Discussion about conversion mods.

  • We discuss this here because eloraam banned all kind of discussion about the issue in her thread in the minecraft forum post of Redpower 2 and i think in her blog too. And since saul still insist on talking about and Albaka hasnt done the same as eloraam here banning the topic.


    And well i took the wrong number, im a human after all.

  • However, the other point is very relevant. WHY is this topic still in the IC2 section of the forum? It's so off-topic that IC2 is only occasionally mentioned as a tangential reference. The thread is nominally about "conversion mods" but to me, it looks more like a lot of griping about how Eloraam does things. When did this become the RedPower forum?


    Point taken :3


  • Minor point of order:
    "Only" 5 million people have purchased the game. The 22 Million you quote is the number of registered users of minecraft.net. Let's not confuse forum membership with ownership of the product.
    Still, 5 million is pretty impressive, and it puts it up there with some pretty major PC and console games.


    However, the other point is very relevant. WHY is this topic still in the IC2 section of the forum? It's so off-topic that IC2 is only occasionally mentioned as a tangential reference. The thread is nominally about "conversion mods" but to me, it looks more like a lot of griping about how Eloraam does things. When did this become the RedPower forum?


    Basically eloraam dislikes people telling her what she has to do with her mod. So that's the main reason, the second one might be that the OP would most likely find even less people in the RP-thread agreeing to his position than he finds here.

  • Depends on how they use microblocks. If they code their own system to behave much like eloraams. Fine. If they just use her functions and essentially her mod to make their microblocks it's a bit different. Oh and totally recoding RP2 with everything in it is something in the grey. It's like reproducing a Song with different instruments and if you try this one you would surely run into trouble.


    Isn't that exactly what I just said? ...what I've been saying all along? Someone is free to look at her code and write their own based off what they LEARN? So long as they WRITE it and don't COPY it. But this isn't about her code it's about her PLANS.


    Recoding a RP2-clone would NOT be in the grey at all. So long as the code and art are original it would be an Original Creation. Like I said, TMI vs NEI... Identical Look, feel and function (aside from NEI being better and doing more.).


    It's more like writing symphonies where the music is code, notes would be variables and instructions. You can rearrange the notes to make many different orchestrations each one similar yet unmistakably individual. So long as you don't follow the exact melody then it's your song.


    No Minecraft-Players could just not buy the game. Minecraft is open for modding for a reason, they make money with it. Why should eloraam do it? She has no need for more users, so she is free to do what she wants. Actually you should know that Notch hates modding, he only allows it because Jeb convinced him, I guess mainly by the argument of money. If you run a company you are not free to do what you want, because you are restricted by economical aspects. I see no reason why eloraam should be compared to Mohjang in any means since it is a totally different situation if you make money with something or not.


    You think Mojang would be giving out refunds to the people that already paid? Aside from the part of the purchase agreement that states 'no guarantees about future updates'...


    It invalidates your 'just not buy the game'. The game was sold as being a modable, sandbox type environment. Notchs attitude towards modding doesn't really apply anymore- at least not since he left Minecraft to Jeb so that he could turn his attention to other interests.


    You might guess money was what won him over, but I'm not so sure. My vote would have to go to community loyalty... or a community in general. If nothing else you need mods so that (S)MP servers can be somewhat defined by the mod collection they run. Just as important is the ability to appeal to a wider range of players- Vanilla MC is tedious, I would have stopped playing long ago had I not discovered BC with it's quarry. I think loyalty and longevity probably trump the money aspect.


    The only reason there is a Mojang is because Notch couldn't do everything on his own. He needed tech support, an accountant, a business manager... when you employ people you have to form a company to do it with. Before there was a Mojang Notch had hinted at the possibility of releasing the whole thing to the public domain when he was finished\his interest wore off.


    If you don't want your game her way may I suggest not using her mod? What do you expect? That she creates a mod that is only for your personal needs?


    C'mon now. It's comments like that that are just outright foolish and mocking. This isn't about what Eloraam codes, ELORAAM IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FREE TO MOD REDPOWER2 IN WHATEVER WAY SHE DESIRES, that was never the question. It's about what she (dis)allows and WHY. It's about the fact that I would have found a converter mod useful for at least until she implemented hers and I started a new world (whichever came last). More or less the same reason that she used for allowing the Thaum converter.


    I though we already told you that immibis mod its useless without eloraam mod.


    Save this in you harddrive saul


    Goes for you too Fenix... I know that Immibis' mod is useless without Eloraams' mod. I was the one that pointed out that hers is useless without Mojangs GAME. It's part of what I think defines the 'Fair Use'. If you still doubt Fair Use, then please see the followup post to this one.


    Just drop the statements of mockery. It falls into what some people consider 'flaming' or 'being a troll'. I have no problems remembering what has been said in this thread- I'm the one that has to quote PARAGRAPHS of what he has previously said because other people bring up points that have been dead in the ditch so long that the scavengers have ravaged the carcasses and nothing but bones are left. Save that to your harddrive.


    And actually it is easier to use the BT-System than converting the EU to BT. Really there is not much that needs energy in her mod (Retrievers and Sorters don't use much energy. Since you can create a thermopile everywhere you would normally build a converter there is just no need for it. With IC2 installed even the nether is no problem since you can easily create Ice.


    That is you and how you play... the amount of energy is not the question. It's getting access in the area's in a consolidated system. I like the way that I've developed my production chain, the balance I've found between BC and IC2 for collection>sorting>processing>storing. I think it would be great if I could integrate a couple of RP sorters and retrievers into that. But not at the cost of a massive remodel in a world that I will be deleting when I update (whenever that ends up being.)


    Part of my balance is that I don't like to waste energy... It's the reason I have an excessive amount of IC2 storage and a lever to dump it all straight into a mass fab for when I want to run a nuke cycle a bit early or I shut down my BC quarries and my solars are producing excess energy for the Adv. IC2 machines that are sitting idle. I'm sure I could work ample Blu generation into the area's, but I don't like building systems that allow energy to be wasted... And I like Solar energy. At this point the Bluetric system has no options for excess energy. I don't want to give up on RP2- it has promise... I want to see where ELORAAM takes it. But in the short term I think this converter mod would have helped.


    Considering I'm STILL playing 1.0 dropping this mod in and playing from there beats reworking the areas that I'd have to add Blu Generation into.


    Of course has bluehorazon already say, they wont do something like that since mods are the number 1 attractive of the game and the reason almost 22million of people around the world bought the game.


    In normal situations, if you dont like the way a game is, you absolutely complain about it in a forum that has nothing to do with the game (Although related in a obscure way) until the creators do something about it............... oh wait? No you dont! you simply dont buy the game and look for something else you would want to play.


    Right, but IF they did people would protest right? Considering that modding is such a large part of Minecraft and all... So the 'what-if' is relative, though in a minor way.


    And this topic being here is relative to IC2 considering that the conversion mod was as much a part of IC2 as it was a part of RP2. Immibis' mod was a sub-mod of IC2 as well, I just figured Alblaka would be more tolerant than Eloraam. As shown by FenixR's statement about her banning all conversation related.


    That and on the whole I don't like MCF and view it as advertising for mods more than anything.


    Basically eloraam dislikes people telling her what she has to do with her mod. So that's the main reason, the second one might be that the OP would most likely find even less people in the RP-thread agreeing to his position than he finds here.


    Again, Not telling her what to do with her mod.


    I don't like MCF on the whole and it's Eloraams' thread, people would be freer to agree with my dissension here. Why am I to be faulted for this?


    ...Sorry for the upcoming double-post...

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • I didn't want this to be about licenses and copyrights because that is so dependent on jurisdiction and no 2 courts in the same jurisdiction can seem to agree half the time. Not to mention that you'd be hard pressed to even find a court to hear this case... But... based on US copyright which is often the most restrictive and what a lot of other countries are pressured into looking at for their own laws.


    Without actually comparing Eloraams and Immibis code I can't speak as to exactly how protected he would be. But I'm posting it now because I just want to end the license and copyright aspects of this thread and it all justifies the 'Fair Use' concept that no one seems to be willing to comprehend.


    First quote speaks to the fact that Eloraams' PLANS are not 'copyright-able'...(and if a RP2-clone would be allowed as bluehorazon doubts)


    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;common misunderstandings;Acknowledgment of the source makes a use fair.'(off-topic quote) - Copyright is a matter of law, and protects exact expression, not ideas.


    The rest is about Fair Use.


    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use...


    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use' - Fair use is a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work. In United States copyright law, fair use is a doctrine that permits limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders.


    @quote- 'US Copyright Law;17 U.S.C. § 107' - Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:


    1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
    2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
    3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
    4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use' - Fair use tempers copyright's exclusive rights to serve the purpose of copyright law, which the US Constitution defines as the promotion of "the Progress of Science and useful Arts" (Art. I, § 8, cl. 8). This principle... ...sheds light on various other limitations on copyright's exclusive rights, particularly the scenes à faire doctrine


    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;scènes à faire' - As another example, in programming, it is often customary to list variables at the beginning of the source code of a program. In some programming languages, it is required to also declare the type of variable at the same time. Depending on the function of a program, certain types of variables are to be expected. If a program deals with files, variable types that deal with files are often listed and declared. As a result, variable declarations are generally not considered protected elements of a program.


    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;common misunderstandings' - "It's copyrighted, so it can't be fair use." On the contrary, fair use applies only to copyrighted works, describing conditions under which copyrighted material may be used without permission. If a work is not copyrighted, fair use does not come into play, since public-domain works can be used for any purpose without violating copyright law.


    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;fair use and professional communities' - Courts, when deciding fair use cases, in addition to looking at context, amount and value of the use, also look to the standards and practices of the professional communities where the case comes from.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • If you don't want to talk about licences... than don't do it. But none of your fair-use cases are useable in this case. No idea why you underlined teaching or research etc. since this is most likely not the case.


    https://twitter.com/#!/jeb_/status/169168956714782722


    So I don't know how anyone can possibly blame her for anything. The only reason, and she already said so later is that she wants control over what addons exists for RP. That's the purpose of asking first, since she might say yes or no. So you save a lot of work if you ask first.

  • If you don't want to talk about licences... than don't do it. But none of your fair-use cases are useable in this case. No idea why you underlined teaching or research etc. since this is most likely not the case.


    https://twitter.com/#!/jeb_/status/169168956714782722


    So I don't know how anyone can possibly blame her for anything. The only reason, and she already said so later is that she wants control over what addons exists for RP. That's the purpose of asking first, since she might say yes or no. So you save a lot of work if you ask first.


    ... ...They don't apply? ... ...Um... ok... how?. Anyway- I didn't bring licenses into this, like I said- intent was to end the license aspect. I've stated repeatedly that this is not about her license, neither for me nor for her. It's about her plans, which are not covered by copyright. 'Copyright is a matter of law, which protects EXACT expression, not ideas.'


    ALL of my fair-use examples are relevant (seriously, if they aren't then itemize so I can address.)- License agreements CANNOT trump LAW, license agreements CANNOT deprive users of rights granted by law. It's part of the reason that Mojang obfuscates, Java is impossible to protect from decompilation, at least compared to other languages.


    The reason that I underlined 'teaching', 'research' and 'scholarship', is to emphasize that the LAW specifically allows exemptions for uses of an educational nature, he wanted to learn to mod. It is absolutely the case as it's what immibis stated as his reason in the post that he released his converter in.


    And I'm saying that LEGALLY Eloraam has no grounds to deny people from doing anything except taking her exact work and passing it off as their own. If Eloraam tried to take legal action against someone she would find herself in the uncomfortable position of being a DEFENDANT in an Anti-Trust and/or anti-SLAPP lawsuit.


    HER LICENSE IS IN VIOLATION OF THE FAIR-USE DOCTRINE, a sub-section of the US Copyright Law.


    Every single example of 'Fair-Use' and how it applies here is relative, it is the reader's unwillingness to comprehend that has kept this thread spinning it's wheels.


    Look at the last wikipedia quote and tell me how it is that it does not apply to the conversation at hand.


    She want's control that she is not legally allowed to have, at least not in the United States. (See the last wiki quote from previous post).


    ...and Eloraam helping Jeb does not automatically canonize her into sainthood. Questions of motivation apply. Why is as important as What.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • Fair use law do allow you to decompile code for whatever reason you listed above and it will not be listed as a breach of agreement, but Fair Use DOESNT allow you to make public whatever you use the code for (Unless what you did doesnt contain Absolutely nothing of the original code and of course doesnt depend of the original code for something), which is what immibis did, he can very well distribute it privately but he isnt allowed to expose in a public place for anyone to come and grab it especially without any permission whatsover from the original code author, which was the case of him posting it here.


    Once again, her mod, her plan,her domain, her property, her control.

  • And as the last quote shows- *if* this ever was heard in a court "... in addition to looking at context, amount and value of the use, also look to the standards and practices of the professional communities where the case comes from..."


    Context- It's non-profit. All of it. Mojang are the only ones making money. That weighs heavily when settlement would be in the form of monetary damages. / It's a conversion mod that competes with her PLANS of the way she wants to do it- plans aren't protectable.
    Amount- Converter only touches RP2, see 'scenes a faire' quote- certain usages are to be expected and are therefore not covered.
    Standards and Practices - professional does not mean 'programmers' here, it means that mods in general and other conversion mods would set the standard. ie: the Minecraft Modding Community.


    Once again, her mod, her plan,her domain, her property, her control.


    and of course doesnt depend of the original code for something


    he can very well distribute it privately


    And her plan is not protectable.
    Variable declarations ARE NOT protectable.
    Wrong. Distribution is distribution. peer2peer sharing of music is illegal no matter the venue.


    This is about how far her domain extends, and how in this case she is exerting her control where she should not have domain and therefore should have no control.


    'plug-ins' are not her code and therefore not her domain. Mojang does not insist on modders having their approval, that is the standard as set forth by fair-use, and you can't really argue it because Mojang (and SpaceToad and Alblaka for conversions) have ALREADY set the standard.


    The standard was being set when she was still submodding for BC.


    And as you conceded- Fair Use does allow decompilation, that part of her license is already invalidated in places that EXPRESSLY allow it.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • Quote

    The reason that I underlined 'teaching', 'research' and 'scholarship', is to emphasize that the LAW specifically allows exemptions for uses of an educational nature, he wanted to learn to mod. It is absolutely the case as it's what immibis stated as his reason in the post that he released his converter in.


    If he wanted to learn, why making it public?


    Quote

    Look at the last wikipedia quote and tell me how it is that it does not apply to the conversation at hand.


    Quote

    @quote- 'wikipedia;copyright;fair_use;fair use and professional communities' - Courts, when deciding fair use cases, in addition to looking at context, amount and value of the use, also look to the standards and practices of the professional communities where the case comes from.


    Ehm Eloraam isn't the only one taking this stance. And a modding community isn't professional by any means. And since the minecraft-modding community is by no means a standardized community (well it is not even a real community, since parts of it are quite isolated from each other), this just doesn't apply.


    But since the licence-thing is not that important as you say, since most likely there isn't even a case for this and eloraam doesn't even need this, since the MCF-Team and Alblaka remove threads by requests of the modders, so she doesn't even need a licence that is totally save.


    But the point I still miss is why is it bad. She proved to be quite valuable for some other modders and even MC-development (technically the lamps will most likely also be fixed to behave like her lamps, since the actual ones don't work well), and she approved even addons, even those that conflict with her ideas (computercraft).


    There are some notable things in this regards:


    1. RP is a rather bugfree mod whenever released. I once said that this is mainly based on experience exspecially in trouble-shooting, if she detects a bug it is normally fixed in the next release. Normally she only allows addons if they are well made and I guess this is to keep the quality on the level she maintains. Most likely this is the reason why she only permits uses of her work to other modders who have something to proof that they know what they are doing.


    2. Just read the suggestion about the advanced machines. People are really suggesting that alblaka should remove the Induktion-Furnace because he does not include the other advanced machines. She avoids this problem by only allowing other modders to make adjustments to work with Redpower. So if Azanor as an example maintains his conversion-part for thaumcraft than this conversion is obsolete if he stops developing his mods. A seperat addons development could stop development even if people still want to use it, which would of course result in requests directed at her (which she then needs to ignore).


    3. It is quite possible to bend a mod a lot using addons. I can understand some dislike in regards to this. Using IC2 as an example. There are a lot of mods I dislike since their only purpose is making things a lot easier.


    4. Although it is not the majority Addons will cause more support-request. As long as people are unable to assign some blockIDs this could be ignored, since most likely they won't surpass them.



    So her stance seems reasonable and I still the don't see benefits for her from changing it.

  • If he wanted to learn, why making it public?


    You've never done something, been proud of yourself and wanted to show it off?


    Ehm Eloraam isn't the only one taking this stance. And a modding community isn't professional by any means. And since the minecraft-modding community is by no means a standardized community (well it is not even a real community, since parts of it are quite isolated from each other), this just doesn't apply.


    You're misinterpreting the term 'professional' - the non-profit and unique nature of Minecraft would redefine the usage of 'professional'. It applies when taken in context.


    But the point I still miss is why is it bad.... ....and she approved even addons, even those that conflict with her ideas (computercraft).


    THINK ABOUT IT. Add it all up and put it all together... if SpaceToad took Eloraams approach there might never have been a RedPower.... ComputerCraft is a bad example as it's more like NEI with a RP2 subset. ie: ComputerCraft is a mod unto itself. ComputerCraft isn't really a RP2 'addon' now is it?


    1. RP is a rather bugfree mod whenever released. I once said that this is mainly based on experience exspecially in trouble-shooting, if she detects a bug it is normally fixed in the next release. Normally she only allows addons if they are well made and I guess this is to keep the quality on the level she maintains. Most likely this is the reason why she only permits uses of her work to other modders who have something to proof that they know what they are doing.


    blah blah... Yes, Eloraam has a great mod... is a great coder... Still doesn't change the fact that this mod wouldn't have done ANYTHING good or bad for the people that chose not to install it.


    2. Just read the suggestion about the advanced machines. People are really suggesting that alblaka should remove the Induktion-Furnace because he does not include the other advanced machines. She avoids this problem by only allowing other modders to make adjustments to work with Redpower. So if Azanor as an example maintains his conversion-part for thaumcraft than this conversion is obsolete if he stops developing his mods. A seperat addons development could stop development even if people still want to use it, which would of course result in requests directed at her (which she then needs to ignore).


    Alblaka is free to maintain HIS mod the way he see's fit, same as Eloraam could with HERS.
    Did IC2<>BC conversion STOP when PowerCrystals stopped updating their converter? I seriously doubt it's as much WHO does the mod... I think it's more about WHAT and how it competes.
    LOL.... and it takes OH SO MUCH effort to ignore a MCF post... two mouse wheel flicks and you're past it.


    3. It is quite possible to bend a mod a lot using addons. I can understand some dislike in regards to this. Using IC2 as an example. There are a lot of mods I dislike since their only purpose is making things a lot easier.


    Right. And what do you do? ...YOU choose NOT to install them. Same as anyone else that doesn't want immibis' mod to affect their game.


    4. Although it is not the majority Addons will cause more support-request. As long as people are unable to assign some blockIDs this could be ignored, since most likely they won't surpass them.


    What? Are you saying that Eloraam would have more support requests in her MCF thread?


    Have we not discussed that? Do I really need to go over that again?


    So her stance seems reasonable and I still the don't see benefits for her from changing it.


    only because you don't want to...

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.


  • You've never done something, been proud of yourself and wanted to show it off?


    That's not protected under "Fair Use". I don't recall seeing "showing off work you're proud of" as an addendum to "teaching. learning and research". Keep reaching. :rolleyes:


  • That's not protected under "Fair Use". I don't recall seeing "showing off work you're proud of" as an addendum to "teaching. learning and research". Keep reaching. :rolleyes:


    In copyright there is a dividing line at 'Commercial' and 'Non-Profit' that weighs heavily, often times 'non-profit' is considered synonymous with 'educational' and receives many of the same protections. If not for Fair-Use it would be a violation as soon as he loaded RP2 and clicked 'decompile'. The ACT would be illegal, not what comes after.


    It is covered because it's HIS creation, fair-use defines WHAT CAPACITY he is allowed to use Eloraam's work to create his own.


    Point is- once he has created HIS work it's his to do with as he pleases.


    He didn't steal her work, he looked at her code to essentially see what she named the Blu variable because that is required when making a converter.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • so does any one know how eloraam reacted to thaumcrafts vis->blulectric power converter?(nvm tl;dr herpderp sry) personally the addon that got banned caught my attention simply because it had melon batteries

    true balance is impossible in video games the best one can hope for is to make it really hard to guess which of 2 choices are better.
    and remember kids "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF JOKES!"

  • so does any one know how eloraam reacted to thaumcrafts vis->blulectric power converter? personally the addon that got banned caught my attention simply because it had melon batteries


    READ!!!, it was mentioned several times in this thread. Also isn't this considered a necro?

  • first i didn't start the necro


    second I was under the false impression that the thaumic generator was a more recent development then febuary


    third mistakes happen mister ask for release date

    true balance is impossible in video games the best one can hope for is to make it really hard to guess which of 2 choices are better.
    and remember kids "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF JOKES!"