[GregTech-5][1.7.10-FORGE-1355+][Unofficial but approved Port][Stable] Even GT5 Experimental is slowly getting stable.

  • I'm starting to observe a trend where more and more peeps on the IC2 forum seems to be leaning more in favour of an aesthetic or realistic pollution theme. Its running counter to the previous discussions I've had. But when even peeps like Spankx start to speak against the balanced design its hard to ignore and I have little interest in pushing balance on a crowd that doesn't want it.


    What I'm probably going to do is simply disable pollution by default so nobody gets affected by it unless they explicitly want to, at least until I can be talked around to incorporating some of the peripheral ideas.


    Alternatively I may modularize it and let someone else code a distinct, more colorful version. There's zero reason my version needs to be the Only True Way. Blood in particular has said he might do a version one day.

  • That's what i'd reccomend. It's pretty large, this camp that dislike your super-simplified polution variable. It really, truly, does not add to gameplay. I understand that you play GT for completely different reasons than everyone else, your points are made. However, I am trying to point out the larger community of GT players who play for realism and immersion and would be negatively impacted by a ham-handed pollution approach. I'd like to quote a PM from bear here:
    "[8:43:56 PM] bear hamman: if pollution gets implemented the way pyre is talking I will disable it in my SP world. Forced progression is not right
    [8:45:39 PM] bear hamman: we all play our own ways and there is enuff force progression in the curcuits. witch I don't mind. but this is just forcing players to play someone elses way"


    Your way does not feel balanced (and whether it is or not is another argument entirely- one I also disagree with, but that's a digression)- it feels to players like a shoehorned requirement. This will feel aggressive and make players feel victimized. It's a discouragement, not an encouragement. A penalty, not a reward. A problem, not an obstacle. Does this make sense?


    Also, ignoring your attempts to get me to argue or feel bad, i'll note that my comment about 'suggesting coding is insulting' is meant generally, not specifically. Anyone could have said that to me, or anyone could have said that to someone else, and it would be the same. Telling people 'Do it yourself, then' is bad taste. That's all. It's not a personal attack, it's just a factually bad idea to do.. Think of it in another context. Say, you go to a grocery store, and the checkout person tells you to bag your groceries yourself, because it's not company policy to bag for you. (Which is the case for almost all stores, actually! Certainly wal-mart and target). However, how does that make the customer feel to be told that so flippantly? Pretty bad. Whether or not it's your intention, what we get from that response is 'I'm lazy, do it yourself'.

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • That's what i'd reccomend. It's pretty large, this camp that dislike your super-simplified polution variable. It really, truly, does not add to gameplay. I understand that you play GT for completely different reasons than everyone else, your points are made. However, I am trying to point out the larger community of GT players who play for realism and immersion and would be negatively impacted by a ham-handed pollution approach. I'd like to quote a PM from bear here:
    "[8:43:56 PM] bear hamman: if pollution gets implemented the way pyre is talking I will disable it in my SP world. Forced progression is not right
    [8:45:39 PM] bear hamman: we all play our own ways and there is enuff force progression in the curcuits. witch I don't mind. but this is just forcing players to play someone elses way"


    Your way does not feel balanced (and whether it is or not is another argument entirely- one I also disagree with, but that's a digression)- it feels to players like a shoehorned requirement. This will feel aggressive and make players feel victimized. It's a discouragement, not an encouragement. A penalty, not a reward. A problem, not an obstacle. Does this make sense?


    Yep, I'm convinced. I have a in-depth, well-streamlined and designed pollution mechanic that adds an awful lot to gameplay. Its a strong encouragement, let's players make informed decisions, providing risk/rewards that players enjoy. I can certainly see where you're misunderstanding the design and that's a shame, but we can't do much about that.


    I understand my large crowd doesn't share the same values as your large crowd, and I'm happy to remove my crowd-sourcing on the topic from this forum, no worries. Consider it closed. For those who have voiced support and want to stay involved in the discussion, please pm me or hang around the infitech2 thread on the FTB forum. I strongly value all constructive opinions as always.


    As a conciliation, phase 1 pollution will definitely be disabled by default. As another, once we start adding the secondary stuff, I'll probably mention it here so I can get an idea of whether it should be enabled by default or not.



    Also, ignoring your attempts to get me to argue or feel bad, i'll note that my comment about 'suggesting coding is insulting' is meant generally, not specifically. Anyone could have said that to me, or anyone could have said that to someone else, and it would be the same. Telling people 'Do it yourself, then' is bad taste. That's all. It's not a personal attack, it's just a factually bad idea to do.. Think of it in another context. Say, you go to a grocery store, and the checkout person tells you to bag your groceries yourself, because it's not company policy to bag for you. (Which is the case for almost all stores, actually! Certainly wal-mart and target). However, how does that make the customer feel to be told that so flippantly? Pretty bad. Whether or not it's your intention, what we get from that response is 'I'm lazy, do it yourself'.


    Yep that would suck. Good news though.


    I'm not your checkout person. I'm not your bagging person. I'm not the janitor. I'm not anyone with a legal, moral, ethical or traditional reason to bag your groceries. I'm a random guy who wandered by, helped an elderly lady with her groceries, and was told by several passersby that I don't do it the way they want me to.


    I share these designs because people were interested. I'd still like to keep people involved as much as possible. But that doesn't make me a slave: I'll code what I like for a) myself, b) genuinely good peeps, and c) nobody else.


    Period.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Pyure ().

  • I'm sorry that you aren't interested in listening to the opinions of others, and have taken a sour grapes approach. I'm only trying to provide constructive criticism. I wish that I could present my opinions in a manner you would consider. I had, and still have, no intention to upsetting or attacking you, only to give opinions on how I feel Gregtech 5U should progress for the interests of me and the players on my server, as well as the community. At present, I have only heard your own opinion regarding support for a simplified pollution mechanic, thus I cannot make any other conclusion than that it would be unpopular. Most I have spoken to feel it would be not just unpopular, but disruptive. That's all.

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • No worries. Understood. Topic closed.

    Unless i'm mistaken, this is Bloody Asp's thread? Wouldn't he be the one to decide to close it or not? Or decide how GT5U progresses? Or am I completely mistaken on who's developing it?

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • Unless i'm mistaken, this is Bloody Asp's thread? Wouldn't he be the one to decide to close it or not? Or decide how GT5U progresses? Or am I completely mistaken on who's developing it?


    Sorry, my bad for lack of clarity.


    The topic "What are you planning to do with pollution" someone asked me several pages ago is closed. Obviously I'm not trying to close this thread (on the contrary I need discussion on several github issues and this is one of the places I'd typically do it)


    Blood Asp is the lead developer for GT5u. He's been trying to give me the same power (on the main branch) and I don't want it.
    All I'm willing to do is submit pull requests. So I'll be going down the list of issues and trying to address what I can one by one.


    As a learning opportunity: A "pull request" is when I write code, and ask the lead developer to "pull" it into the main codebase.


    Here's a list of stuff that needs attention:
    https://github.com/Blood-Asp/GT5-Unofficial/issues


    Note blood's name in the url. Anyone can have a "fork" of this code. For instance, I added a bunch of changes a couple nights ago:
    https://github.com/pyure/GT5-Unofficial


    (If you're curious: the input/output hatches are now more informative in their names and tooltips)

  • Ah, thank you for the clarification. I was unfamiliar with some of those terms. Wish I knew how to code well enough to come up with stuff. There's a million 'tiny things' and a few dozen 'big things' i'd love to see done, even if just as a seperate 'add-on'/plugin mod.

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • If there is more to your ideas than already expressed, please share them. I am always willing to listen to other's ideas, even if they don't jive with my own. Even the three of us on Axle's server that have spoken up play very different ways, but we try to keep our way of playing from impacting others. Everything Forced by GT has had a reason for it with a benefit. less planks from logs forces you to make a saw or deal with the nerf. Then at higher tiers you get ways to get extra planks from the same logs. Circuits in GT5 is forced to get to the next tier, but at that next tier you get better, materials, more byproducts, and better speeds. you can stay at bronze age forever, if you choose, but there are benefits to get to the electrical age, and so on. I don't see as the pollution you are talking about fits into that style, that we all have come to expect from GT. In my opinion if you see this as a one sided idea why not make it as a addon rather than implementing straight into the game.


    I hope this will help you not to feel ganged up on, and not take your ball and go home.

  • np.


    If anyone here cares, I don't think I posted it here yet: This is what that fork + pull request amounts to:
    http://imgur.com/gpEjAsY
    (Applies to input/output bus/hatches, plus mufflers)


    Next I need to look into math problems with the LHE and fusion mechanics.

  • If there is more to your ideas than already expressed, please share them. I am always willing to listen to other's ideas, even if they don't jive with my own. Even the three of us on Axle's server that have spoken up play very different ways, but we try to keep our way of playing from impacting others. Everything Forced by GT has had a reason for it with a benefit. less planks from logs forces you to make a saw or deal with the nerf. Then at higher tiers you get ways to get extra planks from the same logs. Circuits in GT5 is forced to get to the next tier, but at that next tier you get better, materials, more byproducts, and better speeds. you can stay at bronze age forever, if you choose, but there are benefits to get to the electrical age, and so on. I don't see as the pollution you are talking about fits into that style, that we all have come to expect from GT. In my opinion if you see this as a one sided idea why not make it as a addon rather than implementing straight into the game.


    Read above. See where I outline my ideas, and see where I indicate strongly positive or fence-sitting opinions on various ideas. Anything I like, I'll add unless experience teaches me I can't add it despite liking it.


    I have no concerns that its a one-sided idea. These are mechanics compiled after months of discussion. As a developer, I work iteratively: Get the core mechanic in place first. Then round it out. Blood asp has ideas about freaking pollution clouds that roam around causing shit. First things first though.


    It makes sense to keep it disabled by default. Making it an addon is an idea I'm floating, but frankly I want to stay directly helping GT5u itself as much as possible.



    I hope this will help you not to feel ganged up on, and not take your ball and go home.


    I think I'll manage.


    Seriously, I'm taking my pollution ball back to camp where people give a shit, but that's like 5% of the big picture. People care about fusion generation, chemical reaction recipes, logistics and stuff; pollution is pretty small game.


    edit:
    "Everything Forced by GT has had a reason for it with a benefit. less planks from logs forces you to make a saw or deal with the nerf. Then at higher tiers you get ways to get extra planks from the same logs. Circuits in GT5 is forced to get to the next tier, but at that next tier you get better, materials, more byproducts, and better speeds. you can stay at bronze age forever, if you choose, but there are benefits to get to the electrical age, and so on. I don't see as the pollution you are talking about fits into that style, that we all have come to expect from GT. In my opinion if you see this as a one sided idea why not make it as a addon rather than implementing straight into the game. "


    I'm glad we share the same ideas of how progression should work, and how each step should both encourage you and instruct you to improve.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Pyure ().

  • Yo are multiple input hatches on large turbines working? I'm getting fucky results. When feeding two hatches it will only spin for a split second then stop for a few seconds. It never builds up speed. I don't think I've made any mistakes in the setup.

  • Here is another fun fact:
    it only takes 4.5 B/s of hot coolant to make 60 B/s of superheated steam in the LHE. Much like lava this input is lower than expected for the given output. I'm not complaining but in this case the difference is significant (25%).

  • Note: IRL, steam expands to as much as 110 times it's volume as water when heated. This considerably extreme expansion is why steam remains one of the most primary core methods of power generation from heat. Other materials do exist which expand similarly much, but not many do, very few do moreso, and none are practical, feasible, or cost-effective in any significant volume, mostly due to most being gas at all but the most extremely low temperatures, thus making it impossible to make a positive-output system due to the power requirements to cool it to liquid again, etc. etc.


    Steam is amazing.

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • 2) I looked at the numbers and in many cases I'd either have to a) drastically slow down low-tech processed, or b) figure out how to make multiple processes happen per tick at the high-tech level.

    Сoefficient can be 2x not 4x, or even 1.5x. Numbers does not matter. All tiers should have same amount of eU per item.


    PS
    I'm interested in idea of pollution, but it shouldn't be the way to force players to go to next tier. Next tier should be better by itself.

    Ideal Industrial Assembly (IIA) - my pretty hard industrial modpack based on GT5.09

    Идеальная Индустриальная Сборка (ИИС) - довольно сложный сугубо индустриальный модпак, базирующийся на GT5.09

    http://sapientmail.wixsite.com/minecraft

  • So the majority agrees that pollution hindering you tech wise is bad. It is unrealistic, too simplistic for GT gameplay and uninteresting, its flat out boring.
    Does that simplistic pollution mechanism inspire you to improve?
    Yes it does, but not in a good way, since it doesn't feel you're beating an actual obstacle but a mere game rule that you must follow or you'll be penalized.


    Making pollution harm stuff and make environment hazardous is not pure flavor. It is an - interesting - obstacle that has serious consequences if not dealt properly.
    Want to spam low tech lava boilers? Let people go crazy with it, however they'll face problems that will not stop most of his/her factory from running, but will definetely prevent him/her from living there.


    That means he/she is forced to control the pollution or will be literally locked out of the region, somewhat similar to how chernobyl and fukushima does, except that we can remedy the situation.


    ----


    Ideas for a farther future, reproduction of chernobyl and fukushima in GT.
    Exploding reactors will contaminate chunks with radiation pollution making it extremely hazardous, sometimes so much that not even a hazmat suit will be enough to protect you.

  • Note: IRL, steam expands to as much as 110 times it's volume as water when heated

    This might be true for some pressures however for instance at 225 bars of pressure (as in the steam generator) the fluid is in a supercritical state which basically means you can't distinguish between gas and fluid and gas anymore. The volume it takes is basically the same.


    In short at 225 bars of pressure 1 kg of water and 1 kg of steam has roughly the same volume. And as the pressure decreases the steam will take more and more space untill at atmospheric pressure it will have a density of about 0,59 kg/cubic meter while water is around 1000 kg/cubic meter. So in those terms the volume increase from water to steam should be around 1700 times at normal pressure and temperature.

    A question that sometimes drives me hazy; am i or are the other crazy

  • Soo much text about pollution...


    I discussed about that with pyure weeks ago and was more or less fine with the ideas. That treefarms are used as primary fuel production until fusion by most players is something i personally dislike and the pullution seems like a sensable way to change that.


    My own fist idea was only using poison and stuff against entities and later adding some visuals once the base is done. But that has the downside that players tend to work around the effect and not going the intended way. Maybe they will simply place energy gen far enough from the player so the effect is not felt anymore?


    Pyures idea about affecting also the machines is an easy and effective way to prevent players from going around the mechanic, so i'm not opposed. One main point i would like to see but not yet know how to programm is slowing down the growth of plants like trees, crops and anything else like that.


    A mechanic to more or less prevent generatorspam is something GT certainly needs.


    And by spam i do not mean something like 5 or 10 but 50 or 100.
    Recommending certain fuel types for certain Tiers also sounds good to me.
    Solid Fuels for Steam/LV Age.
    Liquid/ Gas Fuels for MV/HV Age.
    Nuclear for EV/IV Age.
    Fusion for LuV+ Age.


    I'm currently working on making oil/gas sustainable, later Nuclear will get boosted for 2000 EU/t and more output.


    Natrually that should not totally be forced on the players, but at last become the most efficient way to do stuff.


    GT5 will get more, likely controversial, changes for those that do not like that, i will continue to maintain the 5.08 version.

  • Going around the mechanic by having pollution elsewhere is still a big logistics problem and is one of the two options (deal with the problem directly or push it elsewhere).
    Unless you have cheaty item/fluid/energy teleporation devices, that is.


    You can also make pollution be produced by processing machines, not only energy generators.


    Also, having a heavily polluted region must be made ugly, to not look pretty and dangerous.
    Abuse it enough and you might not even be able to get close to it until everything goes to a halt, and bad choice if its an infinitely sustaining system.