Discussion about conversion mods.

    Quote from FenixR

    (1) - and it was in her plans (if you could say it like that),


    (2) - She is allowed to change her mind OR her plans


    (3) - In Minecraft Forum RP2 thread SOMEONE asked if a thaumcraft Vis<->Blue converter would eloraam responded that it would be possible, if the developer of thaum or someone close did it if permission where to be asked before hand, because she hasnt Thaumcraft compatibility in mind (Honestly thaumcraft its still not famous like the big technological 3, IC2/BC/RP2, so of course you cant blame Eloraam for skipping this mod althogether)


    (1) - I CAN say it like that. It's a direct quote that SHE wrote.


    (2) - Go reread the quote you commented on. What you wrote has NOTHING to do with the point that I was trying to make. Not in context AT ALL. My comment that you replied to isn't about Eloraam changing her mind, it's about discrediting all the different reason's that people keep giving for Eloraam going this route with this. It's about reasserting that Eloraams' reason's for objecting to this mod are plainly stated in the post that got the converter pulled. The comment that you are replying to is proving that the only reasoning that still stands is that this is about HER eliminating COMPETITION for what SHE is PLANNING.


    It's not that she doesn't like people messing with 'In-Progress' code. It's NOT about ALL conversion mods- just the ones that she want's to do HER way.
    It's about proving that immibis' mod would not have affected HER implementation IN ANYWAY.


    (3) - I don't blame her for not including ThaumCraft. I'm saying that her own comments and actions DO NOT align with the reason's people are trying to justify her actions with.


    SHE SAID ANY. 'Any' in this usage is synonymous with 'all'. To say that you'll not allow ANY, then allowing ONE discredits the statement. It shows that it's about HER PLANS. No other reasoning I've seen so far can stand-up to dissection.


    She won't allow ANY conversion, BECAUSE SHE HAS HER OWN PLANS FOR THAT. ...except ThaumCraft which she has no desire to do HER way.


    It's not about balance. It's not about completeness of the Bluetric code. It's not about Eloraam having to support immibis' mod.


    It's about Eloraams' rates being the only rates. It's about Eloraams' conversion being the ONLY conversion. It's about Eloraams' way being the ONLY way.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    In the end, its eloraam code. She can have a monopoly on the bluetricity convertors because she made the bluetricity system. You only have proven that eloraam its a selfish human being (And im not saying its a bad thing, society has his way to a make human being that act on selfishness or similar emotions like they are a cancer that should be excised from the world...) and we have proven that she has all the rights to do so. Once again community wishes impact little on this decision because they didnt made the bluetricity system, it was solely she coded and tested it and implemented it.


    The only reason why other types of power converters exist (and sometimes theres more than one for the same conversion type), its because the Mod developers that made their own energy system didnt have any plan to add any kind of converter whatsoever, while the community was asking for those a lot, and because they gave permission for those converters to exist or simply they didnt care if the converter existed or not.

    Quote from Bluehorazon


    No the approve for computercraft stayed but she disallowed further uses by other people.

    [/quote]


    Yeah... your original statement made it seem you were saying the opposite.


    Quote from Bluehorazon

    There is a great difference if you give some stuff to a random guy or another renown modder.


    And your point is what? I'm saying that if it's about unfinished code then she's not going to want ANYONE to touch it. Renowned modder, or not. If it's about the current condition of the Bluetric code then she'd not let ANYONE touch it. Not Immibis nor the maker of Thaum.


    Quote from Bluehorazon

    Would be nice if thinks would work this way. You would also expect that the creators of modpacks are the guys who get asked if problems arise. But people run straight to the threads of the large mods.


    And usually the person that does that gets directed to take their problem the the Pack thread, and usually not even by the mod maintainer. Typically a random user does it before the mod maintainer even see's it.


    Quote

    Again your not entirely right. If an Addon calls a function which stays the same it might function even with another version. Only MC-Updates will screw it. Eloraam will have to purposely destroy the addon, if she doesn't do so accidently.


    That is a VERY large might. When Eloraam releases her own converter she probably WILL have to modify the same functions' the converter is using. It makes sense for her converter to use the same functions' and I'd totally expect her to have to tweak those when hers' is ready for release.


    Quote

    Exactly this is the point. It put's pressure on her. Her solutions normally aren't that easy and most likely this would be true for the converter too.


    Seriously? You consider this a valid reason? Did people flood Alblaka with 'Why don't you make your machines work as fast as the Advanced Machines?' No, they didn't. How does it put pressure on her? She makes her converter her way, people that complain can be told to shut up and use immibis' conversion if they don't like her rates.


    Quote

    (4) - That's an issue that has nothing to do with this subject... That's simply an issue with Minecraft itself and should be less of an issue once we get an official Mojang API.


    I believe it if I see it. ID-Conflicts will still arise and make up about 50% of all errors. But this point is described above.


    And with IDconflicts being such a large source of problems, don'cha kinda think that'll be one of the major things Mojang tries to fix? I'll guarantee that as they work on the API they will look to the community to see what issues they should be trying to fix. Jens has already said that he intends modding to be done from an in-game menu, I'd not be at all surprised if the client ended up with a built-in IDresolver.


    Quote

    Of course I can. The normal process is this:


    No... you can't. Providing support for stuff of that nature IS well within the obligations of providing support for your product. Nevermind that this would be Immibis' support issue. Eloraam already gets 'where are the config' questions as it is. It's part of being a mod developer, helping the clueless. No matter what, you'll always get computer users that think the optical drive tray is a "retractable cup holder shelf thingie."


    Quote

    If you apply this words to ComputerCraft she would had to disallow it too.


    Right, and as you said a couple posts back, 'Grey area because she hadn't made things that clear first'.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote from FenixR

    In the end, its eloraam code. She can have a monopoly on the bluetricity convertors because she made the bluetricity system. You only have proven that eloraam its a selfish human being (And im not saying its a bad thing, society has his way to a make human being that act on selfishness or similar emotions like they are a cancer that should be excised from the world...) and we have proven that she has all the rights to do so.


    And if people would stop allowing her to get away with her selfishness, were more willing to call her on it and were less willing to cooperate with her so long as she continues in the same vein then maybe she'd have a reason to approach things differently. So long as she is able to use such tactics and get the results she desires then she has no incentive to change.


    Until she sees turning backs and cold-shoulders she won't change. Or at least the threat of if she's as smart as we all seem to think she is.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote from Alblaka


    They did.


    And what did you tell them...? "I'll get right on that for you?"


    I see you added machine upgrades? Great way to achieve that goal.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    And if people would stop allowing her to get away with her selfishness, were more willing to call her on it and were less willing to cooperate with her so long as she continues in the same vein then maybe she'd have a reason to approach things differently. So long as she is able to use such tactics and get the results she desires then she has no incentive to change.


    Until she sees turning backs and cold-shoulders she won't change. Or at least the the threat of if she's as smart as we all seem to think she is.

    Have you considered that maybe people dont want her to change? It seems more than 50% of the comunity supports Eloraam methods because they keep downloading her mod and using it, as long as she keeps programming she can do it her way and with her rules. Thats the basic gist of it. Selfishenss its not a bad thing, i dunno why you keep saying otherwise.


    If you want to throw a Tea Party and boycott eloraam redpower then you are free to do so, just dont expect to have much people backing you up.


    And "Such Tactics" are what made the world the way it is now, no reason to start complaining about it now.


    Besides even if you managed to get most of the community to give her the "Cold-Shoulder" the worst case scenario is that she wont change "Her Ways", what its most likely to happen is that she packs her bags and say good bye to the modding aspect of minecraft for good taking with her RedPower (<- This would mean that if someone wants a mod that did the same things redpower does, they will have to make it from ZERO, totallly forbidden to take any of Eloraam code because her project its closed-source). If that its good or bad, it depends, Redpower wasnt made in a Day, i bet any mod trying to copy it will take a good amount of time to reach the level eloraam has set so far (Most specially the covers, doing something like that its simply not that easy as people might want to think).

    You're confusing her methods with what amounts to a damn good mod.


    I can provide examples to prove that her attitude has caused issues. The same attitude that I've been talking about, people tolerate her attitude due to her abilities.


    It's great that she's got that level of ability, but it's detestable that she has to be tolerated.


    Quote

    i bet any mod trying to copy it will take a good amount of time to reach the level eloraam has set so far


    But several people cooperating with each other, each working on their own part would make MUCH faster progress.


    If someone with a more cooperative attitude were at the helm it wouldn't be a matter of waiting on one person to do EVERYTHING. As good as she is she can still only write one piece of code at a time.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Its still her ship, she has her own vision of what she wants to do, so the least you could do its cooperate with her. The fact that no one has come forth to make a new mod similar to redpower should tell you that eloraam its doing a good job by herself, Look at TMI vs NEI, I dont particulary use neither but i find it amusing that 2 mods that could be considered practically the same exist. (And from what i gatter NEI its the most popular one?)


    Anyway has you have said, eloraam has the skills and people "tolerate" her for that, isnt the same in the real world? I dont get why you are still going on about it, if you dont like her methods feel free to start on your own redstone mod and gather a good team to help you make it, because complaining about eloraam isnt doing a damn thing about it, i seriously doubt she will change the way she works, at least in the most immediate future.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    So... how would I feel if Eloraam packed up her mod and told us all to go to hell? Minecraft will still be Minecraft...pretty much the same. I'd miss the redstone wiring but that's about it.


    Well, now... where would that leave Immibis? Suddenly, he has an add-on for a mod that no longer exists - and he's part of the reason why.


    Seriously, you can say you wouldn't care if she cancelled RedPower, but if that's true, why bitch about the way she runs things? It's obvious that you do care, and more obvious that you feel you're more fit to tell others how they should manage their own creative endeavors. I guess I missed the part that gives you the right to decide how people may or may not restrict use of their work.


    And you still continue to ignore the fact that Immibis needed her code to make his mod - not just because it works alongside RP, but because he had to decompile the code (in violation of the license) in order to do so.


    You've still failed to convince me - all you've done is repeat the same opinions over and over, while we remind you of the facts that you refuse to acknowledge. But here's something to consider - it doesn't matter one bit what you think about the issue. Or what I think either, for that matter. Eloraam can and will do as she sees fit, and the law is on her side. No self-appointed champion of the people is going to change that. All you've done is taken issue with how each developer sees fit to manage their demesne. First it was Alblaka, now it's Eloraam... I guess the only one you have yet to go after is SpaceToad. Better start working on your overly long-winded post for his forums. I'm sure you'll find an issue to campaign against soon enough.


    (1) - No, he doesn't. Same reason I gave when you tried to say that I could just change his existing converter, just not release it. He HAD an addon. No longer has it because Eloraam forced it's removal. That's the root of this whole situation. Whether his mod should have been allowed. If his mod still existed this thread would have never been created. Remember? That's what prompted me.


    (2) - No, I WOULD care. I would just get over it. I don't WANT it, I'd much prefer an alternative outcome.


    (3) - Because I hate it when people reach too far with 'protecting' what 'threatens' their work.


    (4) - The part where I'm a 'people' allowed to form and express my own opinion.


    (5) - Yes, much in the same way that a person NEEDS a book to learn to read. It's not like she had a converter already in her code that he straight up copy-pasted. Essentially he used her code to say... 'OK, that's how you spell 'cat'..."


    (6) - See my response marked (3), the license agreement hers' is based on WAS NEVER INTENDED TO COVER DERIVATIVE WORKS. Community Copyright's were designed to be a fair system that protect creators' while allowing 'fair use'.


    (7) - Yet I've managed to discredit 90% of the things that you have come at me with.


    (8) - Because people keep coming at me with things that I've already addressed and put down.


    (9) - Really? What fact's do I still not acknowledge? That she has a license? That she is enforcing it as she feels appropriate? That it's her mod to do with as she pleases? I acknowledge those things, it's the validity of some of those 'facts' that I fail to acknowledge.


    (10) - My only issue with Alblaka was the policy of 'ask=ban' when no real efforts had been taken to preempt the question that people were asking. As I stated in that thread 'All he would have had to do is make a post saying 'We know 1.0 is out, we will be releasing a 1.8.1 bug fix release BEFORE we start on a 1.0 version'. Instead people we waiting for a month and a half when all he would have had to do is say '1.8.1 bug-fix, then I'll have school stuff keeping me busy for a couple weeks.'


    (11) - Honestly, I've seen nothing from SpaceToad that would ever make me think I'd be in a similar situation with him. I just don't think he has it in him. Keep in mind he's the one that released Forge with a totally open license (something I'm NOT asking of Eloraam), he's cooperated (nay, helped) with people looking to work off of his work.


    (12) - Please don't criticize the fact that I'm literate, articulate and tend to write the way I think. As I said, it's comments like these that cause people to make thing's about you. You've already accused me of 'making thing's about you', stop making it about me when you were the one throwing that accusation around. This isn't about you Mr. "there have to be at least 42 people of below-average intelligence to offset someone with my IQ"... YOU make it about YOU.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    You're entitled to your opinion, as poorly-formed and ill-founded it may be - and I'm equally entitled to tell you what I think of it.
    Don't presume to imagine that you've "discredited" anything - the facts still stand. Eloraam's license is exactly what it states, no matter what you imagine it's based on. Use of her mod equals consent to the terms of the license.


    Despite all your carrying on, she was still within her rights to enforce that license and her fellow developers will not second-guess her in that regard, even if they personally feel differently about their own work. Nothing you've posted has changed Eloraam's license, her will to enforce it, or the cooperation she receives from her colleagues.


    So basically, you've said a whole lot and accomplished nothing. You tilt at windmills and then get offended when people are blunt about the futility of it. You won't get Immibis' mod cleared, you won't get Eloraam to do anything she doesn't want to (though all this drama is more likely to make her just say 'to hell with it all' and then you're left defending an add-on for a mod that no longer exists).


    You're right - this is not about me - it never has been. It's always been about you. You can say I'm the reason people "make it about me", but if your so-called "facts" stood for themselves, all you'd need to do is present them and be done with it.


    So, considering that you've managed to convince no one so far, how's it about me again?


    (1) - And that is your opinion... I have a PM from another user that disagrees with your assertion and Alblaka himself has given a nod to how well-argumented my opinion was... You yourself tried to discredit my acknowledgement and appreciation of that. Remember? And I've not tried to deprive you of your opinion, I've just not tolerated your attempts at personal jabs.


    (2) - I'm not presuming or imagining anything. It's pretty clear that I've done a better job of defending and reasserting my view's than you have done with your attempts to discount and invalidate mine. Majority of my points still apply while yours are either dead or dying in the ditch a few pages back. Or are you still asserting that immibis stole or harmed Eloraams' works? The only point I've not disputed of yours and still stands is that she does indeed have a license.


    (3) - Maybe not now, but perhaps in the future. Do you really think I expect Eloraam to show up and say 'You know Saul... you're totally right. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.' I'm not the first to take up this battle, likely not be the last.


    (4) - Merely your opinion. I'm not going to itemize what I feel are accomplishments. But I will say that I whole-heartedly feel as though I accomplished what I set out to do when I started this thread. And more.


    (5) - I'm not offended by bluntly being told it's futile. As I've said repeatedly, I never expected this thread to directly change anything, I've left that to others. I'm well aware of the fact that I have no influence over Eloraam, even before you felt it was necessary to point that out to me. The only thing said to me that I've been offended about is you accusing me of something when you do it with regularity.


    (6) - Don't expect to. Never really did. What was done was done, this has all been more about the future for me.


    (7) - Don't expect to. That's a task better left to others.


    (8) - As I tried to point out in (1) of my last post I think what you meant to say here is 'and then you're left defending an add-on that no longer exists for a mod that no longer exists.'


    (9) - And you're the only one that tried to make it about you. I certainly never tried. As far as being about me... well, it is MY opinion so I kinda have to be involved, now don't I?


    (10) - No... You accused me of making it about you. All I did is say that you were being difficult for repeating the same argument without taking what I had just said into account. How many times did I have to explain to you that immibis TOOK nothing from Eloraam? How many times did I have to explain that nothing was STOLEN? How many times did I have to explain that he didn't COPY Eloraams' work?


    (11) - My facts do still stand. The phrasing in Eloraams' takedown post proves what her motivations for 'protecting' her work are. I still say that if it was about any other reason she would have written it as such. THAT is a fact. Feel free to take a swing at it if you think you can. And if all I had to do was 'present' my facts and be done with it.' What am I supposed to do when people make statements that don't apply? Ignore them and pretend they were never stated? Unfortunately that doesn't work, and I've had to excessively defend my views. Proof being the fact that I've had to quote, rephrase and repeat a half dozen times the fact that Eloraams' true concerns are clearly stated within her takedown post and that if it was about any other reason she would have stated it as such in place of the reasons she did state.


    (12) - Convince? Perhaps not, but I've seen support of my views. ...I was quite touched and shocked when someone that I've never interacted with took the time and effort to write me a PM to voice their support of my opinions. They didn't have to do that by any means, and the fact they did makes this entire experience worth it despite the negativity of my detractors'.


    (13) - Um... probably because YOU accused ME of it. Twice in as many threads I might mention. Great tactic though... accuse someone of something that's not true, then ask them why they are doing it.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote

    You're confusing her methods with what amounts to a damn good mod.


    I can provide examples to prove that her attitude has caused issues. The same attitude that I've been talking about, people tolerate her attitude due to her abilities.


    It's great that she's got that level of ability, but it's detestable that she has to be tolerated.


    Oh... of course do certain attidudes cause issues. And guess what... most modders expect that they behavior will cause them. If there would be an attidude that doesn't cause issues every modder would most likely adopt it. Eloraam and FCs attidudes are quite similar, which is the main reason they are somehow conflicting with each other. They protect there work at all means and basically they see their mod as there own work which they just share. We are allowed to play their mod and that's it.


    And of course she has to be tolerated. It's not that we have any right to question her doing. The only decision the average user could take is about using or not using her mod. Everything else is her playground and she decides about it. You may ask her anything but there isn't really any reason for her to even listen to your requests, if she does it, you should be happy with it. But she has not obligation to do as we like.


    Quote

    (2) - I'm not presuming or imagining anything. It's pretty clear that I've done a better job of defending and reasserting my view's than you have done with your attempts to discount and invalidate mine. Majority of my points still apply while yours are either dead or dying in the ditch a few pages back. Or are you still asserting that immibis stole or harmed Eloraams' works? The only point I've not disputed of yours and still stands is that she does indeed have a license.


    Your arguments just miss the point. Her licence is put black on white and there obviously was a violation of this licence. What you say is that this licence is stupid and we say that this is not of your concern.


    Quote

    (11) - My facts do still stand. The phrasing in Eloraams' takedown post proves what her motivations for 'protecting' her work are. I still say that if it was about any other reason she would have written it as such.


    Normally it's about many reasons. But yeah, the main reason is that the addon did something she disallowed. You only speak about the reason she forbid this addon. But yeah it's that simple it's not allowed by her. It's the other way around, there are certain reasons why she had allowed other people to modify her code. Basically every modification is forbidden, but there are exceptions like NEI, ComputerCraft and the not even existing ThaumCraft-Transformer.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Saul_Goode

    And what did you tell them...? "I'll get right on that for you?"


    I see you added machine upgrades? Great way to achieve that goal.


    1. Told them "Nope, there won't be Induction-Speedup mechanisms for anything but furnaces, that's a personal balance decision".
    2. Decided to implement overclockers speeding up the processes by 200% at max.
    3. Hyped coder ignored the idea of tiered OCs and coded the current system, wasn't me though ^^


    Quote from Saul_Goode

    This isn't about you Mr. "there have to be at least 42 people of below-average intelligence to offset someone with my IQ"... YOU make it about YOU.


    Don't make me lock this thread because you start to insult someone, even if using a non-swearing manner.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    Alblaka himself has given a nod to how well-argumented my opinion was...


    ... But he still locked Immibis' thread, he still deleted the link, and he openly acknowledged that he will support Eloraam and her right to protect her mod, even if he feels differently about his own license.
    And make no mistake, there have been add-ons and uses of his license that he has not permitted in the past, as well.


    Quote

    Majority of my points still apply while yours are either dead or dying in the ditch a few pages back.


    The "majority of your points" have accomplished nothing. Nothing has changed - Immibis' add-on was not permitted, Eloraam has not revised her license. The only thing you've helped to do is to sour her desire to share her mod with us. I'm sure the community owes you our thanks? :rolleyes:


    As for my points? I have only ever had one to make, and it still stands: Everything you've said here is empty and useless talk, because it will not change a single thing. Unless and until it does, you can't possibly say you've "proven me wrong".


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    I will say that I whole-heartedly feel as though I accomplished what I set out to do when I started this thread. And more.


    What, exactly, have you accomplished? You haven't changed anything, and you're giving yourself far too much credit if you think you've opened anyone's eyes.
    From what I can see, all you've done is to reinforce opinions that were established last time you got on your soapbox. When I saw that you had created a thread on this topic, my first thought was "here we go again" and I am not surprised.


    Quote

    And if all I had to do was 'present' my facts and be done with it.' What am I supposed to do when people make statements that don't apply? Ignore them and pretend they were never stated?


    Trust me, the truth doesn't need you to defend it. If your facts are so ironclad, they should stand for themselves.


    Sadly, your version of "the truth" doesn't stand in the light of the way things actually are.


    Quote

    I was quite touched and shocked when someone that I've never interacted with took the time and effort to write me a PM to voice their support of my opinions. They didn't have to do that by any means, and the fact they did makes this entire experience worth it despite the negativity of my detractors'.


    Ah, so that's the real reason? You don't care if nothing changes - you're doing this for the gratification of others telling you that you're right? And pardon me if I'm skeptical about all the support you've "privately" received - it would be better expressed openly if it's to accomplish anything.


    Here's ONE simple, indisputable fact: After 6 days of you carrying on about the issue, nothing has changed. Eloraam is no more willing to permit unauthorized add-ons, the climate of mod development has not changed, and you have not become the folk hero of the downtrodden mod user. Stop acting like she's being "mean" to players. If you don't like the way she runs things, don't use her mod. Anything else is pointless.


    All you're doing is tilting at a windmill - what's your point behind all of this? What do you honestly hope to accomplish?

    Perhaps, but I'm not operating under the notion that I can change the system. I'm merely trying to get him to see the futility of his effort.
    If we have anything in common, it's that we're both wasting our breath - mine on him, his on all of us.

    • Official Post
    Quote from HeadHunter67

    Perhaps, but I'm not operating under the notion that I can change the system. I'm merely trying to get him to see the futility of his effort.
    If we have anything in common, it's that we're both wasting our breath - mine on him, his on all of us.


    Question is, why do you claim he's trying to change the system by talking in an entirely irrelevant forum to an entirely irrelevant person (no offense intended)?
    If I would want to change Eloraams decision and wouldn't be in my current position (= dev of a mod that's Eloraam trying to stay compatible to), i would probably try to persuade as many people as possible. If everyone asks Eloraam to do X, not doing X could have bad PR effects :3


    Nontheless, didn't mean to interrupt your discussion, please proceed, i enjoy watching well-formed arguments. Proves the internet doesn't necessaryly turn every dispute into a flamewar.