Wind mills : what is the optimal height with the new limit?

1st Official Post

    So, I set up my new server with the Anvil map format and IC2 1.95 (plus the full set of other mods). The new height limit is 256.


    Great, I thought. Double the power output!. So I built a tower to 256, plopped down 24 wind generators in 3 small groups of 8 each, and checked the output.


    The IC2 team did NOT nerf the wind generator for this release (which I was expecting). Double the world height, double the output. I was getting 4-7 EU/tick per generator, easily. That's 24/7 power, so it roflstomps solar panels (since solars make 0.5 EU/tick if you factor in night) by a factor of 10 to 14 times.


    EXCEPT...I find some iron ingots on the ground. Hmm. After a few hours of operation, 4 of my 24 generators had broken their blades! In about 24 hours of total run time, now, I've had to change the blades at least 15 times!


    Apparently, at this height limit, the chance of losing a blade is far too high. Technically I make far fewer EUs than the UU-matter cost of all the iron in the replacement blades, so basically my wind farm converts iron ingots to EUs.


    So I need some help with the math. From the decompiled code, we need to figure out what the probability of a blade breakage per real life hour is relative to the height over the world. Then, I'll stick my generators somewhere where they make at least 3 times as many EUs as the UU-matter cost of new blades, without scrap, before losing their blades.

    I believe they break when making more than 5EU/t... It really depends on whether you want to risk wind and storms. If the effective height is less than 80 it seems to never break :). That means your best chance is to work out the amount of blocks within the windmills area (9x9x5, will probably be mostly cables and other wind mills) and then add that to 80 placing the windmills at the resulting height (effective height = height - x where x is the amount of blocks in the windmills area).

    Or, a single piece of tin close to the first batbox that gets energy from one tower.
    That way the generators should stop working once it exceeds 5eu/t.
    Or create a platform with waterstreams to catch the flown-away ingots.

    Quote

    Buildcraft – spilling items.™

    Interesting find! In that case, I imagine that wind will be the prime stock of renewable energy for many players. In which case, the only other hurtle you would have to circumvent would be the HV -> LV issue with ground based structures.. but I can easily see players simply ignoring that 'difficulty' via skyscrapers and such, lol...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    It might just be me but I can't shake the feeling that my windgens are producing less. After a short hiatus while our server got their crap together, I built a windgen setup exactly like I used to. A modest tower of 14 windgens following a cable straight down from level 125 (four surrounding the cable each step of the way) really basic stuff, just like before they raised the sky height. As of now, the average power output (tested over several hours) is all of.... 14EU/t. That's 1eu per generator. I've never had power generation that poor from windgens. That's the same as Solars and they used to blow solar out of the water. Have they been nerfed or something?

    • Official Post
    Quote from BrickedKeyboard

    How come wind generators would break before the height limit was raised? Is the code different than it was before? (for breakage chances)

    After 1.2.4 MC release wind mills mechanic had been changed [Making wind mills at new max height work 1.33 times better than old max height , instead of 2 times]
    Also wind mills only start breaking after producing 6EU/t

    So I'm going to have to set my rig up a bit higher then?


    I use your wind-towers myself, so what height should I set those up? Is 166 the optimal height for only one unblocked gen? If so, I'd have to put them even higher.

    • Official Post
    Quote from DrSNAFU

    So I'm going to have to set my rig up a bit higher then?


    I use your wind-towers myself, so what height should I set those up? Is 166 the optimal height for only one unblocked gen? If so, I'd have to put them even higher.

    For tower design place the highest wind mill at 178 (highest one has extra 14 obstructions)

    I have made a mistake! Some value wasn't an integer like I thought, so actual optimal height without breaking is 149 (calculating 2 cables beneath the windmill).
    Which has an average of producing 1,66 EU/t.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Snyke

    I have made a mistake! Some value wasn't an integer like I thought, so actual optimal height without breaking is 149 (calculating 2 cables beneath the windmill).
    Which has an average of producing 1,66 EU/t.

    So, can you remake your wind mill math formula? and re-post it. So i may do the math for tower design.

    Quote from SpwnX

    So, can you remake your wind mill math formula? and re-post it. So i may do the math for tower design.

    Windmill mechanics:
    There's a random value from 0-30 which represents the windstrength.
    If this gets above 20 or below 10 the chance of decreasing or rising more will decrease.
    There is a weather value aswell, if it's raining this is 1.2, if it's storming its 1.5, other wise just 1.
    EU/t output = (windStrength * (height - 64 - blocks around windmill(itself not included)) / 750 * weatherValue).
    If the output is larger than 5, there is a chance equal to (this value - 5) / 5000 of the windmill breaking, which is checked once every 128 ticks.
    We dont want any chance of it breaking so:
    5 = windStrength * (height - 64 - blocks around windmill) / 750 * weatherValue.
    5 = 30 * (height - 64 - 2(the cables beneath it)) / 750 * 1.5
    5 = 45 * (height - 66) / 750
    3750 = 45 * (height - 66)
    83,333 = height - 66
    height = 149,33
    Optimum height is thus 149.



    You can calculate average output by taking windstrength = 15 (which is the average windstrength).
    So average output of a windmill at 149 = 15 * (149 - 66) / 750 = 1,66 EU/t - all day, all night.
    Average output of a solar panel = (12 * 1 + 8 * 0 ) / 20 = 0,6 EU/t - meaning windmills are 1,66/0,6 = 2,766, almost 3 times as good.

    • Official Post

    Thanks that you fixed it.
    I have to say that even with output being 6EU/t you will have a 0,02% chance every 6s to break a wind mill.
    Thunderstorms frequency is about one every 10 to 140 minutes
    It lasts for 3 to 10 minutes
    Considering the very low chance of having Max wind + Thunderstorm the chance to break a wind mill is a very small number, very next to zero.


    But i will use that for those who REALLY dont ever want to touch your wind mills again.

    Quote from SpwnX

    Thanks that you fixed it.
    I have to say that even with output being 6EU/t you will have a 0,02% chance every 6s to break a wind mill.
    Thunderstorms frequency is about one every 10 to 140 minutes
    It lasts for 3 to 10 minutes
    Considering the very low chance of having Max wind + Thunderstorm the chance to break a wind mill is a very small number, very next to zero.


    But i will use that for those who REALLY dont ever want to touch your wind mills again.

    So, for those who do mind having a tiny, INSIGNIFICANT chance of wind mill breakage, in other words those who need indefinite period of time, maintenance less energy provided by wind generators, who also don't use tower design, optimal hight is 149. However, I think that many/most people would be better served with the max 6 EU/t like was suggested above, because I believe the breakage chances are only 0.003...3% per second when thunderstorm plus 30 wind strength.



    - thunderstorms only 8.6...67% of time (average 6.5 minutes per every av. 75 minutes)
    - now down to 0.00028% per second
    - I don't know what chance it is to be 30 wind strength, but I'll assume it is, say, 5% chance.
    - Now we are down to 0.052% chance per hour to break our windmills
    - This means that there is a 1 in 2,000 chance per windmill per hour to break... insignificant


    Now, to redo calculations based on assumption that max of 6 EU/t is acceptable (for people like me anyways)-


    6 = 30 * (height - 64 - 2(for cables)) / 750 * 1.5


    6 = 0.06 * (height - 66)
    6 = 0.06height - 3.96
    0.06h = 9.96
    optimal height = 166


    With hight of 166, average EU/t is


    166 = 15 * (166 - 66) / 750 = 2 EU/t



    More power for more of the day and night than solar! *goes to install wind power*


    P.S. If I made some stupid mistake or something, please point it out :P

    GENERATION 27: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the
    generation. Social experiment.

    • Official Post

    Flameanatorx, I really suggest you to use wind towers, otherwise space needed will be freaking huge [if you plan to expand it].
    And, you can use tin cables with newest wind tower design, except for sending through glass fiber cables to base [For a wind tower at height 181 and your base is at a mountain you will need about 16 diamonds [If you use redpower silver recipe]

    Quote from SpwnX

    Flameanatorx, I really suggest you to use wind towers, otherwise space needed will be freaking huge [if you plan to expand it].
    And, you can use tin cables with newest wind tower design, except for sending through glass fiber cables to base [For a wind tower at height 181 and your base is at a mountain you will need about 16 diamonds [If you use redpower silver recipe]

    Hmm... I hadn't thought of the tin cable factor... So, I suppose that 149 is the best height for tin cable users as well, in other words, any one who doesn't want to use up too many diamonds just for wiring AND who doesn't want to build their base on the top of some kind of skyscraper. Which is probably most of us...


    And, as for the tower design, which I will probably end up using eventually, I will calculate all of that stuff later, I'm somewhat busy at the current moment :P

    GENERATION 27: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the
    generation. Social experiment.