[GregTech-5][1.7.10-FORGE-1355+][Unofficial but approved Port][Stable] Even GT5 Experimental is slowly getting stable.

  • It doesnt make that much sense on how air pollution affects all machines though.


    It should affect only things that burn (reduces air oxygen quality), like boilers.


    Rain would corrode blocks away if the pollution is too high (slowly, all the way down to bedrock) , requiring a special acid-proof block to protect yourself.


    Ah yes, good old realism.


    This is an area where balance takes precedence. The point here isn't to model a fun and interesting pollution simulation. Its to make higher tier machinery less useless, period. I employ a bit of handwavium and say "all machines are subject to particulate matter in the air. So smog can clog anything with moving parts, which is everything."


    I might pick a very few machines and render them completely immune, but it really breaks the target objective. And it would require updating every wiki entry to indicate whether a machine is immune or subject to pollution. Its easier to just say "pollution screws with your machines."


  • No hard limits. I believe in soft controls in game design rather than strict ones.


    Short verison:

    • Machines will produce varying amounts of pollution per cycle into the chunk and dimension. Stuff like Lava Boilers will be big offenders.
    • The air will cleanse itself of Y pollution per cycle. This way you can always produce SOME pollution and it has zero impact.
    • Chunks will dissipate Z pollution per cycle into adjacent chunks.
    • Machines (possibly any GT machine in your base) will regularly check the pollution level and if its too high, have a chance to "miss" a tick production wise. So energy will be spent, but nothing will happen during that tick.
    • Higher tier machines will generally produce far less pollution than lower tech machines!!


    After that I'll entertain all the usual requests about dying crops and acid rain and health impacts, etc etc. Tech balance first though.


    Any concern of griefing chunks by secretly placing pollution sources next to protected chunks? Perhaps tie the pollution creation to the owner of the pollution sources so if a player can't place a block in a chunk then his pollution can't affect that chunk.


  • Any concern of griefing chunks by secretly placing pollution sources next to protected chunks? Perhaps tie the pollution creation to the owner of the pollution sources so if a player can't place a block in a chunk then his pollution can't affect that chunk.


    Hmm. I don't *think* its a concern. That's a pretty weak griefing. Also, I wouldn't want to make "cooperative" bases process pollution separately. (Maybe this is really uncommon on the kirara server? In most of my server experiences, many bases are dual-operated)


    Attacking your concern from a separate angle though, I'd love to explore ways to provide easy feedback on polluting sources. I'm not sure what the best answer to that, but I could envision maybe adding a pair of goggles that you could wear and it would show polluting sources really strongly, with particular offenders standing out the most. That would give you a tool to remove the griefing machine.

  • What about an analytics scanner googles.
    It would show info of every block within range (similar to how the tricorder does, but in a more HUD-y way).
    One of the modes would be pollution scanner.


    We can always think of ways to screw most machines in a way or another, based on pollution, not just always some random "machines work inefficient".


    Ore washer would require distilled water if the pollution level is too high because acidic water can destroy the byproducts
    Macerators would require lubricant as pollution is corroding the grinder blades
    Extractors would produce ashes 10% of the time because pollution is clogging the extractor's pumps.
    Thermal centrifuges would require nitrogen gas (inert environment) to centrifuge.


    Higher tier machines have a higher pollution threshold, with the highest tier level not be affected by pollution at all.


  • That very last item I definitely want to do.
    Some of that other stuff just flat-out wouldn't work due to the work involved (for recipe/slot reasons). That said, I don't actually mind trying to make machines "break" in more interesting ways. We'll see how it goes :)

  • How about a lategame (fusion age) machine to clean additional pollution from the air? In fusion age it wouldnt change the balance...

  • You shouldn't be producing pollution if your source of energy is fusion...


    Now instead of ways to clean it, we should have upgrades that when installed on any polluting machine, reduces the pollution output. Those would be costly.

  • I think he means reversing the damage that's done. I agree it should be reversible so you don't artificially throttle your race to the finish to avoid living in a permanent hellscape.

  • BloodAsp please fix nugget insertion to packager via chest buffer asap. Its really annoying to craft them into ingots by hands.

    Ideal Industrial Assembly (IIA) - my pretty hard industrial modpack based on GT5.09

    Идеальная Индустриальная Сборка (ИИС) - довольно сложный сугубо индустриальный модпак, базирующийся на GT5.09

    http://sapientmail.wixsite.com/minecraft

  • How about a lategame (fusion age) machine to clean additional pollution from the air? In fusion age it wouldnt change the balance...


    You shouldn't be producing pollution if your source of energy is fusion...


    Now instead of ways to clean it, we should have upgrades that when installed on any polluting machine, reduces the pollution output. Those would be costly.


    I think he means reversing the damage that's done. I agree it should be reversible so you don't artificially throttle your race to the finish to avoid living in a permanent hellscape.


    Notions of pollution scrubbers had already been raised and discarded, honestly. There was no room in the balance flow to allow someone to create pollution in one way and simply offset it in the other.


    That said, there's two good points here.
    1) Like SpwnX says, by the fusion age you shouldn't be producing pollution anyway.
    2) LIke willis said, what about just cleaning what's there. I can't really predict this well, but I don't *think* it would be an issue. Nobody's going to let pollution get that far outta control because your industry would grind to a halt. So it should completely clean itself out in a few ticks anyway. That said, what if someone's pollution really is totally outta whack? Maybe a pollution scrubber would be a good late-game tool in that event.

  • Do you already have a list of the machines that will produce pollution?
    I understand that boilers and furnaces (coal only?) will.
    Gas and Oil generators will do as well, I assume?


    I am curious if the only source will be burners.
    If items couldn't be so easily discarded, Radioactive and heavy chemicals waste management could be kinda of interesting...

  • Do you already have a list of the machines that will produce pollution?
    I understand that boilers and furnaces (coal only?) will.
    Gas and Oil generators will do as well, I assume?


    I am curious if the only source will be burners.
    If items couldn't be so easily discarded, Radioactive and heavy chemicals waste management could be kinda of interesting...

    Could work like the nuclear waste of reactor craft, the waste doesn´t despawn, gives you radioactivity effect and you have to store it in a special drum, until it decays. Would make nuclear power less OP.

  • We'd need a special nuclear waste handler. Else people will cheat and destroy whatever fluid/item produced.


    One idea is to make Tcentrifuging depleted fuel rods produce nuclear waste fluid that must be stored on a special tank. If that waste fluid is within a non reinforced tank, it will leak, > permanently < turning blocks around it into radioactive blocks that can not be destroyed, those only decay over a long, long time.

  • Yeah, today would be too easy.
    Liquids can be voided removing the container, and solids can be just dropped on the world (on lava preferably , because is fun).

  • Do you already have a list of the machines that will produce pollution?
    I understand that boilers and furnaces (coal only?) will.
    Gas and Oil generators will do as well, I assume?


    Basically anything that hinders technical progression, to vastly varying degrees.


    The worst offenders would be bronze coal and lava boilers. Steel boilers (are those a thing?) wouldn't pollute as much. Large boilers would pollute even less.


    LV machines in general would produce a tiny bit of pollution. Not much. MV wouldn't produce as much. HV+ might not produce any at all unless it particularly makes sense.


    diesel/gas generators would produce some pollution, again with higher tiers being more efficient for pollution reduction. Again, not a whole lot. I don't want to discourage the use of these when its appropriate to use them, but I do eventually want to encourage peeps to progress towards fission if/when they decide to generate lots of power.


    I'm not convinced I can make fission produce pollution since its an IC2 thing rather than a GT thing. Its possible I can make reprocessing fuel rods generate some pollution, but to be clear this would just be the same pollution as everything else, not some new (un-streamlined) mechanic.

  • Ok, confirmed high pressure coal boiler is a thing. Dunno about ya'all but I've never built a high-pressure-steam-anything (although I know people who build the hp lava boiler)


    Needs to be said: whatever numbers I use for machines generating pollution will be CONFIGURABLE. Don't panic because you think I'm nerfing anything.


    Also needs to be said, the DEFAULT values are not going to hinder anyone who already plays "fair". This means most people won't be affected by pollution at all unless they're in the habit of powering an entire city with lava. Then, yes, you'll be screwed (by default).
    However if you're the type of player who likes to upgrade power generation technology, then pollution will be a non-issue for you. It won't factor much into your game at all.

  • I have some thoughts about pollution:
    1. I agree that higher-tier machines should produce less pollution, but it might make sense for them to be more susceptible to it, since they operate faster and presumably have more intricate moving parts.
    2. Would confinement of the machines affect the pollution, encouraging base designs that are more open to allow the pollution to dissipate?
    3. I'm concerned that instead of encouraging people to progress toward fission/fusion, the pollution mechanic might encourage using power generation from other mods instead (e.g. IC2 semifluid generators, Railcraft steam turbines), since as you mentioned it might not be possible to make non-GT generators cause pollution.
    4. I presume the pollution caused by multiblocks would be controlled by the tier of the muffler hatch.

  • Ventilation would be nice to be required, besides the chunk pollution, burning stuff would produce smog air blocks that floats upwards and can accumulate (like Thaumcraft gaseous taint), if you're in it, you suffocate.