass, why not just use wooden planks or the actual cobblestone without processing it?"
    Because it's...

    • Fugly
    • Blocks daylight, causes mobs to spawn on the surface, forces you to place torches... Really messes up what otherwise was an evenly sunlit landscape. (do you know just how many spawn on hard difficulty?)
    • Just doesn't make sense to have a solid structure floating like that. (glass doesn't look as heavy)


    And then you might argue thusly: "Why use glass blocks? Use glass panels instead!"
    Have you ever placed 1,800 glass panels up in the sky?



    Right, so glass blocks it is because they are the only blocks that actually make any sense...
    -"But... but... Scaffolds!?!?!?!"


    Yeeees, i am aware of scaffolds... You would have to make 400+ pillars from ground level to the sky to support scaffolds across a 40x45 tile area.


    -"But... WorldEdit?"
    Go ahead, CHEAT all YOU want.


    Ok, so i will hold with those future possible "reasons" you may have that are completely irrelevant and impractical...
    Now, lets consider the build time... At ground level (that is, you have something to stand/walk on already) you can place stuff at a rate of around 4 blocks per second. 256 solar panels thus takes ~64 seconds to place.
    To build a platform in the sky, you have to sneak to avoid constantly falling off or grow some chronic bone disorder. At best you can achieve one block placed per second. That makes it 1,800 seconds (30 minutes) of tediously placing blocks to make your platform alone.
    If you are going to cycle between placing your platform and going down to your factory to collect more glass then consider the time it takes to travel UP and DOWN several times as well. If you are using a jetpack an/or quantum boots then you need to take into account the resources spent on keeping them fueled as well.


    -"Buuuuut, don't build a platform then. Just build the windgens and don't drop anything..."
    Fine, you crawl around at height level 127 on narrow walkways and not misplace a single thing. Having to break it which inevitably leads to you dropping it having to go all the way to ground level to retrieve it before it despawns.
    As well as measure distance between each windgen to get the spacing right.
    Not to mention you accidentally falling off the walkways because holding shift for so long made your pinkie finger go numb.


    Now we get to the next "fun" part. Where are you going to find 1,800 cobble to begin with... You say it's abundant, i beg to differ!
    1,800 cobble is 28.125 stacks. That is a little over half a double chest. Consider the time it takes to collect 1,800 cobble for this purpose alone. Then consider all the other things you can use cobble for, namely making smoothstone into bricks. As well as glass for other applications. Not to mention using it as filler material. Or running it through recyclers to get scrap for your scrap hungry matter generators.
    Cobble might not be worth much per block but when you have a chest full of cobble it adds up to being worth quite a lot!
    Especially since i build most my houses exclusively out of bricks (since they are the cheapest resource to build with that doesn't look like sh!t)


    -"Just use Buildcraft, place a filler with a clear recipe or use a quarry. You now have TOO MUCH cobble for anything..."
    There are two things wrong with that though... But i will let you suggest the next thing as well since i foresee one of the answers covering the next suggestion too.
    -"Use Equivalent Exchange to make glass from whatever stupid conversion EE has...?"

    • We are talking about IC2 balance here. Not IC2+FiftyEleven other different mods!
    • Fillers and Quarries take OMGWTF amounts of power/resources to operate for extended periods of time.


    And finally, Equivalent Exchange? Are you MAD? I might as well use TMI...


    ...................


    Really, stop coming up with odd reasons as to why solar panels are underpowered because if you compare them to regular generators of all kinds you see that solar panels are by far more desirable than any of them. Wind power on the other hand isn't as desirable because wind power is really messy to set up and only someone with lots of spare time and motivation would set one up.
    ...
    Oh wait, i feel another irrelevant statement coming up...
    -"Just build your wind generators at sea level! They still outperform solar panels!"


    Yes, technically they do outperform solar panels at sea level... Here comes the list of things that makes them less desirable than solar panels on the ground...

    • They take up space, two times as much to match the output of solar panels using twice as many wind gens, space is important. The more space you consume on ground level the further you have to walk between your buildings etc.
    • They STILL are unreliable power sources. They can generate 0 EU/t or they can generate 2.5 EU tick at sea level. (And they can get stuck on 0 EU/t for a long time since they only change their production once every 6.4 seconds)
    • You want a relatively flat area (that covers not just 40x45 but 55x60 since you now need that area to set up 104 wind gens at sea level) and making a 55x60 tile large flat area where, say, half the blocks need to be cleared in the area. (That's 1650 blocks to clear, possibly more)
    • Did i mention chunks? I think i did!


    Ok, i know you are going to find some small little loop hole in this one as well... At least i am not calling you an idiot and instead am making an effort to (really) show you how wrong you are.
    But in the end, you are not the brightest person i have seen posting on a forum. As a matter of fact, you are among the top most ignorant and self proclaimed posters i have seen. (And that is saying a lot!)
    I feel i won't have the energy to deal with you anymore after this though, maybe you should just save your breath and stop posting garbage like "solars have been nerfed, that is proof that they are underpowered" or something silly along those lines.
    Just stay out of it, period.

    So you need 76 more solar panels that pretty much makes up the cost i guess BY FAR...


    This are the resources you need for 128 solars
    384 coal
    384 glass
    768 redstone
    1280 iron
    832 copper
    512 tin
    1024 cobblestone


    This are the resources you need for 52 windgens:
    The ~1800 glass for the platform
    624 iron
    416 cobblestone
    208 tin
    104 redstone
    26 copper


    Windgens are cheaper in every way except the glass. Now iam sure 99% of the ppl here rather use 1800 glass than to use ~600 more iron, ~750 more copper, ~300 more tin and 384 more coal.


    Oblivously the windgens are cheaper by far. Solars also make less than 0.5 eu/tick average so in reality it would turn out even worse for the solars. Solars need a buff point. A situational one like eu output bonus in desert would be very nice for it. There is no point to continue this discussion further. They are horribly underpowered. Lets start thinking about how to fix them ok?


    Next time you call me dumb check your own dumb posts pls

    You're both forgetting that it's possible to build windmills at levels other than 127 (it's just not quite as effective). It's also rare for me to keep non-nuke power generators within a single chunk.

    Quote from Rick

    They are horribly underpowered.


    Not at all, they are still OP as they have always been. And you simply ignore the relevant parts and substitute your own reality. Maybe you should actually build a wind farm that large and then build a solar farm that matches output. You tell me which one was easier and faster to build.


    Quote from Rick

    Lets start thinking about how to fix them ok?


    Yes, lets talk about how to fix them...


    For starters, make them as complicated to build as the other free energy alternatives. Or make them require some kind of maintenance like the other fossil generators.
    Then, once more, increase the EU/t and total EU gain of the fossil fuel generators. And make reactors especially powerful. (And add some extra complexity while we are at it)


    Rework the energy tiers, LV now is 128 EU/t, MV now is 512 EU/t, HV now is 2048 EU/t, EV now is 16535! (Are we now passing some internal limitation? I know Shorts only allow 16535. If that is the case then only increase it to 4096.)
    Introduce a new energy tier at and call that "Appliance Voltage" (AV) at 32 EU/t.
    Introduce another new energy tier and call that "Tiny Voltage" (TV) at 8 EU/t.


    Now, since nearly all generators now produce HUGE amounts of energy, make machines draw more energy as well. And further more, don't allow heavy machinery to run off too low voltages.
    Actually, introduce new machines... To name a few:

    • Mixer - A hardened mixer that allows you to put ore chunks (read below on ore chunks) in it to get one dust out of an ore chunk. Runs off AV.
    • Microwave oven - Allows you to cook stuff faster than a furnace, replaces the Iron Furnace. Also is the first kind of furnace that allows you to make rubber. Rubber can only be produced from resin and you need 2 resin to make one rubber. (Obviously the recipe cannot include rubber for this one. Make a wool+resin+copper wire recipe to make appliance cable to be used with all appliances. Can also be used to wire up appliances but the insulation degrades over time and is stripped off if used this way)
    • Canning machine (replacing the current canning machine, which is now called a "multi purpose canner") - This can be used to can foods. Runs off AV.



    • Rock tumbler - A modified washing machine that does what the macerator does, only slower. Runs off LV
    • Electro furnace (The very same) - running off LV.
    • Compressor (taking the name of the current compressor, which now would be called Industrial Compressor) - A small scale compressing machine that is slower than the industrial compressor. Also can't compress alloys, carbon plates or diamonds. Runs off LV.
    • Boiler - Simply a water heater that is used to make rubber out of rubber tree logs and make rubber out of resin. Has an internal storage that needs to be filled before you get your rubber. 2 logs for one rubber and 1 resin for one rubber. Also runs off LV.


    Additionally...

    • Make luminators operate off TV.
    • Require power tools to be charged using LV (128 EU/t)
    • Don't allow an Appliance Voltage machine to run on Tiny Voltage. Likewise, don't allow a LV machine run on any lesser voltage.


    As for energy consumption:


    All machines should draw roughly 1/10th to 1/5th of their rated power supply. So for instance, a mixer will draw 2 EU/t. A microwave oven will draw 4 EU/t. A canning machine will draw 1 EU/t.
    An electro furnace would draw 24 EU/t and a rock tumbler would draw 16 EU/t.


    Now, for the part of solar panels in all this. The idea here is, if you want to run your Electro furnace and your rock tumbler (40 EU/t) using solar power directly from solar panels (no in between storage) you would need to have at least 8 panels. Solar panels are Tiny Voltage generators, you have to transform that voltage up to LV using a TV->LV transformer. (which allows for conversion the other way as well OFC)
    But unlike now, conversion is not free. Here is an example conversion table:



    Also note that the conversion loss isn't just wasted EU's. 10% of the numbers above is energy lost to heat. (That is for example, 10% of EV->MV conversion is lost to heat, 12.8 EU)
    That 10% value is rounded UP to the nearest integer (Thus making TV->AV conversion ALWAYS waste 1 EU and EV->MV conversion waste 13 EU)
    So what are the numbers good for then? They show how much of the power can't make it through the transformer. So in the case of MV to LV transformation, 16 eu is blocked, 2 EU is lost of those 16, the remaining 14 just doesn't make it through and as such is never spent at the source generator/storage. 512 - 16 is 496 EU that makes it through. (This is part of the balancing)


    Thus, going by those numbers. A solar panel should create 7 EU to allow for the conversion cost and the required power. However, solar panels produce 8 EU/t to allow for some distance losses...
    Which brings us to the next change. Change distance related losses to these values:



    Well, enough ideas for this. Where i am getting with this for solar panels is that making solar power parks "would" be possible to power your macerators, industrial compressors etc. You are FORCED to lose some EU's in the conversion process by doing so.
    Solar panels work best (read, most efficient) for smaller applications such as home appliances (AV and LV) and street lighting etc. But beyond that you have to go "industrial" to make solar panels power your factories.


    Quote from Rick

    Next time you call me dumb check your own dumb posts pls


    Never called you dumb, you are placing words into my mouth. (Though i didn't call you a genius either)
    And my posts aren't dumb. You are just saying that because you lack the ability to look up facts and instead use your poor understanding of things to claim something to be true when it is in fact false.
    Learn to understand simple balancing mechanics. And stick to the practical world, not your "lalalala" world.

    Quote from MJEvans

    You're both forgetting that it's possible to build windmills at levels other than 127 (it's just not quite as effective). It's also rare for me to keep non-nuke power generators within a single chunk.



    Quote

    ...
    Oh wait, i feel another irrelevant statement coming up...
    -"Just build your wind generators at sea level! They still outperform solar panels!"


    Yes, technically they do outperform solar panels at sea level... Here comes the list of things that makes them less desirable than solar panels on the ground...

    • They take up space, two times as much to match the output of solar panels using twice as many wind gens, space is important. The more space you consume on ground level the further you have to walk between your buildings etc.
    • They STILL are unreliable power sources. They can generate 0 EU/t or they can generate 2.5 EU tick at sea level. (And they can get stuck on 0 EU/t for a long time since they only change their production once every 6.4 seconds)
    • You want a relatively flat area (that covers not just 40x45 but 55x60 since you now need that area to set up 104 wind gens at sea level) and making a 55x60 tile large flat area where, say, half the blocks need to be cleared in the area. (That's 1650 blocks to clear, possibly more)
    • Did i mention chunks? I think i did!


    Maybe you should have read my post before you make accusations that are utterly false?

    Quote from Cadde

    "But who needs to use glass, why not just use wooden planks or the actual cobblestone without processing it?"
    Because it's...
    Fugly - Blocks daylight, causes mobs to spawn on the surface, forces you to place torches... Really messes up what otherwise was an evenly sunlit landscape. (do you know just how many spawn on hard difficulty?)[*]Just doesn't make sense to have a solid structure floating like that. (glass doesn't look as heavy).


    I have to agree on this point - those who have seen the picture of my wind farm will notice that most of the surface is glass, for just those reasons. Basically, the only parts where I used wooden planks are the areas where the mills are placed and the wiring runs.



    Additionally, I added a couple of glowstone blocks in certain spots. Now, it's actually nice to look at, even from the ground.

    Seems cadde missed the point of the resource costs. So here it is agan specialy for you

    Quote from Rick

    *SNIP*

    Dude, don't repost... Your whole point is invalid for starters and re-posting is the same as spamming.


    Plus, i have already agreed with you on Solar being more expensive in all resources except iron and glass blocks. That is beside the point though. The TIME it takes to make a wind farm is out of proportion in comparison to a solar plant.
    That time could be spent finding several diamonds instead.


    EDIT:


    Ok, here is what we can do. We can have a little competition. I set up a server with just IC2 installed.
    We agree on a time when we can do the competition.


    The goals:


    * First to produce an effective average EU production of 128 wins, I will be using solars and you will be using wind.


    The rules:


    * The map is divided into 2, you (rick) are allowed to use all map co-ordinates that are above 0 on the X and Z axis, the Y axis is obviously free for both of us. I will be using all map co-ordinates below 0, negatives.
    * If one of us have to take a break then the server is shut down. A simple message like "I need a break for X hours" means we BOTH drop our tools and i immediately close the server.
    * No other mods are allowed but IC2... (NO OTHER MODS, that's FINAL)
    * No cheating, no map editors, no external map readers etc etc. (And if you cheat Rick, the shame is on you for failing to stay fair, I know i am right about this I don't have to cheat to win the special olympics, I would do this to help YOU understand that YOU are not correct)
    * No obstructing the other persons work... That is, no passing into the other persons zone. No pushing a flock of cheep into the other persons zone or likewise.
    * You are allowed to use whatever other machines you want. Anything you can make in MC and IC2 is allowed


    The map setup:


    * Each person starts with a SINGLE diamond pickaxe, a SINGLE diamond axe and a SINGLE diamond shovel.
    * Each person also starts with 10 personal safes (or 20 chests if personal safe isn't available), a Generator, a macerator, a stack of logs and 4 stacks of glowstone. Nothing more, the rest has to be manually harvested and crafted. (The reason for the starting resources is to even out the extreme starting point "grind" and the fact that starting out can fluctuate wildly in time taken to get set up intially. Glowstone is added because going to the nether is very much beside the point of this test.
    * The map has a trench dug from sky to bedrock that is 16 blocks wide to prevent any accidental digging across borders.


    So, what do you say Rick? Are you ready to take on the challenge? Shall i set it up?


    EDIT: Obviously i would record my whole session using fraps. So you can see exactly what i did and if i cheated in any way.

    I would be highly interested in seeing the result of this.


    However I do have one additional suggestion. Select (most of) the chunk and duplicate it across (rotating it) in to the other chunk. This way trees and mineral resources are asurred to be even.


    Also post the seed of the starting area.


    I can produce an official map as described above after work tonight if you're interested. This way an impartial third party will have done the work. I'm also debating offering up a semi-laggy server to host it on.