Random rants about aspects of game Balance and democracy

  • I know this is late, but I'm joining into this. here are my full opinions on the matter with the recipes (coming from a player and a map maker)


    Yes, the recipes are more expensive (overall). I like the new plates system as that provides the possibility to make more machines, an example I can think of is copper machines that are slower, cheaper but can overheat which means that they need to be cooled down in between uses (this applies more for furnaces then anything else) or even Iridium ones which are the highest tier forms of the machines, the fastest, most power efficient but the most expensive. I can live with the pricing of the new machines because, if need be, I CAN USE ANOTHER MOD LIKE THERMAL EXPANSION, that is my choice.


    One of the things I read was the speed of the metal former, I believe what your looking for are overclocker upgrades if the speed is really bugging you that much. Hoppers are designed for early automation (in comparison) so,when your out speeding the hopper, install in a new automation, pipes (BC or GT, your choice), ME cable, ect.


    If you think the mod is going in a bad direction, here is a novel idea: make your own mod that does the same stuff your way. You stated that you made the Advanced furnaces mod so you clearly have Java skill so make your own machine mod, don't complain to the developers about your nitpicks with the mod. Get over it or make your own.


    You believe that IC2 lacks a vision and purpose, I beg to differ. While I may not know the purpose of the mod at the moment, the intention was to make a mod that brings industrialization to Minecraft, and it does that well. Is it the best? not my place to decide. To give you a idea of purpose, I am working on Shrine Runner (check my signature, not a plug I swear). Its purpose was to expand on the base of FTB Insanity by providing a diverse challenge that isn't always "craft X, get Y to make Z" and at the moment, I think its doing a good job. I also intend for it to be harder then Insanity which is more intimidating then challenging. The point I'm making here though is this, unless you know exactly what the vision and purpose, DO NOT claim that it is lacking said vision and purpose.


    My last statement on the matter is this

    Quote

    The problem with life-experience however is that everyone needs to make his own, so no matter what I say or how much of it, you'll either listen in the first place, because you have learned the lesson to listen already, or you never will. As we are on page 6 with no relevant progress, I assume it will be the later. So go forth, do your thing, and either prove me wrong, or - should I be right - learn from it.


    It is one thing to go out and accuse the developers, but I believe that this is going to far. I believe the expression I'm looking for is "kettle calling teapot black" or People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" (I know their old but I couldn't come up with something newer that works). From what I have read, you are behaving like a Brick wall, not willing to compromise. While I respect that they are your opinions, you are not willing to acknowledge the opinions of others as also being right because they conflict with yours. If anyone needs to head your advice sir, its you.

  • i just read though 6 pages of this forum to find out that i am late for the party.


    the 6 pages were about a guy saying that hes not happy about the changes in the experimental build. after sufficient flaming from 4-5 guys he gave up trying to reason with these people.
    thats one contributing member of the ic community gone. there are too many of those anyways, i guess.

  • There was no flaming, and the conversation basically went like this:


    You: "A"
    Them: "Not A, I don't like it"
    You: "Then B? You could also do A like this, which is much easier than how you are currently doing it."
    Them: "NO A SUCKS I WILL DO WHAT I WANT"
    You: "Then do B? There are also options C, D, and E."
    Them: "A IS BAD, SO IT'S NOT GOOD, AND I CANNOT DO A"
    You: "You're ignoring what I said."
    Them: "YOU'RE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR BEING AN ELITIST"
    You: "WTF? Just do B, or any of the other options."
    Them: "I DON'T WANT TO DO B I WANT A EXCEPT EASIER"
    You: "But A is easy, you're doing it wrong."
    Them: "STOP FLAMING ME"


    You should understand why I lost patience halfway through.

  • if this is how you percieved the discussion, you lost patience because you didnt understand what that "Two" guy was saying.
    in fact: if THIS is how you percieved the discussion you lost patience because you were not reading his posts.

  • well maybe he was wrong. mostly he said that he didnt like the new system with wires, plates, casing and the metal former (which i understand because at first i hated it too). And him drawing conclusions like how it forced him to stand waiting for a machine to finish is just wrong (as you said).
    its just that some users cheered each other up in flaming him (most notably MagusUnion - that kid thought it was hillarious that his 1000th post on a forum was an immature flame post).
    Maybe im talking to the wrong guy here. im not shure if the posts that made me wanna puke were written by you. i just felt kinda bad for this guy, because he could have used some backup, because mostly his position was in a way understandable - hes maybe not a hardcore ic-player and many will feel like he did.


    sorry for accusing you to not having read his posts. obviousely you did. but still. your description of the argument was a little... off... in my opinion.

  • id also like to give a valid thing that bothered me (in regard of scrap ammounts). i just dont know if this here is still a useful thread for balance issues because it is so heavily loaded with the previous 6 pages.


    i do however think that this mod could use a balance thread, because the developers are taking such big steps in that regard and could propably do with some feedback from the community.
    so this is a problem: on the one hand people want to see a final release of this mod, because it is something like THE MOD for minecraft. on the other hand they are not exactly diplomats and start writing crap that cannot really help with motivating the devs to keep working on it. on the other hand these people are the ones that are going to play this mod and their opinions should influence the devs work.


    i think it would be good to set up a list on what is debatable and what is written in stone and players of the mod will just have to bite the bullet and deal with it.
    - for example: it has become quite clear that the devs are generally making things more expensive in order to drag out the gameplay. you need to spend more time and ressources to get the same thing. i personally love that, but it doesnt matter. its not debatable.
    - other example: i have quarried an 11x11 chunk area from layer 55 downwards, turned most of the cobble into slabs and recycled all of the cobble and slabs. it has not given me enough scrap to make quantum armor. i dont love it. i dont know if it matters because i dont know if required scrap ammounts are debatable.


    bottom line: it is common practice in game devellopment to use the community as testers in order to find bugs and balance the game. with this mod the communication between community and devs has become so sour that it lost its usefulness. my suggestion: make a thread with very strict rules about how to discuss a balance issue - delete posts that violate these rules without warning.


    i think you will find that half of the posts that ought to be deleted in THIS thread are actually by people that are trying to defend the devs work.

  • - other example: i have quarried an 11x11 chunk area from layer 55 downwards, turned most of the cobble into slabs and recycled all of the cobble and slabs. it has not given me enough scrap to make quantum armor. i dont love it. i dont know if it matters because i dont know if required scrap ammounts are debatable.


    Incidentally, the amount of EU needed to make UU is configable - so you could, if you wanted to.

    145 Mods isn't too many. 9 types of copper and 8 types of tin aren't too many. 3 types of coffee though?

    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you read was not what I meant.


    ---- Minecraft Crash Report ----
    // I just don't know what went wrong :(


    I see this too much.

  • Gaining a lot of scrap is a lot harder than before, yes, but then again it's configurable by the amount of EU uuMatter needs as well as the config option to accept Cobblestone for scrap. And as long as you can scrap cobblestone, you can't really complain about enough scrap, can you? You can always turn down the EU value or just make more Cobblestone gens / Recyclers.

  • the ammount of EU needed is fine (maybe even too low). once you got a certain number of reactors (for me it was 4) you dont have this issue.
    but i AM actually complaining about the ammount of cobblestone needed. an 11x11 chunk area is quite large, yet it doesnt give me enough cobble to make quantum armor.


    i am not shure if you suggest to make cobblestone generators with lava/water. i thought about that idea and experimented with buildcraft mining wells, but decided not to go that way. the solution for me was to make a railline and start quarrying somewhere else. (there is nothing but empty space under my base in every direction. i got bunches of iron, copper.... but i literally ran out of cobblestone)

  • the ammount of EU needed is fine (maybe even too low). once you got a certain number of reactors (for me it was 4) you dont have this issue.
    but i AM actually complaining about the ammount of cobblestone needed. an 11x11 chunk area is quite large, yet it doesnt give me enough cobble to make quantum armor.


    You either have an outdated version of IC2 where Scrap gave several orders of magnitude less amplifier than intended, or are exaggerating. Cobblestone also is not supposed to be scrapped (if you recycle it, it never produces scrap). There's a recycler blacklist. The cobblestone blacklist is a GT feature ~SpwnX

  • ok then i definitely have an outdated version. im certainly not exagerating. i did recycle the slabs from 121 (=11x11) chunks of cobblestone (layer 55 downwards). also most of the dirt and gravel but thats minor influence.


    is the limiting factor for everybody the EU? even in the old IC2 it was scrap for me. if it was EU you would just make more reactors, no?

  • The thing you are concerning is the fact that scrap reduces the EU requirement by a factor of 6, hence why scrap is so important for you.
    Also, the amplifier value kept the same, thus requiring more scrap to do the same job. Not to mention those values are probably going to be changed (UUM is gonna be tweaked later).

  • I know how scrap works, but thanks anyways.


    so there is my point from earlier: some values are probably going to be tweaked. are the devs planning on testing everything themselves, use dedicated testers, or simply use the community for testing. because if the latter is the case, i think there should be a thread where people can post their opinion about the values.
    for example: with the experience i have had, it becomes more reasonable at some point to make several mass fabs and a crapton of reactors to make uu-matter without scrap (at the point where you would need a railline to bring in more scrapable material). and i dont think that this is what the devs had in mind.

  • Quote

    bottom line: it is common practice in game development to use the community as testers in order to find bugs and balance the game.


    Actually, no. Big named corporations use dedicated alpha/beta testers in order to test the functionality and enjoy-ability of a game. Those testers are employed (as it is, in fact, a paid profession) to accurately discern and coherently analyze a game for its play value before it hits open market. They have their own inside systems and tests to determine what factors could make the game better, and what factors should remain as part of the core mechanics of said video game...


    These mods are NO WHERE close to that level of complexity. In fact, the Steam Workshop is a better example as to how the quality of these mod should be treated. The biggest issue with IC2 and the mod community is the over-arching Modpack meta-game that likes to creep into every influencing decision of how a mod 'should be designed'. It's almost to the point of 'conform or die' philosophy in which every mod should fulfill the niche roles that modpacks assign it, and not doing so is regarded as such a blasphemous action that results in flames, short-tempers, and bullshit arguments...


    IC2 has taken a new path, that has ultimately decided that they don't give a flying fuck about said modpacks or the meta-game surrounding them. In which case, there are many who 'wish to voice their disdain' (a.k.a. bitch their little heads off) about the changes that have occurred. The changes go against the grain of the modpack meta-game (don't lie and say that this isn't the real issue you are having), and thus they feel that it's 'necessary' to come here and demand that it should be changed back...


    At that point, it's up to IC2 to see if there is any real value in actually changing to something more modpack friendly. Considering that modpacks don't give any additional benefit beyond 'more users' (hurting your average user IQ amount), I don't think the dev team has any true incentive to change their content for any other purpose that the one they have already set...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

  • it is still very common to use the community for testing. big companies do it differently (not even all of them) but its far from unheared of to have an open beta not only to test but also to help with funding the project. seeing that the devs chose to publish their wip made me think this was also the case for this ic project.


    you, calling me a liar and being generally unable to write a post without using swear words, are a good example for users who turn the whole discussion into a flame war.


    for the record: i dont use a modpack and never have. i play industrialcraft with buildcraft and railcraft (and optifine).


    EDIT: ... i also use NEI now with the experimental build (so maybe also add CodeChicken Core)

  • Quote

    you, calling me a liar and being generally unable to write a post without using swear words, are a good example for users who turn the whole discussion into a flame war.


    It is illogical for someone to hold an anonymous stranger accountable for the emotional volatility of others. Expecting me to do so is a highly unreasonable expectation...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

  • i dont hold you responsible for anyones emotional volatility. i also dont think that "Two" guy was especially volatile - he showed more patience than can be expected by the average forum user. i hold you responsible for your tendency towards bashing people, who are trying to post an opinion that differs from your own.

  • I hold you responsible for your tendency towards bashing people, who are trying to post an opinion that differs from your own.


    Since when has heavy handedness been considered a crime?

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.