[GregTech-5][1.7.10-FORGE-1355+][Unofficial but approved Port][Stable] Even GT5 Experimental is slowly getting stable.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Pyure

    We can possibly do the oxygen thing if someone explains why it makes tons of sense, and why it adds gameplay value. I don't mind it as a pollution workaround because acquiring the oxygen generates its own problems.


    The idea itself also has a minor design conflict that would need to be resolved: the plasma turbine accepts various chemical liquids for reactions. Currently Oxygen is NOT one of those inputs. If we implemented this, either
    a) we could never use oxygen in a reaction, or
    b) we would have to exclude the Plasma variant from the "large turbines that need liquid oxygen" scheme.
    or c) we'd have to design a new hatch, or a method to flag a hatch as the oxygen hatch


    (b) would be the best option, but "exceptions to the rule" should always be a last resort in game design.

    Plasma is fusion tier tech, they shouldn't be affected by pollution and don't make sense to use oxygen either because plasma energy generation doesn't look like to be a chemical reaction in the first place. You're not burning plasma with oxygen to produce heat or anything of the sort :P



    ---something that is not relevant to pollution---


    Isn't plasma just a very hot fluid, which should be the job of a large plasma heat exchanger? (because plasma is too hot and would burn down the regular LHE into ashes)
    Fun how we'd go back to steam... or another fluid should be created that expands like steam when its hot, which I don't know.
    ---


    Oxygen would be an optional fluid input, not necessary for the operation, but grants 100% efficiency if present, nullifying the pollution problem at the cost of another one, obtaining oxygen.
    Pollution is what decreases the oxygen quality in the air (which is used to burn things).
    You know that things burn because theres oxygen in the air and if you pump oxygen in, things burn faster, stronger and more efficient (no partial combustion is done [C + 1/2O = CO]).
    This is done in some kinds of blast furnaces nowadays.

    Quote from Pyure

    THIS is what I mean by a "can do" implementation of dirty water. It works. If there's a pollution factor nearby, machines can't use normal water anymore. Keep it on the board.


    NEGATIVES: It totally lacks Axle's flavour. Its only 10% in the fun direction whereas I'd prefer to take it further: where real, dirty water is actually a thing.

    Do both then. Dirty water on environment that poisons (or even kills if the water is too polluted) any entity that comes in contact with and blockage of "regular" water on recipes.
    Environmental water is very dirty if compared to regular water, but both are polluted enough that they can't be used for recipes.
    Dirty water can be purified into distilled water via filtering-distilling process (dirty water + Tcentrifuge = distilled water + sulfur and other crap).
    "Regular" water can be distilled with already existing processes.


    This way we get both flavour and functional dirty water.

    in ability to reverse the pollution, and to stay at a particular age if you choose to.


    This is again an idea, not my style but maybe someones, If someone only once to advance to the bronze age, that should be their choice, it will keep them from better materials, and easier recipes, that is the incentive to advance. that is all I am trying to say, I am not Axle's damn cheerleader. I don't think his idea needs to be implemented word for word, but it's the best option I have seen on the table, If there is something I missed in your posts where you changed your original idea of all machines creating pollution, then I apologize. That is the issue I have Issue with, I personally feel a basic burners create pollution, and need vented away from or built away from machines, is a good place to start. implementation can be done in stages,

    • Official Post
    Quote from bear989

    I personally feel a basic burners create pollution, and need vented away from or built away from machines, is a good place to start. implementation can be done in stages,

    To put this into both flavor and functional:
    Burners emit pollution that gets into chunk (functional part) AND a smog fluid block that works like thaumcraft taint (semi fluid-like block that floats side-upwards and can accumulate), if you're within it, you suffocate (flavor part). Once that smog block reaches sky (y=256), it disappears and turns into more pollution to the functional part.
    This smog block has to be vented by keeping a way for it to flow upwards, which is easy unless you're living deep underground.
    Muffler hatches and anything that could possibly pollute the air would do this.
    Palladium catalysts would reduce the amount of smog blocks created.


    Said smog blocks can also be destroyed with a scrubber machine should you require a self sustained enclosed system (for space stations and deep underground bases).

    Ohh, we got 100 pages on this thread. :D


    About the water: Replacing water blocks in world with dirty water is not possible from coding side. Only effecting interaction with water and the look. Water looks muddy in some biomes, this should be possible by pollution too.


    But pumping dirty water would be impossible to balace due to mod interaction. So the only "safe" way to implement dirty water is the machine recipes and looks.

    Quote from bear989

    in ability to reverse the pollution, and to stay at a particular age if you choose to.


    Ok good I can work with this.


    One thing I have emphasized from the start is that the numbers have to be configurable by players/modpack makers. If you think only coal burners should emit pollution, do that. If lava should emit pollution, and twenty times as much, do that. If LV machines should, add them in. I don't really care which machines should generate pollution and to which degrees, I just need to provide the scaffolding and coinflip some defaults.


    Ultimately we're targeting modpack designers here, and we want flexible tools in their hands so that the mechanics work for both hardcore and casual scenarios.


    Another thing I mentioned is that there's no reason we can't have a pollution cleaner which is ALSO configurable. I personally wouldn't use it, but there's no reason it can't exist. I forget who raised this: if it was Axle, he already successfully convinced me it was a positive contribution.


    It would be a SECOND phase addition because it is not, in and of itself, a CORE mechanic. But it WILL be there.

    Quote from SpwnX


    Plasma is fusion tier tech, they shouldn't be affected by pollution and don't make sense to use oxygen either because plasma energy generation doesn't look like to be a chemical reaction in the first place. You're not burning plasma with oxygen to produce heat or anything of the sort :P


    Ok so you're saying I can just ignore the plasma turbine because it won't be affected by pollution in the first place. Makes sense.


    Quote from SpwnX


    Do both then. Dirty water on environment that poisons (or even kills if the water is too polluted) any entity that comes in contact with and blockage of "regular" water on recipes.


    Ok but its the other half I can't think of a way to do. Can you imagine if your lake was full of dirty water blocks, and you tried to pick them up with a BC pump? An enderio pump? A simple bucket or bottle?
    (the bottle would almost certainly just transform it into pure water btw)


    I could probably make the GT pump work with it, but that is a nasty, nasty, horrible hack.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Blood Asp

    Ohh, we got 100 pages on this thread. :D


    About the water: Replacing water blocks in world with dirty water is not possible from coding side. Only effecting interaction with water and the look. Water looks muddy in some biomes, this should be possible by pollution too.


    But pumping dirty water would be impossible to balace due to mod interaction. So the only "safe" way to implement dirty water is the machine recipes and looks.

    Can't make pollution spread like thaumcraft taint? Except that what sustains it is pollution, not magic. Polluted biomes instead of tainted land biome.
    If pollution can spread to other chunks and affect machines why can't it replace blocks? I mean how TC spawns and replaces blocks just because you got a tainted biome.

    Quote from Pyure

    Ok but its the other half I can't think of a way to do. Can you imagine if your lake was full of dirty water blocks, and you tried to pick them up with a BC pump? An enderio pump? A simple bucket or bottle?
    (the bottle would almost certainly just transform it into pure water btw)


    I could probably make the GT pump work with it, but that is a nasty, nasty, horrible hack.

    Dirty water would be a different water fluid block, not regular water blocks. That way any mod can pump it.
    Dirty water bucket and bottles would have to be added by GT too to prevent those problems.
    Regular water blocks would be replaced with dirty water blocks if pollution rises enough.

    Quote from SpwnX


    Dirty water would be a different water fluid block, not regular water blocks. That way any mod can pump it.
    Dirty water bucket and bottles would have to be added by GT too to prevent those problems.


    There's fuzzy areas in my knowledge here, but I don't think these things are as simple (plausible) as they seem on the surface.


    Bottles are weird, and relying on other mods to whitelist liquids for their pumps is sketchy.

    Not as core mechanic. That would kill every servers tps and also can only differ beween ok and dead, nothing between. It could work later on, when the other effects allready made it impossible to life there it could be the final irreservible destruction. Or maybe something only to fix with the terraformer.

    see if we all stick it out we can come to an agreement, even if it's to agree to disagree.


    my only other request is to find a balanced way to implement it for the whole community, not just implementing it as a tool for modpack makes, I make my own small mod packs with less than 80 active mods, trying to only add mods that will enhance my playing not bypass a GT feature, or Nerf. I am terrible at reading, so looking threw long ass configs to see what I should turn on or off is very ruff on me. I think as a whole we all have stated that all burners should cause pollution. all multiblocks with mufflers should as well. now i disagree on lava boilers because they are using the already hot lava to heat the water, not burning a carbon source, but for balance and progressing on to better power source I see it as understandable. So when implementing the pollution please chose a balanced way to set things on or off for noobs and idiots like me

    • Official Post
    Quote from Blood Asp

    Not as core mechanic. That would kill every servers tps and also can only differ beween ok and dead, nothing between. It could work later on, when the other effects allready made it impossible to life there it could be the final irreservible destruction. Or maybe something only to fix with the terraformer.

    Even if the check to replace water is done once every a great while and do small work?
    You don't have to replace all water with dirty water instantly as pollution reaches threshold. It can be done progressively, slowly, over a great time, can't it?
    It could also happen simultaneously with the event of pollution spread to adjacent chunks, couldn't it?


    Dirty water would be reversed back to water if pollution lowers down to a minimum level too. Also gradually.

    Quote from bear989


    my only other request is to find a balanced way to implement it for the whole community, not just implementing it as a tool for modpack makes,


    Explain "a balanced way to set things on or off" please? I'm not sure what you're requesting here.


    The notion of making it configurable is the only way to make it balanced for a "whole community". Since the hardcore players want stuff like lava nerfed into the ground, and other players want it completely left alone. Is balance finding the middle ground, or trying to give everyone a truly positive experience?


    For what its worth, I'm open to leaving it in an extremely friendly configuration by default, and letting people crank up the difficulty themselves if they want to.
    I'm also open to looking into different overall mode packages, similar to Forestry, so that you can just change one thing to make a big swathe of changes. But that would be a later change.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Pyure


    Explain "a balanced way to set things on or off" please? I'm not sure what you're requesting here.


    The notion of making it configurable is the only way to make it balanced for a "whole community". Since the hardcore players want stuff like lava nerfed into the ground, and other players want it completely left alone. Is balance finding the middle ground, or trying to give everyone a truly positive experience?


    For what its worth, I'm open to leaving it in an extremely friendly configuration by default, and letting people crank up the difficulty themselves if they want to.
    I'm also open to looking into different overall "modes", similar to Forestry, so that you can just change one thing to make a big swathe of changes. But that would be a later change.

    Balance would be having all energy sources (that apply) be affected equally by pollution and slightly inequally based on realism (for example a diesel generator being a bit more pollutant than a gas generator, but not that much more).


    The heavy differences (nerfing lava to ground or left alone or even making a certain energy source pollution free) should be done by players (modpack makers) themselves via configs.


    Edit: Hooray for page 100!

    Quote from willis936

    Pyure: I'm getting exactly 60 B/s of SHS for 4.5 B/s HC. I don't remember your numbers but I was under the impression that "double" would be 60 B/s SHS for 6 B/s HC


    Weird.
    Going by the numbers I posted several pages ago, if I provide 4500 mb/s HC, I'd expect to get 4500 / 2 * 20 = 45000 mb/S of SHS.


    I'll be home in 6 hours, I'll have to test it again. :\


    How are you getting your numbers-per-second?
    When you mouse-over the steam in the gui of the output hatch, what value do you see in the tooltip?

    Quote from SpwnX


    Balance would be having all energy sources (that apply) be affected equally by pollution and slightly inequally based on realism (for example a diesel generator being a bit more pollutant than a gas generator, but not that much more).
    The heavy differences (nerfing lava to ground or left alone or even making a certain energy source pollution free) should be done by players (modpack makers) themselves via configs.


    On paper that sounds lovely, in practice its open to a lot of speculation, and the result isn't necessarily going to make Bear happy.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Pyure

    On paper that sounds lovely, in practice its open to a lot of speculation, and the result isn't necessarily going to make Bear happy.

    Those unhappy with the defaults can always use the config though.


    The default should cater to the majority (semi-hardcore players) that would like pollution to affect things, but not drastically and any consequences should be remediable with a cost.


    Also the default can always be discussed and finetuned should most people still be unhappy with it.


    Also² the default can be what you and bloody think its best, we're here just to give ideas and opinions, not force anyone to do what we want.

    I have apologize again but what do you call hardcore? making everything as hard and miserable on yourself as possible? I see hardcore GT as using it as implomented by Greg or now Ya'll. not using other mods to bypass mechanics and nerfs, or exploiting vanilla mechanics, like iron and gold farms, un-maned spawner traps, and so on.



    balance is up to you and blood to decide, we as players can and should state our feelings, but as developers/coders the implementation is up to you.


    I would have all coal boilers create pollution that needs vented, multiblock boilers would as a rule create less than the equivalent of single block boilers, so there is another reason to upgrade to them.
    bronze blast furnace creates more per operation than an IBF
    all machines with a muffler hatch needs vented out side
    high pressure lava boilers should create more that the equivalent multiblock boilers


    also:
    bronze machines exhaust steam rather than pollution, so they don't need to be vented outside, but the exhaust should have the ability to be collected as dirty water
    and electric machines don't create air pollution, but ore washers and chem reactors, ETC. could produce a dirty water that needs to be cleaned,


    and just to throw it out there someone address the damn Tin issue please, I have spent a week trying to find enuff to make a turbine and ore washer

    Mhhh...I am only a beginner in modding, but is a waterblock only a block? So changing a waterblock to a pollutedwaterblock when hit with pollution is a simple thing? The water then( so i think) comes through pumps->pipes to a machine. When this machine now gets not the right fluid it does not function any longer until pump/pipe is again full of "vanilla" water.... on the other hand, changing water in (Multiblock)tanks could be difficult ( i think).....



    i think i would like to do a little mod( just for fun) to see how it could work. Maybe one with greater skills could improve my mess :D ?