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Neon64bit

Nuclear Reactor Control Systems Specialist

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1

Monday, January 21st 2013, 5:40am

Industrial Craft vs Universal Electricity

Just wondering, what do you guys think of Industrial Craft2 and Universal Electricity (with all of it's related mods)

I have been a dedicated follower of Industrial Craft(2) for sometime but I am starting to wonder if other Electric Tech Mods are becoming more creative and innovative.

Personally i like some of the ideas such as Atomic Science but I think that the coding and textures are a bit amateur.

(Please move this if it is in the wrong section.)
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wasmic

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Monday, January 21st 2013, 6:32am

I still think IC2 is better than UE, some of the concepts in UE addons are a bit... weird, especially in Mekanism. I don't like that the machines take tons of platinum, especially with GT installed. I don't like the magic thingies either. I seriously miss Hawk's machinery an Green technology.
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MatLaPatate

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Monday, January 21st 2013, 3:26pm

To me, there's just not enough featur in UE, compared to IC²: Quantum Armor, Miner, UUM, Upgrade modules ... and I quite like a lot of things in IC², which aren't in UE: Nuclear Reactor system, Crossbreeding ...
And I actually love GregTech ^^. Moreover, I don't want to criticize but ... obviously, some addons from UE are inspired by IC².

Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "MatLaPatate" (Jan 21st 2013, 9:13pm)


narc

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Monday, January 21st 2013, 5:43pm

UE is still young, and it's not being developed as one unique mod but as many interconnected ones. It's normal for quality to vary in these circumstances, but it'll improve, given enough time. The basic API is probably well-made, though I can't say anything for certain as I haven't looked at it myself.

As for "copying", that's a joke -- "inspired by" is the most you can say.

MatLaPatate

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Monday, January 21st 2013, 9:14pm

As for "copying", that's a joke -- "inspired by" is the most you can say.
Done. Of course what I meaned.

Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

BillJoehobo

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Monday, January 21st 2013, 10:14pm

The only two appealing items from UE is the ICBM, and the units (amps, volts, watts and joules vs. plain EU).

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 3:56am

They both have their merits.
UE Watts are designed to be more realistic, where as IC2 EU is simple and effective. UE has some very fun stuff in its net, where as IC2 as well, but they differ in how one goes about using them. UE is a API, where as IC2 is a Mod. There's where the difference lies. UE is designed to provide a realistic electricity system for modders to use. It was designed in the begging as a alternative to IC2 power due to the IC2 API EULA and Calclavica not wanting to agree to it's terms. So UE is mostly used by people wanting to not agree to the IC2 API EULA. It's a matter of taste to most modders, but to ones who read fine print and whatnot, UE is a somewhat better choice. Most IC2 addons are small, or not fit for inclusion into IC2 itself(Yay GregTech!), but if ICBM was built within the IC2 EULA, you could bet your 2 stacks of UUM that it would be in IC2 within one release.

But in a Nutshell, Hazelnut. In short, UE is not anything like IC2, because UE is just a API, something many people forget. One could use parts of UE in your own mod without much effort or even fuss. But IC2 is a big mod, with plenty of different aspects, some of which many people use(Nuclear Reactors), and some almost no one cares about(Crops, or scrap boxes). A good thing to note is one can't(assuming it hasn't changed since I last checked) use a Monetizing link for your IC2 addon, but one can do so just fine with a UE mod.

Things I enjoy with UE: ICBM, Atomic Science, BllastCraft(I like being able to see through my windows without worrying that they will break if a creeper shows up, and very few mods have such durable glass blocks), Power Suits(used it a bit before it was on the IC2 forums, loved it), and some parts of Mekinisim(mostly the powered bow. I need a energy weapon that isn't a mining laser).
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calclavia

Universal Electricity Modder

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 4:07am

They both have their merits.
UE Watts are designed to be more realistic, where as IC2 EU is simple and effective. UE has some very fun stuff in its net, where as IC2 as well, but they differ in how one goes about using them. UE is a API, where as IC2 is a Mod. There's where the difference lies. UE is designed to provide a realistic electricity system for modders to use. It was designed in the begging as a alternative to IC2 power due to the IC2 API EULA and Calclavica not wanting to agree to it's terms. So UE is mostly used by people wanting to not agree to the IC2 API EULA. It's a matter of taste to most modders, but to ones who read fine print and whatnot, UE is a somewhat better choice. Most IC2 addons are small, or not fit for inclusion into IC2 itself(Yay GregTech!), but if ICBM was built within the IC2 EULA, you could bet your 2 stacks of UUM that it would be in IC2 within one release.

But in a Nutshell, Hazelnut. In short, UE is not anything like IC2, because UE is just a API, something many people forget. One could use parts of UE in your own mod without much effort or even fuss. But IC2 is a big mod, with plenty of different aspects, some of which many people use(Nuclear Reactors), and some almost no one cares about(Crops, or scrap boxes). A good thing to note is one can't(assuming it hasn't changed since I last checked) use a Monetizing link for your IC2 addon, but one can do so just fine with a UE mod.

Things I enjoy with UE: ICBM, Atomic Science, BllastCraft(I like being able to see through my windows without worrying that they will break if a creeper shows up, and very few mods have such durable glass blocks), Power Suits(used it a bit before it was on the IC2 forums, loved it), and some parts of Mekinisim(mostly the powered bow. I need a energy weapon that isn't a mining laser).

That is not the MAIN reason I made UE, but one of the reasons. Main reason is, I didn't want to be dependent on IC2 or Buildcraft. The UE API allows you to integrate electricity in-game without the need to be dependent on anything. Also, I like realistic electrical units. :)
I have to admit, that our mods are more in-dev compared to IC2. That is because we have only been around for 7 months while IC2 was around for 2 years I think. Think of IC2 and UE as two separate systems with a different style. UE aims for realistic and block based (multiblock) game play while IC2 is more around gnome blocks (GUI based).
To me, there's just not enough featur in UE, compared to IC²: Quantum Armor, Miner, UUM, Upgrade modules ... and I quite like a lot of things in IC², which aren't in UE: Nuclear Reactor system, Crossbreeding ...
And I actually love GregTech ^^. Moreover, I don't want to criticize but ... obviously, some addons from UE are inspired by IC².

We have all the armory FYI in modular powesuits.

BillJoehobo

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 4:50am

The way all the UE mods use the same network is appealing too. If all the mods that use electricity (IC2, UE, RP, etc.) could use the same network, life would be easier for the user. But I know this probably will never happen, mostly due to pride of the mod authors.

narc

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 8:33am

I have to admit, that our mods are more in-dev compared to IC2. That is because we have only been around for 7 months while IC2 was around for 2 years I think.[...]
Here's a question: how coordinated is development in the UE mod-set? IC2 has (reasonable) consistency primarily because it was all designed centrally, whereas my impression of UE development is that most people just pick something they'd like to do and do it. There's nothing wrong with this approach, but it does mean it'll take some extra time for both devs and players to decide on what the best features are and how they should look.

The way all the UE mods use the same network is appealing too. If all the mods that use electricity (IC2, UE, RP, etc.) could use the same network, life would be easier for the user. But I know this probably will never happen, mostly due to pride of the mod authors.
Honestly, I'd say it's mostly because of inertia -- going back into something like Buildcraft and redesigning the energy system would take a fair amount of time and effort (look at Thermal Expansion's solution to the matter: implement their own energy conduits; I'm willing to bet that was not a rapid undertaking) and introduce a fair amount of new bugs that would need to be ironed out.

To be fair, Buildcraft may be a poor example, because the energy sent through BC power pipes is meant to be pneumatic energy rather than electric; I'm willing to accept that kinetically agitating redstone in a TE energy conductor or cell will charge it up with energy that can be released as from a flywheel, but not that watts and joules have any sense in there. Redpower would be a much better choice for the UE API, but I suspect Eloraam simply isn't interested: her energy network is something she likes tinkering with and I get the impression she's at least trained as an electrical engineer -- she's not likely to give up the joy of writing her own, and I honestly wouldn't want to ask her, either; I rather like what I've seen so far and wish to see it realized to its full potential.

11

Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 9:42am

I've not looked at any mods based on UE - I like to keep my (Minecraft) life simple so lump it with some of the more mainstream mods, but I've always thought it would be wonderful to have an electrical energy implementation a bit closer to real life - at least with the concepts of current and voltage, so you can trade the two of them off each other in terms of costs (run a low voltage, low current circuit for lighting at a cheap cost energy and resource-wise, but your mass fabricator needs 10kV and a thumping great 1000 amps of current.

It's a real shame of the differences between all the mods in our community - the implementations, the maturity, the user base and maybe sometimes the politics - all really hamper getting them to worth together. You then get bridging mods that look to cross the gap (often IC<->BC) which I'm thankful for, but have gotten bit in the past (Crossover mod sometimes lagged behind releases leaving me without an upgrade path until all of them came into line).

For now, I make do with IC2. While the actual implementation of energy is maybe simplistic compared to real life it's actually very user friendly, the tier system gives a degree of complexity to it to keep it interesting and relevant for the machines you want to drive and - mainly - IC2 has plenty of machines of some functional value!

12

Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 12:10pm

The way all the UE mods use the same network is appealing too. If all the mods that use electricity (IC2, UE, RP, etc.) could use the same network, life would be easier for the user. But I know this probably will never happen, mostly due to pride of the mod authors.

Well, I cannot speak for the other mod authors, but I prefer a simple, USEABLE and easy to understand energy system over a fully simulated electrotechnic-thingy. I mean, the energynet eats enough CPU as it is, even without working with different voltage levels, resistors, etcetc.

I would like to mention, btw, that I suggested, to both Eloraam and Spacetoad, a few months BEFORE UE came out, to agree on a common ground in regards to electricity. Only Eloram responded, negative, as she preferred her electric system (multiple parameters, realism-oriented) over my simplistic approach.

Still waiting for her to either implement a RP-IC converter (or to give permission for someone to do so) ^^'
Greetz,
Alblaka

GregoriusT

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 1:01pm

Still waiting for her to either implement a RP-IC converter (or to give permission for someone to do so) ^^'
Are you sure you want said Converter? No matter in which Direction you balance that Converter, it's either extremly underpowered for RP->IC²-Conversion, or massively overpowered for IC²->RP-Conversion, especially because Redpower has no need for Heavy-Duty Power Generation, unless you convert it into BC-MJ. There would need to be a giant Loss for IC²->RP-Conversion in comparsion to RP->IC²-Conversion, and with that it's not really worth to have it at all.

Just the result of my Calculations.
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SpwnX

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 1:34pm

Still waiting for her to either implement a RP-IC converter (or to give permission for someone to do so) ^^'
Are you sure you want said Converter? No matter in which Direction you balance that Converter, it's either extremly underpowered for RP->IC²-Conversion, or massively overpowered for IC²->RP-Conversion, especially because Redpower has no need for Heavy-Duty Power Generation, unless you convert it into BC-MJ. There would need to be a giant Loss for IC²->RP-Conversion in comparsion to RP->IC²-Conversion, and with that it's not really worth to have it at all.

Just the result of my Calculations.
It would be worth as some may not like Redpower Bluelectricity (or blutricity, call it whatever you want) generation systems. Personally i dislike the way redpower generates its own power.
I would certainly use IC² power into Redpower stuff if possible, also it would be a way to convert EU into MJ without the need of addons (although it would be EU -> Blu' -> MJ, with a considerable loss)

I would do the following if IC-RP converters become real :

IC² power generation system (easy to manage and efficient) ---> IC-RP converter -> Bluelectricity----> Redpower machinery
________________|_________________________________________________________|
________________|_________________________________________________________ \---> Bluelectric engine -> Buildcraft related machinery
________________ \----> IC² related machinery
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MatLaPatate

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 4:41pm

It would be worth as some may not like Redpower Bluelectricity (or blutricity, call it whatever you want) generation systems. Personally i dislike the way redpower generates its own power.
I agree with the fact some seems kinda useless. But Windmill are awesome, the only sad thing is I can't use it to generate IC² energy, so it's almost useless (excpet for BC things). The best would have been an addon of IC² implementing these windmills before RP2 but ... now it's released, and doing that will be considered as copying :/

As for UE vs IC², the fact is UE doesn't need that much energy (as RP2, because there isn't machine enough to consume it entirely), and IC² machines definitely looks more futuristic ^^.

Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

calclavia

Universal Electricity Modder

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 5:01pm

I have to admit, that our mods are more in-dev compared to IC2. That is because we have only been around for 7 months while IC2 was around for 2 years I think.[...]
Here's a question: how coordinated is development in the UE mod-set? IC2 has (reasonable) consistency primarily because it was all designed centrally, whereas my impression of UE development is that most people just pick something they'd like to do and do it. There's nothing wrong with this approach, but it does mean it'll take some extra time for both devs and players to decide on what the best features are and how they should look.

You can't think of Universal Electricity as a mod. It is an API. It is just that we, UE developers tend to work together as it helps speed up development and we formed this pack with all our mods inside of it called Voltz. In our team, each person works on their mod and they have all full rights over it. We talk about compatibility and make sure content does not overlap too much between modders. Our team is always open and anyone can mod for UE.

The way all the UE mods use the same network is appealing too. If all the mods that use electricity (IC2, UE, RP, etc.) could use the same network, life would be easier for the user. But I know this probably will never happen, mostly due to pride of the mod authors.

Well, I cannot speak for the other mod authors, but I prefer a simple, USEABLE and easy to understand energy system over a fully simulated electrotechnic-thingy. I mean, the energynet eats enough CPU as it is, even without working with different voltage levels, resistors, etcetc.

That was one reason why I made UE, and that was because there wasn't an open source realistic energy system out there. Everyone has their own taste for their mod, and I personally like my electricity to be realistic. :) Universal Electricity probably saved some mods from making their own energy system. The mod Mekanism used to have its own version of a half-properly-created energy system and after the author migrated with UE, we became one. I know the big mods will never yield their system for ours, but I made UE aimed at smaller mods who wants to use a realistic system but at the same time staying independent from any mod. Besides, if you look at what the Voltz pack is now, it is pretty much a bunch of small mods that works great together via this energy system which without UE they might have had their own systems.

aidancbrady

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Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 6:02pm

I still think IC2 is better than UE, some of the concepts in UE addons are a bit... weird, especially in Mekanism. I don't like that the machines take tons of platinum, especially with GT installed. I don't like the magic thingies either. I seriously miss Hawk's machinery an Green technology.
I happen to disagree with your opinion on Mekanism. Don't bias me as being the mod's author, but if you've used recent builds, you will notice nearly all content has been revamped to work excellently with the rest of the Universal Electricity mods. I don't think of IC2 as a competitor, I think of it almost a partner. Yes, a few of my machines are similar to IC2's, but this is most certainly not meant as a way of direct competition to Alblaka's mighty creation. Mekanism is meant as a way to have an IC2-like experience that cooperates with the rest of the UE mods and their content.

In the end, Mekanism serves as medium between IC2 and UE. Note that all my machinery and energy storage devices implement the IC2 E-net, as well as the BuildCraft power framework. The mod was, originally, only coded with IC2 in mind. Actually, UE came later as I discovered it's potential in today's modding community.

Thoughts on Universal Electricity as a whole

No, Universal Electricity is not meant as a way to ruin IC2 and take over all mods that feature some form of electricity integration. In the long run, it's meant as a way to unify the electricity network that many mods are starting to implement, and make it simpler for the user to understand and maintain. Contrary to popular belief, UE is not natively compatible with IC2 -- it's integration is a courtesy of Player's recent refactor of the E-net to make it event based, which I very much appreciate. I feel many people compare UE with BuildCraft and IC2 in the same way people compare Technic with major mods. We're not trying to take over. We're developing a simple way for other mods' electricity to work with others.

I'm thinking out loud here, feel free to contradict anything I say and discuss it. I highly respect IC2; I wouldn't have donated otherwise.

-aidancbrady
Sincerely,
0x00AB71E5

Thepowdertoy +Bleach

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Wednesday, January 23rd 2013, 11:43am

MinecraftCreeper
Are you sure you want said Converter? No matter in which Direction you balance that Converter, it's either extremly underpowered for RP->IC²-Conversion, or massively overpowered for IC²->RP-Conversion, especially because Redpower has no need for Heavy-Duty Power Generation, unless you convert it into BC-MJ. There would need to be a giant Loss for IC²->RP-Conversion in comparsion to RP->IC²-Conversion, and with that it's not really worth to have it at all.

Just the result of my Calculations.


Who cares if IC2 to RP2 converter is overpowered? I mean, there is no huge energy drain and you cannot mass fab with it, and the closest exploit is to run blulectric engine for extra fast quarry... One thing that RP2 lacks is a coal generator

Edit: This discussion will be more exciting if there is both Buildcraft owner (Spacetoad or Sengir) and RP2 owner (Eloraam) here.... :)


Dota 2 player at SEA server.

For me nothing is OP. It just a mod for fun and I'm playing it for fun. Unless it created items from nothing. Automining not included, neither do in case of self replicating machine. However GregTech is still good, so:

GregTech Documentation Task Force Needed!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Thepowdertoy +Bleach" (Jan 23rd 2013, 11:51am)


Wliu

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Wednesday, January 23rd 2013, 9:30pm

MinecraftCreeper *SNIP*
Edit: This discussion will be more exciting if there is both Buildcraft owner (Spacetoad or Sengir) and RP2 owner (Eloraam) here.... :)

Couldn't resist quoting you...sorry P: There is now a BuildCraft team, comprised of SirSengir, cpw, CovertJaguar, Pahimar, and others that have direct access to editing BuildCraft, along with the other ~7 billion who could make a pull request.

As for UE, I personally haven't tried it, since the first mod I ever tried was RailCraft, which told me it was a nice idea to install IC2 and BuildCraft...
hi~ :P

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Thursday, January 24th 2013, 7:46pm

To me, there's just not enough featur in UE, compared to IC²: Quantum Armor, Miner, UUM, Upgrade modules ... and I quite like a lot of things in IC², which aren't in UE: Nuclear Reactor system, Crossbreeding ...
And I actually love GregTech ^^. Moreover, I don't want to criticize but ... obviously, some addons from UE are inspired by IC².
Quantumsuits are already in it's own expansion, Modular Powersuits. Upgrade modules are in Electric Expansion, but only for energy devices. thankyou