Energy Net improvements

Quote from Chocohead

Notice how all the mods you listed used to use MJ. Apart from the Thermal series which isn't really balanced at all, it just adds 80 RF/t generators which compare to Buildcraft's 10 RF/t for the same fuel. EU really couldn't be broken like that simply as there isn't the same massive power draw you'd ever need that much power for. The old E-net also made large amounts of power awkward, so that's probably why it never happened.

RF is just an evolution/simplification of MJ when MJ started implementing 'features' that Lemming didn't care for. For all intents and purposes, it's basically MJ 2.0.

As for balance, the Thermal series is very well balanced within itself. Remember as that it's RF instead of MJ that the Thermal Series is the one setting the base 'balance', not Buildcraft. It has well paired energy creation to energy consumption within itself. And yes, they may create more RF/t than Buildcraft/Railcraft/Forestry engines, but IIRC the energy for the same amount of fuel is on par between them.

And EU still *could* be broken like that if someone chose to create a mod like BR. You say it can't happen because there isn't a massive power draw that you need that much power for ... but look at the Thermal Series and the Buildcraft/Railcraft/Forestry trio. *None* of those have *anything* that requires such an immense amount of power. That's why none of them have engines/dynamos that make that much power. The problem is created entirely by external mods that don't respect the balance set by the 'base' mods. EU is as vulnerable to that as RF is. The only reason we don't see it now, I think, is that so few people actually *play* IC2 these days that there just isn't the desire to create mods or add-ons for it outside of those that already like and play IC2 and, thus, are more likely to respect it's inherent balance.

I think 80 RF/t baseline is quite nice, actually. The machines all require the same amount of power so the base energy rate of the dynamos is matched so you don't need to spam more dynamos just to power machines with 'lower end' energy sources. Remember that the amount of energy contained by the fuels is the same between each, so TE isn't making more energy, just lowering the amount of 'engine/dynamo spam'. And lowering machine spam/raising performance is sorta part of Lemming's schtick.

And again, EU can be broken in the *exact same way* as RF is broken. Yes, you always need IC2 in the mix ... but what RF pack *doesn't* have TE in it? The biggest difference is that IC2 already has 'endgame' fast energy gen in the form of nuclear reactors, something that TE doesn't have. But IC2 also has consumers for such a high amount of energy. The Thermal Series does not, thus had no need to create such 'advanced' energy generation.

So long as the IC2 API allows other mods to generate EU then EU is *just* as open to being broken as RF is.

Quote from Speiger

No the reason why MJ died out was because MJ 2.0 had a critical problem which the dev did not take care of fast enough.
And i think Lemming saw that and used it as step assist.

The main problem that MJ had was that it was really hard to support because of the way how the dev team shut it of. Well that was going the wrong way.
As it turned out that the dev team will not change the MJ api and TE3 came out and gave an better option to add power into machines, the simply jumped over... ^^"

Actually, IIRC, the reason MJ died out is that RF offered a friendlier alternative to MJ that the community embraced. And RF only came into existence because one of the BC devs, Covert, I think, made the 'perdition' mechanic hardwired into the MJ API and removed all non-hacky ways to subvert it. As Lemming didn't like the mechanic but respected MJ he chose to split off from it peacefully and created RF for TE.

Quote from Chocohead

Extra Utilities and EnderIO both reck TE's balance and allow you to skirt around them. Nothing does that to the IC2 macerator for example (that uses EU). No one would break IC2's power balance as the macerator using 2EU/t is already really small, as it's impossible to skirt around making a generator which gives you 10 EU/t right at the start. An addon wouldn't fit in with IC2 if it tried to break that, while with RF mods it's almost expected.

I can't speak for EnderIO as I don't play it for a multitude of reasons, both aesthetics and balance related.

As for XU, if you're talking about the x8 generator, then they aren't *that* broken but are probably unnecessary. If you're talking about the x64 generators, then yes they are absurd and more than unneeded. But you know what they remind me of? Compact/Advanced Solars and the windmill variants. Mostly because they do the exact same thing. All they are is 'compressed' versions of the base energy gen that require eight of the previous level and function as eight of the previous level. I hold that the x8 and x64 generators are no more broken than Compact/Advanced Solars. Note that I do consider Compact/Advanced Solars broken and refuse to use them because I feel that they trivialize power gen. Been there, done that. For the same reason I disable XU's x64 generators, and sometimes the x8 as well, though at least *they* still require automation.

You say that noone would break IC2's power balance, but that is pure opinion. So long as the API enables energy generation outside of IC2 then people can break the balance. Will it fit in? No. But honestly they don't fit in too well in the RF environment either.

But I think we're getting wildly off topic.

Quote from Chocohead

The main issue with the XU gens is that they're so cheap yet output the same as a dynamo (or more). The pink generator for example just outputs energy based on whether it has pink in the name (pink cobble anyone?). IC2's reclusiveness of late probably wouldn't have made a difference, because it's RF being designed to be flexible and widely used allows it to be widely abused, unlike EU.

The thing about all the generators that have TE/BC equivalents is that they (mostly) give the same energy per unit *as* their equivalents. The two exceptions are the survivalist generator, which gives more energy, but at a slower rate than even BC engines, and the high-temp gen, which gives more if you let it heat up. Both make sense to me. The former is designed for making the most of little and is designed exclusively for early game (and thus shouldn't have x8 or x64 versions at all, IMHO) and the latter has a similar 'always on bonus' principle to RC's boilers. I should note that x8 and x64 versions of the high-temp furnace go through a truly prodigious amount of fuel in a startlingly short amount of time. As for the cost of them? I honestly haven't looked. I *like* my boilers, dynamos, and engines, thankyouverymuch. Plus I could never stand the aesthetics of the x1 generators.

And don't really count the pink generator as anything serious. It's a sorta joke/gift generator made for Aureylian, IIRC.

Quote from Speiger

Nope not really. With 512 Solar pannels you used Tincables they had the same powerloss as the exensive diamond cable. And if you made it right you were able to place 512 solar pannels withoit any powerloss...

Yup! "Solar Flowers" I think people called them. Make a giant field of them with the right cables and you had little, if any, loss.

Quote from Speiger

Well poweloss happens only if you reach more then 50 blocks^^" (With tin cables)

And intelligently group and route them into Batboxes within that 50 block limit, then transition to other cabling from there, eventually ending in glass fiber cables and occasional repeater transformers or MFEs/MFSUs.

But this only matters when you're playing IC2 Classic with it's completed e-net.