Fuel Burn Time

1st Official Post

    With the addition of Semifluid Generators I feel that the burn time for several fuels needs to be adjusted.


    As far as I can tell, the burn times for some of the game's fuels are:
    Coal - 400
    Lava - 500
    BC Oil - 2000
    BC Fuel - 8000


    I realize that IC2 has no control over BC burn times, but to counter the incredibly high values that they have in comparison to coal and lava, perhaps other fuels should be raised for the sake of balance?
    I suggest coal goes to 500 and lava to 1000, that way they are a bit more on-par with the power of the BC fuels.
    Is this a possible improvement? Does it bring up any issues that I have overlooked? What do you guys think?

    • Official Post
    Quote from Blaster

    Last time I checked, the Semifluids generator was a part of Greg Tech and not IC2.


    As of Experimental it does. @Above, yes this is the correct place since Experimental is latest and EVERYTHING (bug reports, suggestions ect) should always be for the latest version.
    I do think Coal (not charcoal though, that should be nerfed >:D ) should be buffed because it is an annoying resource you mine out of the ground and its only use is carbon plates and torches. Would be nice seeing people power their main machines off of a coal fired plant instead of the same old lava or BC/forestry fuel.

    Quote from SirusKing


    As of Experimental it does. @Above, yes this is the correct place since Experimental is latest and EVERYTHING (bug reports, suggestions ect) should always be for the latest version.
    I do think Coal (not charcoal though, that should be nerfed >:D ) should be buffed because it is an annoying resource you mine out of the ground and its only use is carbon plates and torches. Would be nice seeing people power their main machines off of a coal fired plant instead of the same old lava or BC/forestry fuel.

    I was thinking lava in the geothermal generators needed to be buffed more than anything. Compared to BC Oil and Fuel, it is simply pathetic. Lava has a burn time of 500 at a rate of 20 EU/t, making 10k EU. Oil burns for 2000 at a rate of 8 EU/t, making 16k EU total. And fuel burns for 8000 at a rate of 32EU/t for an astounding 128k EU! Either lava should be buffed, or Fuel nerfed.

    I'm not sure how you calculate burn rate, but I know the heat values. You can compare the heat values to each other, to make a direct comparison.


    This is taken from the Railcraft wiki, which I'm pretty sure is accurate BEFORE the recent changes (fuel and ethanol were reduced by 75%):


    Fuel Values
    Solid

    • Nearly anything that burns in a Furnace may be used to feed a Solid Fuel Firebox.
    • Bucket of Lava = 1000
    • Charcoal = 1600
    • Forestry Peat = 2000
    • Coal = 3200
    • Coal Coke = 6400


    Liquid

    • Lava is not a valid liquid fuel, this is intentional.
    • Creosote Oil = 4800
    • Forestry Bio-Fuel = 32000
    • BuildCraft Fuel = 96000
    Quote from vonfrank

    I was thinking lava in the geothermal generators needed to be buffed more than anything. Compared to BC Oil and Fuel, it is simply pathetic. Lava has a burn time of 500 at a rate of 20 EU/t, making 10k EU. Oil burns for 2000 at a rate of 8 EU/t, making 16k EU total. And fuel burns for 8000 at a rate of 32EU/t for an astounding 128k EU! Either lava should be buffed, or Fuel nerfed.


    Fuel must be nerfed. Buff lava? No way.


    Remember in IC² Classic/LF, which was just Geothermal Spam?

    wiki lol, wiki in most cases filled by noobs with lots of spare time, all semifluid values defined by IC2e itself, configuration externalized to config.


    public static int energyGeneratorSemiOil = 8;
    public static int energyGeneratorSemiFuel = 32;
    public static int energyGeneratorSemiBiomass = 8;
    public static int energyGeneratorSemiBioethanol = 16;


    calculation rules ARE 10 units of OIL will give 8 energy, that means 1000 units of oil gives 800 energy, energy given per tick

    Wow, this thread is just all over the place.


    @ vonfrank: Lava used to burn for 1000 ticks. It was nerfed because it's an unlimited, easy to procure fuel. It's easier to get than coal or charcoal. 10k EU per bucket is quite good enough. Also, compared to what oil and fuel (used to) give in terms of MJ, the semifluid generator is/was actually extremely underpowered.


    @ mustangdood: These values are Railcraft specific and have nothing to do whatsoever with any other mod. Also you posted outdated values.


    @ Everyone: Burn values are currently undergoing a massive rebalance across several mods. IC2, Buildcraft, Railcraft and Forestry are cooperating on this. A lot of fuel values are coming down, both for solids and for liquids.


    And surprisingly enough, lava did burn for 10k EU back in IC² version 1.23. They buffed it in version 1.337 along with Generators because everybody was spamming solars (which got nerfed that version).


    Maybe a full return would be too much... how about 12k EU or 15k EU instead? And for 1000 ticks.

    Yep, absolutely. Without proper documentation, everyone speculates based on the bits and pieces of information we can find, which as you pointed out can be stale.


    Having all of those mods working cooperatively to balance should be a successful approach. I say "should", because the first hint of balance (fuel and ethanol heat values) was very shortsighted.

    • Official Post

    Lava is a bad fuel game play wise, it's so easy to automatically get from the nether in practically unlimited quantities through various transport mechanisms that it eliminates energy as one cost component to a large degree. From a physics point of view the energy lava contains is just its heat compared to obsidian, so geothermals should probably just convert lava+cooling (water?) to obsidian and a small amount of energy from the heat differential.


    The semi fluid generator uses fuel values which we considered to be reasonable and are fairly close to the Forestry bio generator or other low end energy producers.


    BC fuel values changed to get closer to their originally intended ones and being more in line with solid fuel. The RC boiler is intended to be significantly more efficient than using the fuel directly in engines/generators, but not by a huge amount.
    Being able to run your whole late game setup from just a fairly small tree farm or small amounts of oil and therefore being the by far best energy source is not what we're looking for. You'd have to think quite long term to have a benefit from large scale, fail safe and zero maintenance options like solars, wind or rtgs considering their huge initial cost.

    Quote from Player

    Lava is a bad fuel game play wise, it's so easy to automatically get from the nether in practically unlimited quantities through various transport mechanisms that it eliminates energy as one cost component to a large degree. From a physics point of view the energy lava contains is just its heat compared to obsidian, so geothermals should probably just convert lava+cooling (water?) to obsidian and a small amount of energy from the heat differential.


    The semi fluid generator uses fuel values which we considered to be reasonable and are fairly close to the Forestry bio generator or other low end energy producers.


    BC fuel values changed to get closer to their originally intended ones and being more in line with solid fuel. The RC boiler is intended to be significantly more efficient than using the fuel directly in engines/generators, but not by a huge amount.
    Being able to run your whole late game setup from just a fairly small tree farm or small amounts of oil and therefore being the by far best energy source is not what we're looking for. You'd have to think quite long term to have a benefit from large scale, fail safe and zero maintenance options like solars, wind or rtgs considering their huge initial cost.

    I appreciate you sharing the thought process. This makes sense to me, I'm always in favor of balance.


    I always use a combination of energy sources, including boilers, SFG, nuclear, geo, and wind. I'm not a fan of the water, it would be great to see something new with water mills.


    The only thorny part with the new heat values in Railcraft, is how incredibly hard it would be to heat up a high pressure boiler. I'll wait for someone to make the "electric heater" mod. :P

    Did you know that Raiclraft recently - in the release before the fuel nerf in fact - added an item, found in the nether, that has no other purpose but to heat up boilers really quickly? ;)

    Quote from Omicron


    Did you know that Raiclraft recently - in the release before the fuel nerf in fact - added an item, found in the nether, that has no other purpose but to heat up boilers really quickly?


    So that's what Firestone is for.


    I thought it was a fancy flint and steel that could be used to obsidianize lava.

    Quote from Omicron

    Did you know that Raiclraft recently - in the release before the fuel nerf in fact - added an item, found in the nether, that has no other purpose but to heat up boilers really quickly? ;)

    Ahhh, no kidding? I will definately look into that. :whistling:

    You apparently throw it into lava to "charge" it.


    My biggest question on the thing so far is "does it work with liquid boilers". Since well, it kind of comes across as a solid item...


    To the test world!



    EDIT: nope, doesn't work on liquid boilers. It's also a freaking pain in the arse to refine, requiring a rock crusher (no, other macerator type machines don't work) and four diamond pickaxes. Not impressed. Well, at least the heatup speed when using it is pretty incredible.

    Yeah, that's not good. I looked around the Nether for about 45 minutes, and couldn't find a single block. I previously hadn't explored very fall at all, so I'm positive I generated new chunks. I'm wondering if the ore is actually spawning naturally?


    As far as heating up a boiler with Ethanol, that's pretty crazy. I prefer to use the largest size high pressure boilers, so they run easier long term. It takes ages to make that much ethanol!

    Quote from mustangdood

    Yeah, that's not good. I looked around the Nether for about 45 minutes, and couldn't find a single block. I previously hadn't explored very fall at all, so I'm positive I generated new chunks. I'm wondering if the ore is actually spawning naturally?


    As far as heating up a boiler with Ethanol, that's pretty crazy. I prefer to use the largest size high pressure boilers, so they run easier long term. It takes ages to make that much ethanol!


    start with an full size LP boiler as it will consume far less than an HP boiler in both heat up and while working to get started on your ethanol production. I managed to get going quickly and I will have to expand my production once I get to 1.6.4 (from 1.4.7), I'm going to need a LOT more stills....wish they moved faster...I currently have 5 stills going near full speed all the time due to the 3 tree farms I have going. I will prob get an increase when I get to 1.6.4 due to the walnut tree farm saplings being average on the sappiness, and that will take more than 5 stills to keep up with the biomass production.