Discussion about conversion mods.

  • That's an extremly thin ice you're working on.


    Mojang permits modifications of Minecraft for non-commercial use only.


    Their Terms Of Use seem to disagree with that assessment:


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    Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, including selling them for money.


    Now, one might try and debate what constitutes a "plugin", but it's hard to arrive at a definition that doesn't mean "mod". Most people wouldn't think to nor care to sell their work - but Mojang's license seems to explicitly, rather than implicitly, allow for it.

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    Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, including selling them for money. We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't.

    If mojang says you can do whatever the f*** you want with it, then theres little to discuss anymore besides how aggresive or bad elo attitude was regarding her method to forbid the futher distribution of a submod of her own mod.

  • Considering that the main pro/antagonists in this thread have been banned due to other, semi-correlated


    huh? I missed it... who got banned and why?


    tl;dr: There is reason to be concerned about her actions, as they devalue the opinion of Forge with her decisions and actions over Redpower. But at the same time, I doubt she will do something so rash with RP that people drop that mod (and other mods that connect to it) due to said actions. Yes, it does make a few uneasy, but I say let's give her more time. She wants to do the energy crossover herself (I can almost bet that it's going to be based around a Volt*Amp = Watt(EU) system of energy transfer), and wants the proper 'tools' in place for the player to do so. Let's leave her be, because I do believe she'll deliver on what most of her playerbase wants...


    Pretty good post.


    Only thing I have to say really is that there is nothing that would have prevented Eloraam from going forward with her own method. Part of my original platform was that this was more about limiting of choice than threat to work. This mod would have had zero effect on the people that chose not to use it, and that includes Eloraam herself, all the more reason to develop the conversion her way if she's not using an addon converter...


    "FenixR" wrote:

    (1) - ...did not know that saul and headhunter was banned...
    (2) - And just because the "Core Software" agree to modification, it doesnt mean that 3rd party mods should also allow modification because of... the terms and rules of the first core software


    (1) - I was banned? Humpf, news to me too...


    (2) - But typically (with the majority of Community Copyrights, at least) it's actually written into the license that derivative works have to be released under the same license version as the 'core' software. It's the mindset of 'We are allowing you to build off of our work, allow others to do the same to yours'. Think 'Do unto others.'


    "BlueHorazon" wrote:

    She playes BC and IC2 herself and is again a proof of modders modding for themself.


    Again, she doesn't install an addon converter then it won't affect HER gameplay. Her squashing Immibis' mod only affects OUR gameplay.



    It seems to me that this would be like Microsoft saying 'No browser except Internet Explorer, because we want you to surf the internet the way that we think is best.'

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.


  • (2) - But typically (with the majority of Community Copyrights, at least) it's actually written into the license that derivative works have to be released under the same license version as the 'core' software. It's the mindset of 'We are allowing you to build off of our work, allow others to do the same to yours'. Think 'Do unto others.'s BC

    Which is not the case here, if you read the post above yours, that quoted piece was extracted straight from the mojang term of use.

  • Which is not the case here, if you read the post above yours, that quoted piece was extracted straight from the mojang term of use.


    I understand that, which is the reason that I prefaced my statement with 'typically'.


    I was trying to show how out of the ordinary Eloraams' terms are. A software developer can write whatever they want into their EULA, including a claim on your first-born child, if they so desire. The question is how people react when they take action on their terms.


    Mojangs' ToS are extremely fair... don't STEAL from us, do what you like to modify to your liking. Don't distribute OUR work, distribute yours as you see fit.


    "Mojang ToS" wrote:

    We're trying to be open and honest, and we hope people treat us the same way back.


    Is an extracted quotation of my own... As I've said in the past about precedents- Mojang set one here. I don't feel that Eloraam has been very open, and I doubt the honesty of anyone that says this is about license terms.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • It's all about control. She wants to keep it.


    But I still lack any proof how her attidude could be harmful, exspecially since she is on the other hand quite helpful.

  • It's all about control. She wants to keep it.

    I highly doubt it's that. With FC, yes... but her, not really. I believe she can already she the futility of such efforts on the open-domain as is. Besides, part of warning control is the inability to allowed shared design with others, and she's already lent more than enough concepts from her code to trump that argument...


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    Is an extracted quotation of my own... As I've said in the past about precedents- Mojang set one here. I don't feel that Eloraam has been very open, and I doubt the honesty of anyone that says this is about license terms.


    Granted, but I do believe this is a 'for-the-time-being' sort of thing due to how limited her current mod is. Once Redpower comes off the pre-release state, that may change, and she may surprise us with how open (or closed) about the code that she'll be..

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


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    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

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    I highly doubt it's that. With FC, yes... but her, not really. I believe she can already she the futility of such efforts on the open-domain as is. Besides, part of warning control is the inability to allowed shared design with others, and she's already lent more than enough concepts from her code to trump that argument...


    Which does actually prove my argument. Her copyright forces everyone to ask her first. Which means that she has control if she allows something or not. She recently allowed Azanor to create a Blutricity-Generator for Thaumcraft.


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    Try talking to me on irc sometime, I'm not that hard to reach and I do, on occasion, allow RedPower integration with certain mods. I just like to pre-screen them first


    Actually this is what eloraam herself is saying about this. And "I just like to pre-screen them first" sounds very much like keeping control. If you get her Ok you will most likely end up with a little help too. So I again fail to see why this is so incredible evil.

  • Incredible evil? Perhaps not. This thread has been spun so far out of context that it bears very little resemblance to what it was intended to be.


    I don't HATE Eloraam. (Seems like I've heard someone say that before...) And I never did...


    What started this for me was the key quote 'I have my own plans in mind for that'. As I've stated before, if she had simply said 'It violates my license.', I would have never questioned her decision. I would have barely given it a half-thought much less a second-thought.


    I know it doesn't make sense to everyone, but I question the 'why' just as much as the 'what' and am generally more likely to support a person that does the wrong thing for the right reasons than the person that does the right thing for the wrong reasons. In this situation, I see Immibis doing the wrong thing (releasing a mod that violated the RP2 license), for the right reasons (made it to learn, released it a) as a matter of pride b) to help people that might find a Blu<>EU feature handy.)


    She recently allowed Azanor to create a Blutricity-Generator for Thaumcraft.


    Yes, the subject of the Thaum<>RP2 converter has been discussed and proves some of my own points...


    From a few pages ago...
    quote@='FenixR' quote@="Eloraam": If Azanor came to me and asked, I'd probably allow it. I'm not currently planning a Thaumcraft interoperability module, and I see that it would help users of my mod."


    I'll just quote myself for the rest and save a bit of typing...



    (3) - Precisely why I view this as being about competition. She has her own plans for IC<>RP and BC<>RP, so anything else would be competing against HER method of converting. She has no plans for Thaum<>RP2 so there's no competition for her there. If, as she herself has stated, 'In fact, I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity', "any" is all-inclusive, allowing some while disallowing others is not 'ANY' it is 'SOME'. She is only allowing converters that she has no plans for. NO PLANS FOR. If she's not intending to do it then she'll allow it because, again, it's not competition for her. Allowing *certain* mods she doesn't intend to do herself goes directly against her original statement of specifically disallowing ANY conversion mods. She is only disallowing the things SHE PLANS to do, not the things she doesn't.


    Conversion mods aren't the problem, competition for her intended way of converting are.


    She says it in plain English when she says "I am currently planning IC and BC, though. That's why I'm not allowing those modules at all."


    It's not about stealing her work. It's not about waiting for a proper RP2 API. ... ... HER PLANS.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • Still I miss the reason why this is bad?


    For some bizarre reason, saul thinks that elo its not allowed to have her own plans and/or have to let the community make the stuff she eventually its going to do.


    Its not bad, like you have said its calling having control of your own project. If you think you are not allowed control of your own project then something its wrong with you.


  • Ok, THAT one is definitely new to me.
    Sort of makes stuff easier for me :3 Intended to offer doing mod-request for money, to stock up my Studying finances... and this kinda clears out all possible jurisdiction issues i could have run into.


    @Banned discussion:
    Head_Hunter was NOT banned for his participation in this thread, but rather for flaming in a different one.

  • For some bizarre reason, saul thinks that elo its not allowed to have her own plans and/or have to let the community make the stuff she eventually its going to do.
    Its not bad, like you have said its calling having control of your own project. If you think you are not allowed control of your own project then something its wrong with you.


    This isn't about HER project, it's about how she exerts her will on other peoples projects. I have no problem with Eloraam having her own plans, or implementing her own plans. It's about the only valid reason being HER WAY is the ONLY WAY.


    I have no problems with her retaining control of her mod, it the part where she exerts control over someone else's mod when she shouldn't have that power. So I guess that means that nothing is wrong with me? She can control her mod all she likes, Immibis' converter was NOT her mod.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • This isn't about HER project, it's about how she exerts her will on other peoples projects. I have no problem with Eloraam having her own plans, or implementing her own plans. It's about the only valid reason being HER WAY is the ONLY WAY.


    I have no problems with her retaining control of her mod, it the part where she exerts control over someone else's mod when she shouldn't have that power. So I guess that means that nothing is wrong with me? She can control her mod all she likes, Immibis' converter was NOT her mod.


    But immibis mod was heavily related to Eloraam mod, it was pratically a submod of her mod so she does have some control over it. I though we already told you that immibis mod its useless without eloraam mod.

  • This isn't about HER project, it's about how she exerts her will on other peoples projects. I have no problem with Eloraam having her own plans, or implementing her own plans. It's about the only valid reason being HER WAY is the ONLY WAY.


    I have no problems with her retaining control of her mod, it the part where she exerts control over someone else's mod when she shouldn't have that power. So I guess that means that nothing is wrong with me? She can control her mod all she likes, Immibis' converter was NOT her mod.


    Her mod is a short version of summing up everything that belongs to this mod. Which includes some specific implementations. So everyone who uses her systems, like blutricity or microblocks, uses her mod. Which she might allow in certain situations and forbids in other situations, which situations that are is up to her to decide.


    So immibis is free to create whatever mod he wants, as long as he doesn't use eloraams mod to do this.


    So immibis first mod was not really a new project but a modification of eloraams project, most submods are like this. Sometimes they develop into an own project (actually Redpower was a Submod for BC earlier, and Forestry is much the same), but as long as you build your mod on top of another you are dependend on that modders attidude towards your mode.

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    @Banned discussion:
    Head_Hunter was NOT banned for his participation in this thread, but rather for flaming in a different one.

    Yeah... I'm still kinda disappointed in him for that... I mean, it was a kid for god sake's.. leave him be..


    On-topic: I'm still betting on that Volt*Amp=Watt system. I'm not faulting her for doing the conversion if this is her specific aim. And personally, I find that a tab forgivable because her mod becomes more that just a new element of fun: it also becomes a powerful teaching tool to be usable in an academic setting. I kinda wish I could say the same for Minecraft's "geology"...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


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    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

  • So everyone who uses her systems, like blutricity or microblocks, uses her mod. Which she might allow in certain situations and forbids in other situations, which situations that are is up to her to decide.


    Wrong.


    Eloraam gets absolutely no say over the usage of microblocks. Microblocks are a method and anybody is free to look at her code to see how she does it then implement it in their own mod. Eloraam didn't 'invent' microblocks and they aren't specifically dependent on any code of hers.


    The only thing Eloraam has control over is her CODE. Her specific code. If someone wanted they could write their own direct clone of RP2, and so long as they do not literally 'copy-paste' her code they would be free to release it as a direct competitor to RP2. Think of the TMI vs. NEI problems. Look, purpose and function are near identical, but since ChickenBones wrote it, it's his to release.

    (actually Redpower was a Submod for BC earlier


    Submod of BC, seriously? Can I get you to cite a reference on that? The fact that people defend her gets more and more amazing each time I learn something like that... Like when I learned of Minia... I've gotten a good 20 minutes of laughter about that little gem over the last couple of weeks.

    &quot;FenixR&quot; wrote:

    I though we already told you that immibis mod its useless without eloraam mod.


    Right. And how would you feel if Mojang started shutting down certain mods for BS reasons and basically just said 'We don't want you to play the game THAT way. It uses our code so that's that."


    Would every Minecraft player just say 'OK.' and go back to Vanilla?


    &quot;MagusUnion&quot; wrote:

    On-topic: I'm still betting on that Volt*Amp=Watt system. I'm not faulting her for doing the conversion if this is her specific aim.


    Still don't see why our game has to be HER way... I mean, why do I HAVE to add a third energy net just to be able to use a couple of Sorting Machines? Why not allow an addon converter so I can just leech a bit of power from my already in place IC2 grid? At least until her suitably complex system is sorted and implemented?


    Honestly I'd be skeptical of someone wanting to continue updating and supporting a conversion mod by the time Eloraam gets hers finished and I think it's quite possible they'd be willing to voluntarily discontinue it once Eloraam released hers.


    I just think that in the short term allowing the converter would have 'helped her users' just the same as when she justified allowing the ThaumCraft mod.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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    Eloraam gets absolutely no say over the usage of microblocks. Microblocks are a method and anybody is free to look at her code to see how she does it then implement it in their own mod. Eloraam didn't 'invent' microblocks and they aren't specifically dependent on any code of hers.


    The only thing Eloraam has control over is her CODE. Her specific code. If someone wanted they could write their own direct clone of RP2, and so long as they do not literally 'copy-paste' her code they would be free to release it as a direct competitor to RP2. Think of the TMI vs. NEI problems. Look, purpose and function are near identical, but since ChickenBones wrote it, it's his to release.


    Depends on how they use microblocks. If they code their own system to behave much like eloraams. Fine. If they just use her functions and essentially her mod to make their microblocks it's a bit different. Oh and totally recoding RP2 with everything in it is something in the grey. It's like reproducing a Song with different instruments and if you try this one you would surely run into trouble.


    But go find someone who does it, than we can talk.


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    Submod of BC, seriously? Can I get you to cite a reference on that? The fact that people defend her gets more and more amazing each time I learn something like that... Like when I learned of Minia... I've gotten a good 20 minutes of laughter about that little gem over the last couple of weeks.


    It's not that obvious now, since she reworked her OP. But it should be commonly known that she started with a Redstone-Pipe for BC and a Timer to create pulses for Wooden Pipes. But this has not much to do with her mod, since BC uses a totally different copyright that allows such things (the timer actually was meant as a submod but free of any BC-Code, so it is more like immibis second mod, which she had approved).


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    Right. And how would you feel if Mojang started shutting down certain mods for BS reasons and basically just said 'We don't want you to play the game THAT way. It uses our code so that's that."


    Would every Minecraft player just say 'OK.' and go back to Vanilla?


    No Minecraft-Players could just not buy the game. Minecraft is open for modding for a reason, they make money with it. Why should eloraam do it? She has no need for more users, so she is free to do what she wants. Actually you should know that Notch hates modding, he only allows it because Jeb convinced him, I guess mainly by the argument of money. If you run a company you are not free to do what you want, because you are restricted by economical aspects. I see no reason why eloraam should be compared to Mohjang in any means since it is a totally different situation if you make money with something or not.


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    Still don't see why our game has to be HER way... I mean, why do I HAVE to add a third energy net just to be able to use a couple of Sorting Machines? Why not allow an addon converter so I can just leech a bit of power from my already in place IC2 grid? At least until her suitably complex system is sorted and implemented?


    If you don't want your game her way may I suggest not using her mod? What do you expect? That she creates a mod that is only for your personal needs?


    And actually it is easier to use the BT-System than converting the EU to BT. Really there is not much that needs energy in her mod (Retrievers and Sorters don't use much energy. Since you can create a thermopile everywhere you would normally build a converter there is just no need for it. With IC2 installed even the nether is no problem since you can easily create Ice.


  • Right. And how would you feel if Mojang started shutting down certain mods for BS reasons and basically just said 'We don't want you to play the game THAT way. It uses our code so that's that."


    Would every Minecraft player just say 'OK.' and go back to Vanilla?


    As the company who made the game, they have a absolute right to tell you how the game should be played, after all they made it, they have the source code, they can move shit around so much that could make everysingle mod out there useless. Of course has bluehorazon already say, they wont do something like that since mods are the number 1 attractive of the game and the reason almost 22million of people around the world bought the game.


    In normal situations, if you dont like the way a game is, you absolutely complain about it in a forum that has nothing to do with the game (Although related in a obscure way) until the creators do something about it............... oh wait? No you dont! you simply dont buy the game and look for something else you would want to play.


    Think of every mod of minecraft as a game and the above analogy is complete.


    Save this in you harddrive saul, you dont have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell a developer how he should or should not develop his/her mod or what stance to take when something altering his work appears, you are just the user/final user the only real thing you get to decide about the mod is if you decide to download it or not.

  • they wont do something like that since mods are the number 1 attractive of the game and the reason almost 22million of people around the world bought the game.


    In normal situations, if you dont like the way a game is, you absolutely complain about it in a forum that has nothing to do with the game (Although related in a obscure way) until the creators do something about it...


    Minor point of order:
    "Only" 5 million people have purchased the game. The 22 Million you quote is the number of registered users of minecraft.net. Let's not confuse forum membership with ownership of the product.
    Still, 5 million is pretty impressive, and it puts it up there with some pretty major PC and console games.


    However, the other point is very relevant. WHY is this topic still in the IC2 section of the forum? It's so off-topic that IC2 is only occasionally mentioned as a tangential reference. The thread is nominally about "conversion mods" but to me, it looks more like a lot of griping about how Eloraam does things. When did this become the RedPower forum?