[Addon v1.112+] Liquid UU-Matter v0.7.12b (now officially retired)

    Quote from narc

    I'd appreciate if you could turn on debug.override in LiquidUU.cfg and get me the stack trace that will be printed when the Forestry integration fails to load. Debug mode is a little chatty, so you might want to turn it off afterwards, but if you get me that stack trace I can maybe do better than guessing. Maybe.

    Sure thing:
    http://pastebin.com/smSFgwUV


    Something I noticed: This error isn't happening in single player play. In single player mode the squeezer continues to operate just fine. This is the error i'm getting on the server when it launches with identical mod lists and configurations.


    I also see an odd error about extrabees being unable to see the forestry configuration due to some java reflection error. I think that error was in the other server log I posted as well. Related?

    Okay, that stack trace got me looking in exactly the right place: there's no Item.getCreativeTab() on the server... though there is a setCreativeTab. I... just don't even. Easily fixed, thankfully, now that I know what the problem is.


    Go ahead and grab v0.7.12b from the OP or the download page -- my tests suggest it should work properly.


    As for the Extra Bees thing, that's a purely custom error message -- I'd have to look at the mod's source to tell you what it was trying to do and not managing. It might be related, but only in as much as it might also be trying to do something client-side on the server-side (but considering what the error says it was trying to do, it seems unlikely).

    Warning, there is an item loss bug in the current version of LiquidUU (and possibly in earlier ones, as well) -- it shows up if you use the hotbar keyboard shortcuts to try to feed the accelerator's UUM slot. The details of the bug are available on github.


    For now, I strongly recommend that you do not touch the number keys while your mouse is pointing at the accelerator's UUM slot -- use Shift-click or pipes to put UUM into the accelerator or take stuff out of it instead.

    Foreword: I hope this hasn't been suggested before, accepting that it likely has, and also hoping that it hasn't been turned down outright on principle, accepting that it likely has been turned down due to unbalanced suggestions of usage. Without further adieu, here is my (hopefully) well thought out suggestion for a (hopefully) well balanced device.


    Suggestion/idea: Liquid UU Duplication Device MK IIIXX


    The idea of making something from nothing is a wonderful idea. And horrible for profits if it worked. But making more of something from something which is expensive, and obviously hard to get, but none the less obtainable, is a paradise for the market. One could make endless supplies of oil for the oil companies to shove down consumers throats while making a tidy profit. But such a idea is not easy to adapt to other things if all one can make is oil. You can make things from oil, but one can also make things from Iron, or Emeralds, or even Iridium. But how can one claim their stake in this field? With our brand new Liquid Universal Usage Matter Catalyzed Resource Duplication Device Mark Seventeen. But it's not all easy. It takes two of your desired resource to affix the binary state of the Liquid UUM into this non-standard form, and it takes 30 liters of this fluid to produce even one extra sample of your desired resource. But the ability to make anything from something you already have, is very tempting, and we have made this dream possible.
    How you ask? We are not ready to release the blueprints for the DIY crowd, but depending on how our pitch goes to the Bigwigs, you may be able to set one up in your garage sometime soon. If not, I'm sure we will find a good use for this technology somewhere.

    Apprentice Redstoner, Professional Slacker

    So, duplication of any item using liquid UU? Yes, I very much approve of the idea! The previous suggestion along the same lines would have limited it to things that can be made normally with UUM (thus making it very easy to give them a reasonable cost), but we already have the solid UUM to do this with, and it didn't really have a hook -- I have it in my issue tracker as "needs refinement".


    Now, duplicating literally anything seems to me even trickier to balance -- what should be the cost of duplicating Nether Stars, for instance (the highest-rarity thing I can think of)? Having to get two of them to begin with is an excellent start, and might be enough all by itself, but having a unique duplication cost seems to me like it'll be either greatly over-powered or severely under-powered.


    There's a kind of middle road I can think of, which is to try to derive the cost of an item by what it's made of, if we can trace that as far back as things that are already made of UUM -- and this is probably the best method for determining costs -- but that's going to be a lot of work and is contingent on being able to follow things through non-vanilla crafting systems (e.g. assembly table, carpenter, magma crucible). That includes tracing liquids used in crafting, where appropriate. Sisyphean work, if you ask me.


    The simplest thing I can think of, which is not ideal, but is at least interesting, would be to have a base duplication cost, and a way to override it for specific items (perhaps by passing a multiplier). I can then publish some API for the override (most likely a simple IMC event) and have anyone who wants poke at that. Theoretically, I can also make a configuration section or file where players could define an item and its price override, but that has its own set of problems, mostly of presentation.


    Thoughts?

    That could work as well. I went with 30 units of liquid UUM because it's more then double any UUM recipe. But making the cost dependent on modders to set a value for their products might make it less likely to be enduser friendly, as one has to convince modders to add the methods for the values.


    Maybe a double layered method. Make it so one can define a value with the API, but if the value isn't defined, just make it pricey but possible. AKA exactly what your plan seems to be upon reading your post again.


    So pricey UUM base cost, but modders can adjust the value of items in their mod if they choose to.

    Apprentice Redstoner, Professional Slacker

    Actually, I'm not entirely clear what your measuring unit is -- Minecraft liquids are measured in millibuckets*, and I've defined one piece of UUM as one bucket's worth. 30 mB is exceptionally cheap (a macerator acceleration costs more than that), whereas 30 buckets is huge (tanks tend to store 16 buckets per block, for a sort of comparison).


    Of course, we don't have to consume all 30 buckets at once... huh. I vaguely recall having a similar discussion at some point in the past, about a machine that would consume a liquid gradually and maintain progress even if the liquid supply was a bit slow. I think it was a kind of liquid UU carpenter, and probably around page... 5? of this thread. And you know, these two ideas do go together quite nicely.



    * - a millibucket might theoretically be 1L if you follow this logic: 1 bucket takes or places 1 m3 of liquid, therefore 1 millibucket (literally, 1/1000th of a bucket) is 1 dm3, or 1 liter. The problem with this logic is 1 m3 of water kind of weighs a ton (literally, 1,000 kg), which really doesn't sound right at all.

    Didnt you realise that steve is actually superman, He often carries around ton's and ton's of stuff in his backpack so 1000kg of water in a bucket seems good to me ;)

    One cubic meter. That's the size of most things in Minecraft. And steve can carry stacks of 64 of these things. If steve wasn't superman, how would he carry 64 cubic meters of iron like it's nothing, while also being able to hold 35 more stacks of 64 cubic meters of iron. And a cubic meter of iron weighs 7,874 kg.


    Or, there is one very different explanation on why Steve is so strong. He is actually from the Monster Hunter series World, and is thus exactly as strong as he needs to be.

    Apprentice Redstoner, Professional Slacker

    Yeah, Steve is really superman! He can carry around 44 500 tons of gold in his backpack and belt(hotbar)! Actually... STEVE=Super Trans-Evolved Versatile Explorer(of Minecraftia)! It makes sense!

    Quote from YX33A

    One cubic meter. That's the size of most things in Minecraft. And steve can carry stacks of 64 of these things. If steve wasn't superman, how would he carry 64 cubic meters of iron like it's nothing, while also being able to hold 35 more stacks of 64 cubic meters of iron. And a cubic meter of iron weighs 7,874 kg.


    Or, there is one very different explanation on why Steve is so strong. He is actually from the Monster Hunter series World, and is thus exactly as strong as he needs to be.


    Quote from viliml

    Yeah, Steve is really superman! He can carry around 44 500 tons of gold in his backpack and belt(hotbar)! Actually... STEVE=Super Trans-Evolved Versatile Explorer(of Minecraftia)! It makes sense!


    Both of these make sense, and are hilarious to boot! :) So, there you have it: 1 mB = 1L (more or less). Also, buckets are enormous.

    • Official Post

    Steve actually has a magic thing highly advanced Device called "Internal Nullspace Venturing Endless Nifty Toolbag On Ridiculous Yards or something less nonsense than that" (I.N.V.E.N.T.O.R.Y.). This Inventory can store an almost unlimited amount of Stuff inside, and fits perfectly inside your Pocket or onto your Belt. You can put almost everything inside this Inventory, no matter how large or heavy it is, even if its larger than the Inventory itself! You can even store things in it, which are larger than yourself! But thats not all!, the Inventory knows exactly what you want to grab out of it, and gives it right into your Hands, so that you can easyly pull it out of the Inventory. But wait!, there is more! The Inventory can magically show you has an inbuilt Holoprojector, to show you everything inside it, right in front of your Eyes, so that you can inspect the Inventory everytime you want! Also everything inside the Inventory looses its weight, making you able to carry shitloads of useless Stuff all the highly valuable Stuff with you, without having to leave something in the wilderness!


    Buy your Inventory now, and get tons of extraspace, when sharing it to random people Friends! We do not accept non-Humans non-Maincharacters inside our Shop, as computercontrolled Bots your Enemys are not supposed to have an highly lootable a large Inventory, like you!

    Quote from narc

    Also, buckets are enormous.

    And very useful, since the Iron which makes Bucket won't heat or smelt if it contains Lava. Or maybe it'll heat, but Steve is just so strong that he can easily bring something at 500 °C.


    Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
    NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

    Cant get within 50 meters of the vats they use at the steel works for in their blast furnace when they are cooling down (You will get third degree burns) Lava gets hotter than them (Its not just molten steel, its molten rock as well)
    And that is why minecraft lava is cold, you can fall in it hop out hop in some water and your all fine.

    Its just magic. although the bucket not melting is nothing special, the melting point of iron is higher than the temperature of lava, the fact that you can go anywhere near lava and not die is superman-esque (not just because of the temperature, but also the poisonous fumes.)

    Quote from WTFFFS

    Try standing within 15 meters or so of a large mass at 1100 deg C or thereabouts, I guarantee you won't enjoy the experience very much at all the radiant heat is a real killer.


    Yes, I know! But the post is very weird!
    1. just very cold. --- OK so far
    2. too hot to touch. --- You just said it's cold!
    3. but as lava goes. --- WTOMG?!?!
    4. Ice cool. --- EVERYONE KNOW ICE IS COOL!!!

    Quote from viliml

    [...]But the post is very weird!
    1. just very cold. --- OK so far
    2. too hot to touch. --- You just said it's cold!
    3. but as lava goes. --- WTOMG?!?!
    4. Ice cool. --- EVERYONE KNOW ICE IS COOL!!!

    No, that's an accepted English idiom: Minecraft lava is cold compared to real-life lava. "Ice-cold" is a common descriptive expression, I'm not sure what you're confused by.



    But, to sort of return to the topic at hand, Vilim here had an exceptionally interesting idea: using electrolyzed water as an intermediary for MJ<->EU conversions. If you think that sounds at all interesting, I urge you to give the Github issue (linked earlier) a read, but to save time I'll copy/paste part of my thoughts on the matter (the part I'm currently leaning towards):

    Quote

    I'm slightly wary of the internal logic of Buildcraft power -- it's supposed to be pneumatic/kinetic rather than electric; this is why it's generated by engines and not generators. The electrolyzer, on the other hand, is by definition electric.


    On the other hand, I could certainly see an engine run off electrolyzed water[...]. Railcraft steam engines and boilers, [for instance,] should find it easier to break down the charged water, leading to an increase in the steam output when boiling it.


    Of course, consuming electrolyzed water in an engine does nothing for the reverse transition (MJ to EU), and I'm not sure what logical machine would convert water into charged water using kinetic energy. [But if we] rename the LE to "Agitator" and just let it accept both MJ and EU, [we can] pair this with burning electrolyzed water in an engine and you can have two-way conversion in any direction, as long as you're willing to make [electrolyzed water] as an intermediate step: use MJs to power an agitator and transfer the electric water to another agitator that outputs EU; or use EUs to power an agitator and burn the electric water in an engine to make MJs.

    I'd very much appreciate as many views on the subject as possible -- this could be very interesting and fun to play with, and the more possibilities you can show me, the bigger my pool of choices for the eventual implementation (whenever that comes around).