Discussion about conversion mods.

Quote from Saul_Goode

1) - Her permission; Is kind of in violation with the ideals of the game.

It is her work, and hers to do with as she sees fit. Perhaps you would be fine with letting everyone else use your code as they see fit, but then again, perhaps you wouldn't.
I don't know - as far as I know, you don't have any mods for Minecraft so it's hypothetical.

Quote

My game. My way.

You're free to write your own mod that does the same sort of thing. As far as I can tell, there's not even anything stopping you from changing the existing mod for your own use - if you didn't distribute it, you might have a point there.

Quote

Future plans are fine... for the future. But in the here and now, what's the harm?

Version control and consistency are the primary considerations. A few days ago, we watched someone waste his time making a "1.1-compatible" version of IC (and BuildCraft) here. Great for the impatient few who have to have it "now"... until the official version releases, and it's not compatible anyways. Then all that time they spent is wasted anyhow.

Quote

Furthermore, Eloraam's future plans can make this sub-mod obsolete when those plans become 'New Features'. Who want's to install an additional sub-mod to do something that's contained in the mod?

Why would anyone want to waste their time writing a mod that they know will become obsolete because the idea is already in the official design process?
Ask Jorge what he thinks of FC making his IC<->BTW dynamo add-on obsolete. Then ask him if he'd have made the mod anyways, if he knew FC would change BTW to no longer be compatible with IC2.

Quote

What if, I dunno.... say, Alblaka denies permission to convert into IC2 compatible EU's? Not saying he would, but what if....? Alblaka would in essence be doing the same thing to Eloraam as she is doing to immibis

Well, then... you and she would have to accept that, wouldn't you? Do you think she made plans for such a conversion without talking to Alblaka first?

Quote

I don't feel as though Eloraam is playing fair. She will 'borrow' ideas for her own mod, but has a strict 'Hand's-Off' policy for others looking to work with her mod.

As my friend SOTMead has observed, there is a big difference between ideas and implementation. Ideas are meaningless here - it's how they are implemented that matters. The best implementation should naturally prevail.

You, however, seem to be confusing ideas with intellectual property. She may do something similar to what others have done, but she does it her own way - she writes her own code, she doesn't hack someone else's and release without permission.

Quote

Eloraam needs to not be quite so... hypocritical, I guess. She makes her own 'tube' system. Her own 'energy' system.

Emphasis on "her own". She didn't make an add-on that borrowed someone else's energy or tubes without their permission. If you want a fair comparison, imagine if Redpower just used BC pipes and IC EU's... and without SpaceToad or Alblaka's approval. That would make it a proper comparison... but that's not what it's like.

Also, these developers are all part of the Forge team, and have committed to the mutual platform that allows interoperability of their mods. Add-on developers are not part of that compact and nothing gives them the right to hack the code for their own purposes.

When someone misuses your own efforts and property without your permission, then you'll begin to understand what it's like to be in her shoes.

Here's the great thing about the situation: Most of her material is module.. Meaning that you aren't 'required' to actually install these aspects into RP2 to enjoy. However, that neither helps nor solves the problem, and if you become dependent on said features (aka: Frames), then this problem becomes even more of a hassle..

Personally, I think she's being too much of a bitch about the issue (pun intended), yet she is allowed to do this. However, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to outsource those types of features from other mods, and circumvent her influence in my game play. Currently, I don't use Silver for anything RP related. Hell, I would even bother farming for the ore if it wasn't for the fact that you can use it in both Thaumcraft and IC. Eloraam will, either one way or another, have to come to terms with the fact that her mod design WILL be altered heavily as long as she continues with this compatibility with the Forge API system...

That is, ofc, if she doesn't go the way of Flowerchild with mod design...

I was thinking similarly this morning. Here's what gets me, though:

Quote from Saul_Goode

2) - Her future plans; Future plans are fine... for the future.

3) - quote;eloraam "... I have my own plans in mind for that."

How was the person who made this mod-for-a-mod supposed to know of upcoming features and functions? As I was under the impression that upcoming features and functionality were (usually) kept secret, partly for excitement for fans and users of the mod, partly to avoid idea stealing. *shrug*

Quote from _Tim_

I was thinking similarly this morning. Here's what gets me, though:

How was the person who made this mod-for-a-mod supposed to know of upcoming features and functions? As I was under the impression that upcoming features and functionality were (usually) kept secret, partly for excitement for fans and users of the mod, partly to avoid idea stealing. *shrug*

Nope, Elooram usually talks about her future plans in her blog and twitter account, maybe in the minecraft forum as well. And i remember reading somewhere in those about her plans of implementing her own EU Converters.

If you are lazy to do a basic search on the topic then shame on you.

Quote from Saul_Goode

Not her work. immibis's work that hooks into her work. Into Alblaka's work. Same way her work hooks into Mojang's work.

Immibis' code is useless without Eloraam's code. He's even explicitly admittied that he had to decompile her code to make it.
The difference between modding her work and modding Mojang's, is that Mojang gives permission to do so. Alblaka has prohibited certain uses of his code - look no further than the abortive "1.1 update" someone tried to release the other day.

Quote

Version control and consistency? How does that apply to Eloraam requesting the takedown of a sub-mod that will one day be made obsolete by the mod itself?

I've already explained that. It's one thing to make an add-on that may be depreciated by an official development - it's another thing to make a mod that one knows will be obsoleted soon enough. Eloraam has already stated that she intends to implement BT<->EU transfer in the near future, and anything she hasn't said on the matter is due to confidentaility between her and Alblaka.

Quote

maybe she has talked to Alblaka, maybe she hasn't... Not sure it would stop her if he did object.

There's no "maybe" - she's worked closely with him on things. It would appear that you get all of your infomation merely from this forum, and from no other source. If you read their blogs and her thread on the MC forums, you would have a more complete picture of how they work together.

Quote

And when Eloraam gets around to it if her 'ideas' about conversion are indeed the best implementation of the concept then her method will prevail and make the immibis's mod obsolete. Before that it sets the bar that she will have to beat.

The whole truth of the point is, it's HER bar Immibis is using! And I doubt that "melon batteries" are going to be the better implementation, honestly. Or that people will prefer to use an add-on that doesn't permit you to use HD textures.

Quote

It's not her code, RP2 is her code. immibis's converter is his code. His does nothing to her's that her's does not do to Mojang's.

... Except for the all-important "decompiles in violation of the license".

Quote

And presumably will do to Alblaka's once she gets to making her own energy conversion idea's more of a reality.

...except for the "with permission of the other developer".

Quote

This is about Eloraam doing everything she can to keep other people from essentially the same thing she does with Mojang's code.

Eloraam isn't stopping anyone from doing what she does with Mojang's code - she uses Mojang's code in accordance with the license and with Mojang's permission.
Immibis cannot say the same - he decompiled her code in violation of her license, without her permission, and without even her knowledge. There's no comparison.

I think that even Alblaka will agree that it is important to respect the wishes of his fellow developers, so don't lean too heavily on his praise for your method.

For me the more interesting question is, why mods like IC2, RP2 and Buildcraft must have thei own converters? The problem exists because forge don't have an converter in it. I mean, forge has an ore library to make mods compatible with each other, why not an energy coupler with an databse to convert energy units from one system to another?

Quote from Saul_Goode

I secretly hope that maybe my protest post will be the one that makes someone say, 'Ya know... I like Eloraam. I like the work she does. But she needs a check.' Maybe one of these times someone will decide that Eloraam has done similar enough times and decide to do something about it.

That's a pipe dream, because no one can make her do anythign with her mod that she doesn't want to do.
Force her to share (not that anyone has the right to) and she'll just stop developing altogether. Would that help anyone in any way?

Quote

Again- the abortive 1.1 attempt really does not compare here. Why keep bringing it up?

Because it is a perfect example of Alblaka asserting his right to determine how his content may be used. It compares perfectly, because what we're really talking about is each developer's right to share or protect their content as they see fit.

Quote

Please don't start with the 'You don't pay attention to enough sources for your info' crap again, went through that already. Thanks.

The fact of the matter is, all you know of this issue is what you've read here. You're clearly not familiar with the working relationship between the Forrge developers, nor Eloraaam's development of her mod or any other side of the story but what you see through this one narrow window. Like it or not, that's not the big picture.

Quote

(5) - Honestly I've not looked at her license agreement, and I'm not willing to at this instant. But as far as I'm concerned- You cannot place restrictions on your work prohibiting others from doing to yours what you did to create yours. It's how the game works. She decompiled Minecraft to allow her to create her mod to function as she pleases, placing restrictions on others for what she has done makes her a hypocrite. It's how it is. She modded Minecraft. immibis modded RP2. Turnabout is fair play mothereffer.

OK, I'll say this again (and as many times as it takes you to comprehend it:

* Mojang permits people to make mods based on their code. Eloraam's mod is acting in accordance with the license of the code she is modding.
*Eloraam does not permit her code to be decompiled for mods. She is within her legal and creative rights to do so.

You may feel that she cannot place such restrictions, but your belief doesn't modify the reality of a creator's rights. Just because Mojang chooses to share doesn't mean Eloraam is obligated to.

If you want to talk about hypocrisy, it's advocating someone's right to do as they wish but denying Eloraam the right to do the same with her code. This isn't "turnabout", and your attitude shows a marked lack of respect for the person without whom Immibis would have nothing to try and mod in the first place.

Quote

And my point, HeadHunter, since you insist on being difficult- Is that this is one of those times that she should have allowed it

I'm not "being difficult", but I wondered how long until you'd try and make this discussion about me. What's "difficult" is trying to get you to understand that she has the right to do as she pleases with what she's created, and no one has the right to take that from her.

You may feel like she "should have allowed it", but it may come as a shock to discover that she's probably never heard of you and honestly doesn't consider your opinion in her development plans. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded seeing it as well (though it could have been better implemented) - but she exercised her right to defend her license and I respect and support her decision as much as Alblaka does.

Quote

Why can't you grasp the concept of Eloraam keeping people from doing to her code what she does to Mojang's code is over-reaching in this case.

Why can't you grasp that it's not the same? What she did was explicitly permitted by Mojang's license- what Immibis did was explicilty not permitted by hers.

It's not about whether it "would have been nice" - it's about respecting her rights as a creator of content. She has the right to share or withhold as she pleases, to permit or deny specific uses, and to restrict distribution of add-ons based off her code. As Immibis admitted that he had to decompile her code to make his add-on, she is entitled to prohibit the add-on.

If you still have a problem with this, the person with whom you should be discussing it... is Eloraam. Pontificating to us will get you nowhere. If you're seeking change, take it to the source.

Quote from Alblaka

The main issue with a MCForge integrated converter is the fact the energy systems tend to differ a lot.
Would be hard to generalize them, I guess.

Maybe but not really the generel thing is that all machines receive energy packages per time interval and must have a special amount of packages per time to operate. Theoretical u can say when 1EU arrived and should be transformed into BC energy than it could maybe something like 2BC-EU or i need 2BC for 1EU or more generell 1EU = 1F-EU = 2BC-EU when a another mod cam an say 1M-EU = 2F-EU then it's only mathematic to convert one package into an another.

Quote from Saul_Goode

But if Forge made an energy system then it would be the same as all other things Forge handles of a similar nature. 'Here's the energy system that forge uses, If mod makers want to claim 'Forge-Compatibility' it's up to them to bring their energy systems in line. More or less same story as ores and the the ore dictionary. Yes?

The ore Pollution was a severe problem that needed a fixing pronto. Having 3 different kind of tins, spawning at different Y coordinates, in different amounts and each with different recipes that could not be used in the others recipes was a BAD problem. That was the reason the ore dictionary was created, to fix a problem.

I dont see the different kinds of Energy (That all 3 works differently too) as a problem that warrants a forge level solution, and even if it is, it should be well down the priority list. Besides theres already a BC<->IC2 energy converter (Well sort of, EU gets converted to MJ, but you only convert Oil and Fuel to EU not the direct MJ :P), is it so difficult to wait for eloraam to make the IC2<->Bluetricity converter that she herself had said in several ocassions that was in her development plans?

(That reminds me, why Albaka doesnt implement the burning of oil/fuel for EU in the generator? Or officially integrate the Petrochemical Generator for that purpose :P)

Most people miss one very important point.

It's about asking the modder. If you do something with the IC2-API that's fine, because the API is made for this. It's the same with BC. But if you need to decompile a Mod to make an Addon, which is strictly forbidden by the modder, you could at least ask him and share with ideas with the modder, so that he might allow it.

So if people don't ask, they have to be put down, because they will never learn it. And she already said that the Module for IC2 may arise even earlier. So I don't understand why people don't ask her before they do something she isn't allowing.

The next thing obviously is balance. No one could evaluate RP-Power vs. IC2-Power. Making the Solar-Module 1to1 would be quite strange, because they are so incredible easy to build. Even later it would be difficult and might cause balance-problems. So her modular-steampower-gen might get a module for creating EUs instead of Blutricity through Steampower or such things.

And till then you could simply use Blutriticty-Furnaces to make charcoal and burn them in a generator, quite easy power-transmission and Blutricity isn't used that much, and since blutricity-furnaces work at the same speed as electric-furnaces do, there is no need to convert EU to Blutricity for them.

Quote

I dont see the different kinds of Energy (That all 3 works differently too) as a problem that warrants a forge level solution, and even if it is, it should be well down the priority list. Besides theres already a BC<->IC2 energy converter (Well sort of, EU gets converted to MJ, but you only convert Oil and Fuel to EU not the direct MJ :P), is it so difficult to wait for eloraam to make the IC2<->Bluetricity converter that she herself had said in several ocassions that was in her development plans?

Actually Eloraam was or even is thinking how a forge-solution could look like. EU are more or less some kind of Watt because they represent Current and Voltage. It's quite easy to convert it to blutricity if you just imagine it alongside real systems. HV would obviously have a higher Voltage. So Full packages (4, 32, 128, 512, 2048) would all share the same amount of Current, but with more or less Voltage. If you have a packet with 344 EU it would have the same Voltage as a 512 EU packet but less with less Current. So there you go. So it's possible, but she doesn't only have the possibilities of the transformation in her mind, she also thinks about the balance of such converters.

I don't use RP, mainly because of Eloraam's heavy-handed attitude.
Her mod, her rules, fine. I don't have to use it. Nothing to see here, move along.

What does deeply concern me is the fact that someone who is so self-serving has control of the Forge.
For lack of an official API, (and face it the rate they are going it isn't coming anytime soon) Forge has become as critical as Modloader.

The reason we make and use mods is to have choices the devs didn't give us.
This kind of attitude and behavior is completely at odds with that reason.

Quote from Ldog

I don't use RP, mainly because of Eloraam's heavy-handed attitude.
Her mod, her rules, fine. I don't have to use it. Nothing to see here, move along.

What does deeply concern me is the fact that someone who is so self-serving has control of the Forge.
For lack of an official API, (and face it the rate they are going it isn't coming anytime soon) Forge has become as critical as Modloader.

The reason we make and use mods is to have choices the devs didn't give us.
This kind of attitude and behavior is completely at odds with that reason.

Actually LexManos is the Main Programmer of the forge lately. She only does what she needs, and sometimes looks into problems. But since many contributors to the forge have own Mods to work with they can't maintain it completly. So basically neither SpaceToad nor Eloraam have any control over forge (well SpaceToad does the public packing and such things. So Forge Maintainer mainly is LexManos... you may have noticed it, because a new forge-update was released the time eloraam was on vacation (which even caused RP to not work properly).

Actually Forge gives developers more options to decide. You would most likely not be able to play BC, IC2 or RP together because they may modify the same baseclasses (well IC2 not sure, but BC and RP definitly).