Randomized (deterministic) energy capacity acquired through discovery!

8749236 · Feb 13th 2015

Yes! Randomized(deterministic)!

* Okay, everything in short!

Make a function that takes something as input and generates 4 numbers that belongs to an item, that can be filled into energy storing items/blocks, which will determines how energy storing item/block behaves so that players can invent new materials which allow them to store more energy in limited space. THE END.

* Everything in long!

I am learning hash table in CSCB63...

My teacher described hash function as a beast that takes in anything and spit out some number in fixed range...

I ring a bell - Lets tame that beast so that it takes something and spit out 4 numbers that are in fixed range...
Make energy storing items and blocks works according to those 4 numbers, those 4 numbers are:
- efficiency (ratio of energy that are lost when storing into it)
- capacity (yes! how much energy it can store)
- discharge rate (how fast energy is released)
- degrade factor (some random number to be feed into another beast that wiil changes those 4 numbers per every single EU charged or released)

That will be battery fillings, or battery acids, or whatever you like to call it...
Basically, they will be the stuffs that is stored in battery, that is used to store energy.

It is good because: it is randomized!
You can make discovery: "this combination works! because it has high efficiency! high capacity! high discharge rate! low degrade factor!"
Then someone else may claim: "mine works better!.. because blah!"
(So, Material physics-ish)

This idea is good because:
- It destroys deterministic property of IC2 gameplay! (If you know how to use it)
- Yeah, that is the only one I can think of...

But, by that way, you no longer needs to keep enlarging energy storage capacity for some device because some players needs it, or games mechanics needs it...
Just let them discover a way to get those 4 numbers bigger....

*** Now! What is BAD? ***

- Re-work for energy storage system
- New energy storage system is much more complicated, so development time is long. (But it is not hard except the beast function)
- Energy storage blocks needs to be changed
- Needs dedicated blocks and items to make this idea works
- Extra art, and art takes time.. A LOT OF TIME...

*** THE END ***

Now, some of my random words:

Please make an option so that blue prints are not universal across all server...

PS: This is just a quick idea... I am bit burnt out right now..

blub01 · Feb 13th 2015

this sounds cool, but maybe something like "storage casings" with different tiers could be added, which take the energy storage items, but they are limited in efficiency and discharge rate (and maybe degrade dactor?) due to the wire you use to get energy out of them, basically tier 1: tin wire, efficiency equals cable loss of tin wire when energy losses get reimplemented, discharge rate 32 eu/tick, tier 2 would use copper wire and would have an efficiency that equals the currently not existing cable loss of copper wire, a discharge rate of 128eu/tick(MV), tier 3 would use gold wire, and so on up to glassfibre cable. Another idea would be to make "storage casing" where you can insert both wire and storage mediium, and would otherwise be the same.

Chocohead · Feb 13th 2015

Quote from 8749236

Please make an option so that blue prints are not universal across all server

What blueprints?

blub01 · Feb 13th 2015

i guess he didn't write his suggestion down completely, but referred to a non-posted part of it in his post. i think he suggests some kind of storage medium item which is created by mixing several possible materials for several components(maybe depending of the way the medium stores energy), like being able to combine nickel and cadmium into a battery, but also all the other things you can use to make batteries i don't remember right now, not necessarily in the combinations used in RL, and every choice impacts the performance of the medium somehow(it might end up with either 3 or 4 components with this "hash-function" thingy, 3 if you can make different ways of storing energy(like batteries and flywheels), that would use one of the 4 values to determine the way of storing the energy.

Chocohead · Feb 13th 2015

What he's describing sounds a lot like Tinkers Construct for batteries.

blub01 · Feb 13th 2015

well, the idea behind TConstruc is (in my opinion) not bad, only the way it is done in TConstruct is OP. and if you add the seed of the world to the hash function, you can make it different for every world so that you actually have to do some real research, which would be kinda cool in my opinion.

8749236 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from blub01

i guess he didn't write his suggestion down completely, but referred to a non-posted part of it in his post. i think he suggests some kind of storage medium item which is created by mixing several possible materials for several components(maybe depending of the way the medium stores energy), like being able to combine nickel and cadmium into a battery, but also all the other things you can use to make batteries i don't remember right now, not necessarily in the combinations used in RL, and every choice impacts the performance of the medium somehow(it might end up with either 3 or 4 components with this "hash-function" thingy, 3 if you can make different ways of storing energy(like batteries and flywheels), that would use one of the 4 values to determine the way of storing the energy.

Yes, I didn't write down complete idea..
Even whatever is there is kinda messy since I got overwhelmed by the idea of "using hash function to create some random value so everything get randomized"

Let me try to clarify a bit..

There are some raw materials in game, say iron, carbon fibre, acids and so on
There are machines to process them (order of processing matters) to give them different properties (which are hidden from user; or can be viewed through some way)
There is another machines that put processed materials together, to produce storage medium with different properties; a blueprint for that storage medium is produced as well
There will be new machine that takes 2 input: blueprint of storage medium, raw materials. Outputs: storage medium
There will be a new machine for crafting items that can store energy; which will needs storage medium along with other raw materials.
Energy storage item with different storage medium will have different capacity, different discharge rate, different life-span and different degradation factor

To achieve that, I proposed: Lets use a hash function, or a set of hash function which takes some information and returns 4 different values in a fixed range (to prevent overpower problem)
The "some information" is to be determined... Maybe is how items are aligned, or maybe there are random hidden properties stored along with those random items..

And I am doing this because I would like to increase play time of IC2 while ensures gaming experience.
Because, IMHO, simply making everything harder to do will surely ruins gaming experience

*** Add ***

I just checked tinker construct..
And yes, it is very similar to tinker construct..
But the difference is, rather than hard code how ABCD behaves.
Games will calculate how they behaves according to some algorithm (I proposed to use hash function, which maps from some space to 4 natural numbers)
Thus, we can do some research, like how blub called it. (I like it!

Similar idea can be applied to nano tech or quantum tech..
Where randomness are needed..

*** Add ***

Quote

but maybe something like "storage casings" with different tiers could be added

The basic idea here is to get rid of hardcoded-tiering
Make tiering more dynamic... let game rate a tier for every single thing you have discovered..

Chocohead · Feb 14th 2015

What you're describing doesn't sound that fun at all, it's basically IC2's Crop breeding mechanic but for batteries. The horrible randomness sounds even more frustrating than outright hardness gameplay wise.

8749236 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from Chocohead

What you're describing doesn't sound that fun at all, it's basically IC2's Crop breeding mechanic but for batteries.

Yes, you can put it in that way if you like.

Quote from Chocohead

The horrible randomness sounds even more frustrating than outright hardness gameplay wise.

Uh... Please describe the frustration?
If you simply means the blue prints are not universal thingy is frustrating; I did mention that one should be optional..
Also, it is really not random..
To players, it seems random, but there are trends.. if it is totally random, then it is meaning less to add such system..
It would be much simpler to just roll a random capacity whenever energy storage item or block is created/placed..

blub01 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from Chocohead

What you're describing doesn't sound that fun at all, it's basically IC2's Crop breeding mechanic but for batteries. The horrible randomness sounds even more frustrating than outright hardness gameplay wise.

it is totally NOT like ic² cropbreeding, cropbreeding gets you a random result every time you breed, this is(in one world, anyway) with the same components always the same, so one combination in one world gets always the same storage medium quality.

Quote from 8749236

Quoted

but maybe something like "storage casings" with different tiers could be added

The basic idea here is to get rid of hardcoded-tiering

Make tiering more dynamic... let game rate a tier for every single thing you have discovered..

Display More

that#s what i meant, sorry if that was unclear.

8749236 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from blub01

it is totally NOT like ic² cropbreeding, cropbreeding gets you a random result every time you breed, this is(in one world, anyway) with the same components always the same, so one combination in one world gets always the same storage medium quality.

And that one is optional..
Players who hosts Server have option to set a key so that there server will be universal with other server..
(Just like seed used for map generation)

*** Add ***
If this will be implemented, I suggests that storage medium carries 4 values: capacity, discharge rate, efficiency and degradation factor
(Maybe we can add a charge rate? So we can have stuff that charge extremely fast but discharges awfully slow)
So game does not have to evaluate how mediums behaves every time (and they will not be affected by changing seeds as down side.. or a feature if you like)

I suggests use vanilla minecraft and IC2 items for storage medium composition, for simplicity.
Because people will get lost if the player side of this whole system gets too complicated. (We can make a complicated system that is very easy and intuitive for users, this has been done in many games; Heart of Iron III has the most complicated but user friendly system I have ever seen)

Chocohead · Feb 14th 2015

That's self defeating. Either you have it completely random or not random at all. Being able to change it won't make people bother trying to experiment with something when it's not even necessary.

8749236 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from Chocohead

That's self defeating. Either you have it completely random or not random at all. Being able to change it won't make people bother trying to experiment with something when it's not even necessary.

The whole concept of random is the fact:
"We know something is determining its behavious, but we don't know what it is! So we will assume it is random"

That is the random we are talking about.
If you are keep thinking that everything must be explicitly stated as a rule or something, then it is impossible to talk about anything big. Because, you can't describe infinitely many stuffs with finite rules and finite space

*** Add ***

Don't think from programmer perspective yet..
Just pretend that you are a player who has no idea what programming is!..

*** Add ***

Quote

Being able to change it won't make people bother trying to
experiment with something when it's not even necessary.

This system will be useless if there are existing blocks and items with fixed capacity and other specs in the way...
So, my recommendation is to make the spec of those blocks and items depends on this new system as well..
So, it will be necessary to do some research...

Since seed remains the same per client (or per server).
So, there blue prints will be universal across player's map...
And since there will be a DEFAULT seed...
therefore, blue prints will be universal to some degree..
Also some server, say PVP server, may like to negate the advantage of universal blueprints to prevent op items and encourage research or looting blueprints

Chocohead · Feb 14th 2015

Fine, a player could spend hours and lots of resources in their survival mode world to get what they want. Or, duplicate the world and test it in creative, to know exactly what they want, thus not spending anything more than time doing so. Or, not bother at all, as they see no benefit in doing it over what is already there.

That is what a player would do.

8749236 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from Chocohead

That's self defeating. Either you have it completely random or not random at all. Being able to change it won't make people bother trying to experiment with something when it's not even necessary.

Quote from Chocohead

Fine, a player could spend hours and lots of resources in their survival mode world to get what they want. Or, duplicate the world and test it in creative, to know exactly what they want, thus not spending anything more than time doing so. Or, not bother at all, as they see no benefit in doing it over what is already there.

That is what a player would do.

If that is the way they do it, we can't stop it.
Literally, even if we came up with various brilliant ideas. You can just simply smash that words at them so you can ruins everything single ideas.
What is the point of that?
If players would like to spoil their own fun, should we stop it?

Chocohead · Feb 14th 2015

The difference is what you describe would be a lot of coding work for people not to use. Especially when dev time is precious with how busy everyone is, and how much still needs fixing that's already in.

8749236 · Feb 14th 2015

Quote from Chocohead

The difference is what you describe would be a lot of coding work for people not to use. Especially when dev time is precious with how busy everyone is, and how much still needs fixing that's already in.

And the difference between this and that is that
DEV are forcing people to use what they want them to use, which makes IC2 not fun anymore...
Also, if you really want to avoid "lot of coding work for people not to use", there shouldnt be any programming..
Because in what ever way, people will find a way that all your hard work become useless...
Say: creative mode...
Yeah! you can get whatever you want in creative mode.. mostly... why install IC2? why install random mod that only add items but not features?
Like I said: if someone like to spoil their own fun, just let them do it!

keybounce · Feb 14th 2015

I don't know.

If I did not have a wiki telling me exactly what to cross-breed with what to get what, I probably would not bother with bees and trees. The idea of "I'll get something every time" means that I never have to worry about "failure, failure, failure, failure, gee, I wish a had a clue, faulure, fauilure, failure, ...".

Knowing that every combination gives me something, and I can look at the resultant numbers, mean that I'll get something "good enough" eventually.

Think of vanilla horse breeding. There's randomness. But even without a WAILA plug-in to tell me what the numbers are, I can test the speed with a redstone track, I can test the height of jump with some snow layers, and I know I can breed the higher numbers for potentially higher children. And repeat with donkeys. Cross for mules, now I have good quality movement and storage.

Quote

Fine, a player could spend hours and lots of resources in their survival mode world to get what they want

You mean, like they do now with bees, trees, flowers, etc; with horses, donkeys, mules; etc? Those are what I know of; this is just more of the same.

If there's some underlying order -- some sense of "the output numbers depend on the input numbers" -- something for players to work with as "we're learning what works/does not work", then great.

Otherwise, sure, you're having to play real-world "inventor" (really, tester), trying object after object after object ... something has to polarize the light (hey, a mirror), or twist the polarized light (... failed optical glass).

Chocohead · Feb 14th 2015

I like IC2, it hasn't stopped being fun, which I think is where our core differences lay.

IC2 has a linear progression, you must do things to achieve other things. It has always been like this. Thermal Expansion, Extra Utilities, MFR etc. have no progression, you can go from A -> Z without doing most of the other letters, including not starting out with A to get to the end goal. There's nothing about the devs forcing people to do anything, merely stick to the tech tree, which most modern mods just don't have. IC2 doesn't fit with a random, isn't necessary, jump stages feature (partly the reason crops never worked out), and what you're suggesting fits directly into this. IC2 is not TE or MFR, you have to make certain things to progress, and that's that. Nothing modular that lets you skip bits, nothing there just to undercut some other mod's feature, just a somewhat flexible tech tree that you must follow in order to get to the "end".

blub01 · Feb 14th 2015

If this suggestion breaks tech tree progression depends solely on details. if you need some machines to get better components, then you can adapt it prefectly to the tech tree, but you still don't always have the same capabilities. I am getting the impression that you just don't want to really think about this, Chocohead

Share