[GregTech-5][1.7.10-FORGE-1355+][Unofficial but approved Port][Stable] Even GT5 Experimental is slowly getting stable.

If there is more to your ideas than already expressed, please share them. I am always willing to listen to other's ideas, even if they don't jive with my own. Even the three of us on Axle's server that have spoken up play very different ways, but we try to keep our way of playing from impacting others. Everything Forced by GT has had a reason for it with a benefit. less planks from logs forces you to make a saw or deal with the nerf. Then at higher tiers you get ways to get extra planks from the same logs. Circuits in GT5 is forced to get to the next tier, but at that next tier you get better, materials, more byproducts, and better speeds. you can stay at bronze age forever, if you choose, but there are benefits to get to the electrical age, and so on. I don't see as the pollution you are talking about fits into that style, that we all have come to expect from GT. In my opinion if you see this as a one sided idea why not make it as a addon rather than implementing straight into the game.

I hope this will help you not to feel ganged up on, and not take your ball and go home.

np.

If anyone here cares, I don't think I posted it here yet: This is what that fork + pull request amounts to:
http://imgur.com/gpEjAsY
(Applies to input/output bus/hatches, plus mufflers)

Next I need to look into math problems with the LHE and fusion mechanics.

Quote from bear989

If there is more to your ideas than already expressed, please share them. I am always willing to listen to other's ideas, even if they don't jive with my own. Even the three of us on Axle's server that have spoken up play very different ways, but we try to keep our way of playing from impacting others. Everything Forced by GT has had a reason for it with a benefit. less planks from logs forces you to make a saw or deal with the nerf. Then at higher tiers you get ways to get extra planks from the same logs. Circuits in GT5 is forced to get to the next tier, but at that next tier you get better, materials, more byproducts, and better speeds. you can stay at bronze age forever, if you choose, but there are benefits to get to the electrical age, and so on. I don't see as the pollution you are talking about fits into that style, that we all have come to expect from GT. In my opinion if you see this as a one sided idea why not make it as a addon rather than implementing straight into the game.

Read above. See where I outline my ideas, and see where I indicate strongly positive or fence-sitting opinions on various ideas. Anything I like, I'll add unless experience teaches me I can't add it despite liking it.

I have no concerns that its a one-sided idea. These are mechanics compiled after months of discussion. As a developer, I work iteratively: Get the core mechanic in place first. Then round it out. Blood asp has ideas about freaking pollution clouds that roam around causing shit. First things first though.

It makes sense to keep it disabled by default. Making it an addon is an idea I'm floating, but frankly I want to stay directly helping GT5u itself as much as possible.

Quote from bear989

I hope this will help you not to feel ganged up on, and not take your ball and go home.

I think I'll manage.

Seriously, I'm taking my pollution ball back to camp where people give a shit, but that's like 5% of the big picture. People care about fusion generation, chemical reaction recipes, logistics and stuff; pollution is pretty small game.

edit:
"Everything Forced by GT has had a reason for it with a benefit. less planks from logs forces you to make a saw or deal with the nerf. Then at higher tiers you get ways to get extra planks from the same logs. Circuits in GT5 is forced to get to the next tier, but at that next tier you get better, materials, more byproducts, and better speeds. you can stay at bronze age forever, if you choose, but there are benefits to get to the electrical age, and so on. I don't see as the pollution you are talking about fits into that style, that we all have come to expect from GT. In my opinion if you see this as a one sided idea why not make it as a addon rather than implementing straight into the game. "

I'm glad we share the same ideas of how progression should work, and how each step should both encourage you and instruct you to improve.

Yo are multiple input hatches on large turbines working? I'm getting fucky results. When feeding two hatches it will only spin for a split second then stop for a few seconds. It never builds up speed. I don't think I've made any mistakes in the setup.

Here is another fun fact:
it only takes 4.5 B/s of hot coolant to make 60 B/s of superheated steam in the LHE. Much like lava this input is lower than expected for the given output. I'm not complaining but in this case the difference is significant (25%).

Note: IRL, steam expands to as much as 110 times it's volume as water when heated. This considerably extreme expansion is why steam remains one of the most primary core methods of power generation from heat. Other materials do exist which expand similarly much, but not many do, very few do moreso, and none are practical, feasible, or cost-effective in any significant volume, mostly due to most being gas at all but the most extremely low temperatures, thus making it impossible to make a positive-output system due to the power requirements to cool it to liquid again, etc. etc.

Steam is amazing.

Quote from Pyure

2) I looked at the numbers and in many cases I'd either have to a) drastically slow down low-tech processed, or b) figure out how to make multiple processes happen per tick at the high-tech level.

Сoefficient can be 2x not 4x, or even 1.5x. Numbers does not matter. All tiers should have same amount of eU per item.

PS
I'm interested in idea of pollution, but it shouldn't be the way to force players to go to next tier. Next tier should be better by itself.

Quote from axlegear

Note: IRL, steam expands to as much as 110 times it's volume as water when heated

This might be true for some pressures however for instance at 225 bars of pressure (as in the steam generator) the fluid is in a supercritical state which basically means you can't distinguish between gas and fluid and gas anymore. The volume it takes is basically the same.

In short at 225 bars of pressure 1 kg of water and 1 kg of steam has roughly the same volume. And as the pressure decreases the steam will take more and more space untill at atmospheric pressure it will have a density of about 0,59 kg/cubic meter while water is around 1000 kg/cubic meter. So in those terms the volume increase from water to steam should be around 1700 times at normal pressure and temperature.

Quote from Blood Asp

Well, the way reactorcraft destroys the nature with an added fog/smog effect would be nice. But that is just the visual, not the functional part. Both are nesseary for an good implementation.

Well if tree farm nerfs is the primary goal then you just have to aggressively destroy wood and sapling blocks.

Feature request: replace an empty drill's battery with full.
Simplest implementation would be:
On shift-rightclick:
Ensure that drill's inner battery is empty.
Search player's inventory for exactly the same battery and "move" it's energy to drill.

Quote from Xarses

ldr; Adding pollution for progression == bad, adding pollution on enhance realism and immersion into the GT theme == great

While pollution is a good subject to address, "pollution" simply doesn't effect all machines the same way. Using "pollution" to force tier advancement is equally contentious (my first thought is, "ya, no") Using it to broadly impact machine performance is simply not reasonable.

Simply a single "pollution" wont address the subject correctly. Air pollution should lead to smog -> acid rain -> water pollution -> ground pollution. "Pollution" Broadly should would mostly impact biological entities. Pollution should not be singularly to encourage tier progression. In fact properly laid out, it can encourage both progression, machine selection, and ecological awareness. Progression of energy generation may be driven by reducing air pollution, while higher tier production machines should make more of it. Lending to ecological thoughtful building, including cleaning the pollution up properly before it makes it into the ecosystem

Pollution creation:
* Air pollution for the most part should only be created by machines that burn (high emission) and melt (medium - low) emission
* Water pollution would be further produced by machines that consume water. washers (high emission), chemical reactors (high emission), furnace boilers (low)
* Ground pollution could be generated by storage or presence of hazardous materials, this also lends to contaminated biomes

Impact to machinery:
* Air pollution would impact machines that require clean air to operate: solar machines (high), burning generators (low-med), chip fabricators (high), melting (low)
* Water pollution would impact machines that expect clean water to operate: washers (med-high), steam (from not distilled water) (very high)
* Ground pollution would mostly not impact machines as it leads to air / water pollution levels
* Machines that don't have these requirements should be un-impacted by respective pollution

Impact to bio(me):
* Air pollution at lower levels (smog) should lead to quicker exhaustion and slow plant growth. At higher levels it should lead to acid rain that should damage any entity out side
* Water pollution at lower levels should reduce air capacity under water, and slow plant growth. At higher levels young animals should not grow up, it should increase the chance of having acid rain, submerging in water should cause damage, including rapid loss of breath under water.
* Ground pollution at low levels should impact movement speed. At high levels animals cant breed, ground should be visibly tainted, dangerous and require manual cleanup, mobs should spawn during the day. later mutated and / or aggressive passive mobs should occur including angry cows that attack player and other passives (killing off the heard).

Generally the more toxic the environment the more hostile and visibly disgusting it should become.

Pollution progression
starting with air pollution by burning things we should start to see smog generate in the environment and slight impact to water pollution levels and even lesser impact to ground pollution. As the player starts using machines that have higher impact to water pollution (or heavy air-pollution over time) we start to see impact into the water system, sustained pollution here creates high impact to ground contamination and the relationship between air and water pollution should be maintained (A high water pollution will result in air pollution). A similar relationship would exist between ground pollution and water pollution, and by extension air pollution. For example an air index of 100 might result in water pollution of 10 and ground of 1 (random numbers to show some relation) (after some time of it saying at 100) if we have a ground pollution of 10, eventually water and air would become 100 and 1000 if not abated by controlling measures.

Distribution, containment
Distribution similar to your prior note makes sense. The source of pollution should spread at some rate at some logarithmic rate. (similar to the reactor heat exchanger) Chunks not creating pollution should absorb some of it naturally (not very much) however would still be impacted by progression noted above. Pollution should be containable with the right tools, IRL we can minimize the production of air, water and ground contamination and there for the same should apply. For instance we can limit the amount of emissions by adding catalytic converters to ensure that pollution particulates are converted to more inter substances before emission.

Pushing tech tier
So now putting this all together in the stone age we should only see pushing in the air contamination and little in the way of impact. Starting in the bronze age we should see increased impact into the air system and some into the water system. Steel by carbon burning should see massive air pollution. Starting in the electric age we should start to see massive water pollution, mostly from ore washing and chemical reaction. and So on. Higher tier machines of the same variety should actually produce more pollution. So how do we encourage moving forward? Abatement and containment tools should only become available with products from higher tier machines. Things like simple carbon filters may help marginally with water pollution but something like a catalytic converter requires expensive and rare materials that we can only produce in quantity from pollution crating processing. So if you want to live in that wasteland you created from only using a tree farm and charcoal, you can, but it's going to be hard.

Display More

I really like this Idea. Its both challenging and realistic....

I agree that there are many players that try to exploit certain mechanics, and should take the time to advance or work within the spirit of the game/mod. BUT again forcing someone to play a different way that we see as right is WRONG! making it harder to do such large scale setups make sense, but forcing it on them isn't in my opinion. personally I would do a TFC style no bone mealing of trees/plants myself, witch would stop most tree farming, other than the forestry and maybe a few others. and don't get me started on MFR, to me trying to play with it and GT is just bad form. so if someone is doing that, then there is really no helping them. also Axle's idea of pollution would defiantly help with stopping, or hindering this kind of game play with the air pollution caused from burning all that charcoal.

Some of the ideas being tossed around to address treefarm abuse are good but they've been considered and rejected for code limitation reasons.

Quote from willis936

Here is another fun fact:
it only takes 4.5 B/s of hot coolant to make 60 B/s of superheated steam in the LHE. Much like lava this input is lower than expected for the given output. I'm not complaining but in this case the difference is significant (25%).

How does this play against the numbers I posted earlier in the week? I pointed out that the LHE seems to be doing what its supposed to do, minus the x2 difference. Does your findings correspond? (Sorry, I can't triple check atm, I'm at work)

Quote from Sapient

Сoefficient can be 2x not 4x, or even 1.5x. Numbers does not matter. All tiers should have same amount of eU per item.

I agree, but iirc the machine works on energy-per-time. To make it the same amount of eU per item, either the energy needs to drop, or the speed needs to increase. Often we can't make the energy drop due to tiering reasons, which leaves us with increasing the speed.
Feel free to correct any misconceptions here, I haven't looked at this code.

Quote from Sapient

PS
I'm interested in idea of pollution, but it shouldn't be the way to force players to go to next tier. Next tier should be better by itself.

Good news: no pollution plans force anything on anyone. Forced tiering is heavily linear, lacks dynamicism, and constitutes what we called a "hard control." I only develop soft controls.

In this case, a player might notice a small decrease in industrial performance if the only way they generate power is lava, and if they try to produce two-to-three tiers above their current tier worth of lava power. So, trying to produce HV-type power during the steam age.

Since nobody needs to use lava to get anywhere, they're not forced to do anything. They can still use lots of lava. Or some. Or none. I personally use mostly filthy charcoal and a bit of solar during the bronze age. Creosote and coal coke if RC is present.

Quote from Blood Asp

Soo much text about pollution...

I discussed about that with pyure weeks ago and was more or less fine with the ideas. That treefarms are used as primary fuel production until fusion by most players is something i personally dislike and the pullution seems like a sensable way to change that.

My own fist idea was only using poison and stuff against entities and later adding some visuals once the base is done. But that has the downside that players tend to work around the effect and not going the intended way. Maybe they will simply place energy gen far enough from the player so the effect is not felt anymore?

Pyures idea about affecting also the machines is an easy and effective way to prevent players from going around the mechanic, so i'm not opposed. One main point i would like to see but not yet know how to programm is slowing down the growth of plants like trees, crops and anything else like that.

I feel like a character in the walking dead, standing on the roof of a van surrounded by zombies.

Quote from SpwnX

So the majority agrees that pollution hindering you tech wise is bad. It is unrealistic, too simplistic for GT gameplay and uninteresting, its flat out boring.
Does that simplistic pollution mechanism inspire you to improve?
Yes it does, but not in a good way, since it doesn't feel you're beating an actual obstacle but a mere game rule that you must follow or you'll be penalized. 

Making pollution harm stuff and make environment hazardous is not pure flavor. It is an - interesting - obstacle that has serious consequences if not dealt properly.
Want to spam low tech lava boilers? Let people go crazy with it, however they'll face problems that will not stop most of his/her factory from running, but will definetely prevent him/her from living there.

On the other hand, the great news is that the majority agrees that the pollution scheme is interesting, inspires you to improve, and is flat out exciting. Everyone on this thread? Nope, there's a few really pissed off people who won't tolerate the fact that I can't code all their conflicting hopes and dreams on initial rollout.

Friendly reminder folks: People said they didn't want to discuss it here anymore. This is the last time I'm indulging in destructive criticism on this thread. If I say I can't do environment impacts during initial rollout and people lose their shit...screw em. There's a long lineup of genuinely good peeps who have constructive things to contribute. I code for them. There seems to be an unfortunate number of people here who prefer to use insults and destructive comments. Tearing peeps down is lame. You're no longer involved in my discussions on the topic.