You might also check how much water you get from some GT5 drain covers collecting rain for comparison (unless the pipe changes broke that functionality...)
[GregTech-5][1.7.10-FORGE-1355+][Unofficial but approved Port][Stable] Even GT5 Experimental is slowly getting stable.
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Lots of actual steam engines let the steam escape. Steam locomotives, for example, were a large scale industrial use of steam power, and they had to refill regularly with water because they didn’t recover the cooled steam.
The IC2 kinetic steam generator and Gregtech’s large turbines both return the water, allowing for closed loops - but both have a mechanic of destroying turbines over time, which kills any interest I have in them. I don’t mind the material cost so much, I mind having to effectively “hand stoke” them with new turbines. I left that behind when I moved from the small coal-fired boilers to the large bronze boiler, and I’m not going back to that.
It doesn’t help that Gregtech’s turbines are finicky about flow rate, and hostile toward on/off operation where you only run them when you need power. Energy storage and some red stone logic can help with the latter, of course, the same way I currently run my large boiler in bursts between near-zero and near-full steam reserves.
Instead you need to hand stoke your water supply.
I usually do what you say in your last paragraph. EU storage is ridiculously cheap compared to irl electric energy storage and the large turbines are so efficient and put out so fast that I usually don't pass them up. I'm not up to speed on GT5U materials but it used to be that steel blades would last an acceptable amount of time until tungstensteel blades were available (and those lasted a Long time).
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I didn't know GT drain covers collected rain. I never really saw the point of GT drain covers. Sucking up a single source block didn't seem worthwhile. I've committed now to the Agricraft wooden tanks, which I rather like. They're visibly hollow, and you can see the contained water, unlike the Railcraft tanks, and I'm hard pressed to argue which of the 3 collection rates is more "realistic" since none of them are GT and the baseline solution in other mods is usually infinite water.
I'll still test out the Gregtech drains, just in the name of SCIENCE.
"Hand stoking your water supply" - no. That's not the alternative. The alternatives are either infinite water sources (for steam setups) or power sources that don't involve steam (i.e. petroleum fuels).
I took a hard look at all sorts of steam turbines from other mods. Some of them return water condensed from steam. The Big Reactor turbines, for example, have an optional upgrade that does that, and they're large, interesting looking multiblocks. I'm reluctant to go that route, though, since they generally return RF, and it's unclear how the balance compares to GT steam turbines. It may be significantly less or more efficient. I wanted to use Magneticraft's steam boiler instead of GT's large boiler, just because it can be automated (unlike the small boilers) and doesn't explode (unlike the large boilers), but it turns out that Magneticraft returns about 1/6th the steam per charcoal that GT's boilers do.
I will say I'm rather enjoying the conveyor belts / inserter setups from Magneticraft. They're considerably bulkier and less efficient than item pipes, but they look great and are far less magical than item pipes. I haven't done much complex with them, but I do like that when there's a backlog or timing issue, it's highly visible.
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On an unrelated note: the transistors introduced a few versions back - 0.30? - are in a weird place, progression wise. You'd think they'd be drop-in replacements for vacuum tubes, since individual transistors are much, much simpler devices than IC's. Instead, they're used as a tier-3 ("advanced") circuit requirement, and you cannot make any circuits with transistors until you have IC technology.
Speaking of IC's, the actual chip and the packaged basic circuit are both called "Integrated logic circuits." They really need distinct name, like "Integrated Logic Chip" and "Integrated Logic Circuit," though thankfully they're visually distinctive, unlike the Biomass / IC2 Biomass liquids.
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I put together a tiny resource pack for the early stages of the new circuits. At present, it includes new icons for transistors, IC chips, RAM chips, and CPU chips. I haven't touched anything else, such as the completed circuits. I just wanted to differentiate the chips, instead of using gray rectangles for all of them.
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I feel like I'm the only one still playing this, these days. 3 weeks and no activity?
I finally managed to get polyethylene production going. Willis mentioned doing that but quitting before MV; I'm not sure how that works, since the formulas I see for ethane production require MV.
This required a trip to the Nether to go Blaze hunting, since it requires two distilleries. I put together a Blaze farm while I was at it, but I suspect that the 20 Blaze Rods I collected while defending myself during construction are all I'll need for a long time. I went through a couple of Hazmat Suits doing it, but it was worth it, not having to worry about the Blazes setting me on fire.
As a bonus, I managed to luck into a large vein of Nether Quartz on the way there. I remember really hurting for that stuff last time I played.
Polyethylene is required for transistors, which in turn are required for Advanced Circuits, which was my goal. I've forgotten, now, how we used to make Advanced Circuits, but they're now fantastically expensive and time consuming to make. Mostly because they require 2 Good Circuits, which in turn require 3 Basic Circuits to make, for a total cost of 6.
I'm just lucky I managed to find an Exquisite Green Sapphire somewhere, or I'd have to make an Implosion Compressor and some sort of explosives production line as well. I know I'll have to do that eventually, but just getting polyethylene going was quite the headache, now that it requires 5 steps (oilsand -> crude oil -> sulfuric naphtha -> naphtha -> ethylene -> polyethylene ), plus 2 fluid canners to put oxygen and hydrogen into cells. And I haven't even started on the production line for processing the H2S cells you get as a waste product from desulfinating the naphtha.
One thing I noticed was that the alternate ICs, which require plastic for the circuit boards, require CPUs, which can be made with a glass lens. Except that the glass lens requires an Exquisite Glass Crystal, which appears to be impossible to make. Alternately, you can make them from glass plates in a HV lathe. Used to be that the plate -> lens recipe was LV.
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I feel like I'm the only one still playing this, these days. 3 weeks and no activity?
If you want my opinion, it became too complex to enjoy for me, so i moved to GT6.
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The crucible and the "it explodes and you die if you make a mistake" mechanic are what keep me away from GT6.
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It doesnt actually explode unless youre dumb enough to insert Gunpowder into it.
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For me, it was mainly the "no guis, do everything with in-world interactions" philosophy that Greg seems to be using now that kept me away from GT6. The ranges of RU/KU/HU/whatever shown for the different machines in NEI don't exactly help in making me think it's "simpler" and something to switch to if I thought GT5 was too complex - I'm confused by ShumnayaBulka's logic in making that switch. Sort of a moot point in my case, since I've switched to MC 1.12 with other mods for now (and I might play MC 1.13 vanilla for a bit after it officially releases)
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It doesnt actually explode unless youre dumb enough to insert Gunpowder into it.
Vaporized metal destroying everything in range, including the crucible and heat box, and killing you seems a lot like an explosion. Even if you want to say it isn’t.
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For me, it was mainly the "no guis, do everything with in-world interactions" philosophy that Greg seems to be using now that kept me away from GT6.
I’m not sure what else is involved, but arguably the problems with the crucible center around this exact issue. It forces you to eyeball it to gauge the temperature, so it and the heat box need extensive babysitting even if you don’t make an error. Like, for example, have enough stone contamination that it the molten metal never changes color, or not have the correct proportions. The feedback isn’t a failure to work, as it is with most mods, it’s death and destruction of your hard work.
My main hesitation in moving on to 1.12 and current mods is that I’m not aware of any that have what I feel is sufficient progression. I play Minecraft mainly for the “conveyor belt factory” experience you get from Factorio, Infinifactory, Big Pharma, and the like. Gregtech 5U (salted with Magneticraft for conveyor belts in my case) is the best I’ve been able to approximate that. I’d move on if there were 1.12 mods that did it better.
Ancient Warfare 2, by the way, was mildly interesting for the early low-tech aspects. It does auto-milking of cows in a pen, which most mods don’t, and the windmills I set up to power its stuff were entertaining. The main problem is that the central “hired NPC” mechanic doesn’t work well, the NPCs tend to get stuck, or get ganked when a mob manages to mysteriously show up inside the base.
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I actually got factorio recently and have played a hundred hours of it. I was considering making a fusion reactor mod that nerfed other energy production.
Overall it scratched the itch but I was sad at how simple it was. It's more accessible (ie you don't need an engineering degree to progress to late game) but it's not as satisfying when all of your problems are solved simply by clicking on stuff. I'm low on energy? Place more engines. I'm low on circuits? Place more assemblers. I'm low on copper? Place more mines. The emphasis is all on physical item plumbing rather than actual control systems.
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I’m fine with the emphasis on physical plant in Factorio. It’s hard for me to feel it’s “too simple” given how large and complex a base that can launch the end-game rocket has to be. “Clicking on stuff” grossly oversimplifies the sort of layout headaches the game involves.
There are, of course, mods. I’ve only dipped lightly into Factorio mods because I felt the vanilla game was more than good enough. I have, however, thought about getting into the mods which add more materials (Bob’s Mods) or make ore processing more complex.
It’s true that, while there’s logic gate infrastructure in the game, there’s little demand for it. The ones that come to mind are demand-control logic for steam power, balancing systems for petroleum production, and fuel-priority setups.
In fairness, mods like Gregtech don’t demand a lot of control systems either. Generally speaking it’s either simple shut offs (“shut off if water is low”) or hysteresis systems (“turn on when steam / battery levels are low, turn off when they’re full.”) Which is just as well given how fantastically bulky red stone control systems are, even if you’re using Project Red.
I’ve heard it argued that Gregtech isn’t actually hard, it’s just a lot of extra steps and grinding. It seems like 90% of my Gregtech decisions center around plant layout, just like Factorio. I.e. “where do I put this so it’s convenient to reach and use, where do I run these pipes, can I set up a series of item pipes so I need to do less hand-carrying of materials.”
It’s still a challenge. A major motivation for me right now is getting to a point where I don’t have to deal with all those friggin’ tiny dusts by hand anymore. I had such a setup in my prior run. What’s holding me back is mostly that it requires type filters and lots of regulators, which in turn require Advanced Circuits, and I’m currently finding those prohibitively expensive to make en masse. That, and figuring out a layout that will work with the conveyor belts, which are much clumsier than item pipes but more interesting for being limited.
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I guess maybe it's that the stakes are lower.
Energy distribution is too simple. There is no simulation of current through wires. You don't have to be mindful of what gets placed where. You cannot burn wire or blow up machines.
Energy production is too powerful. You only feel motivated to make more energy twice in the game. Once when you hit solar and another when you hit fission. There is never an energy crisis. Gregtech is one constant energy crisis and it's fun. You have to invest a serious amount of materials into higher power systems. You have to really sit down and make sure your rates are right.
Other differences like more raw resources and processing steps are just tedium that you can add back in for mods. Most of my issues stem from how little the player has to think about energy compared to raw materials.
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Energy distribution is too simple. There is no simulation of current through wires. You don't have to be mindful of what gets placed where. You cannot burn wire or blow up machines.
I don't see any of that as a drawback. Burning wires and blowing up machines is stupid, and example of a misguided attempt to make Gregtech "hard" by brutally punishing minor errors. It doesn't make for harder decisions or a more complex game, it just means your failure states suck more, and you're forced to be meticulous about certain minor tasks. No design changes are involved, since all you're doing is placing a cover or two temporarily to prevent accidental contact between wires. Covers that you can immediately remove if you use painters to color code your wires.
Honestly, I sometimes wonder if any mod designer who has implemented any sort of "misclick and things blow up" mechanic has actually played minecraft. Because precision pointing is not something the game engine does well. All such mechanics do is force you to be super-careful on certain clicks, or implement defensive measures first like placing extra covers. Or to just rely on mods that periodically back up your world.
I'm aware that, for some reason, things blowing up is an accepted design idiom for Minecraft mods, but I think that's largely a matter of accidental design and people copying earlier designs. Sort of like the way that adventure games prior to Monkey Island were all built around the save and reload mechanic, because "everyone knew" you had to punish the player with dead-end states where no recovery was possible. Monkey Island demonstrated the assumption was completely false, and adventure games as a genre improved as a result.
You could remove all that without affecting anything about Gregtech's energy crisis. That's mostly in the mod because of the exponential voltage tiers, where each new advance to new tech multiplies your previous energy demands by 4.
Energy distribution in Gregtech isn't any more interesting that Factorio's. It's relatively expensive in materials, but in terms of actual thought, it's not much different from the short / medium / long range power lines and the distribution substations in Factorio. That they don't explicitly mention transformers doesn't change the way you lay out the power network.
Not that you really have to do power distribution in Gregtech if you're using liquid fuels. Long power line networks, like the one I'm currently using, exist mostly because distributing steam is prohibitive above LV. If you're using Nitro Diesel (now called Cetane Diesel) or something similar, the energy density of fuel pumped through tiny pipes is enormous compared to wiring, and you can do a lot of power generation locally and just distribute fuel. No transformers or different voltages required.
Er, I did think of an exception. In EU terms it's easy to get 1 million EU / sec of fuel through a pipe, which is higher than Ludicrous Voltage, but if you go to plaid I suppose superconductors move more.
While I agree that you worry far, far more about energy in Gregtech than in Factorio, that's not a reason to dismiss everything else. I wouldn't say energy management in Gregtech is the majority of the game, let alone everything.
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Factorio is fun. I'm just left wanting to have to consider things that you don't. There is no electricity cost over distance. You can power a mine 2 km away and there is no loss. In minecraft you'd have to step up to IV or higher to even be able to accomplish it. In factorio you just plant poles and substations when you need power. In IC2/gregtech (and in real life) you must avoid loops at all costs. There's just an entire aspect of the game that poofs out of existence: energy distribution. I find it to be one of the most interesting parts of the game. It can be done without fires and explosions. You need concepts of voltage, current, and resistance though.
And as you point out the exponential increase in energy demand is what makes GT one long energy crisis. I wouldn't mind factorio going that way instead of becoming a mine maintainer in the late game.
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I feel like I'm the only one still playing this, these days. 3 weeks and no activity?
Not everyone playing GT5u does always post in this thread.
I am still playing 5.0.9.32_pre4 with my skyblock setup, but due to limited time my progression is very slow. In my current world i am in the bronze age and just started producing my first steel.
I am also not sure how far i will go or get, since my plan is to get some basic materials via ExNihilo and then getting further materials via IC2-/Gregtech-Crops and Forestry-/Gregtech-Bees. Sadly the bees are currently no option since the game crashes on startup when you disable the comb nerv in the config.
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Not everyone playing GT5u does always post in this thread.
Agreed. Noticed a lot of negativity in the recent posts, but this is an amazing mod and I really appreciate the work done by the team. I play intermittently with a buddy, and we've been struggling our way through Infitech 2u Fear the Night for the past few months; which has been incredibly difficult, but fun. We just got stable HV power and made our first two distillation towers for processing heavy oil. We hate/love the improvements made to the circuit tiers and the various crazy setups we need to produce industrial rubbers... it feels so good to produce circuits now that we can make the SMD components.
I haven't bumped us to .32pre4 yet though, been waiting for the full release. Is that still planned, or should I just use .32pre4?
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Recently I had a bad, bad Idea: making GregTech available for the Crafting Guide.
But you know, these 16 creative tabs is not what you want to spend
your time on, if you know there is an better Way.
To manage that I had a other not really bright Idea: Write a Python program.
What it should do:
- Fetch all the recipes for every Tier
- Fetch all the materials an their forms (Plates, Blocks etc.) (in a Matrix)
- Register the different tier machines
- Insert the different crafting components from every Tier
- Combine that and make silly Files that no living human can read
What I need:
I tried to look in very dictionary of your github Code, but I cant find either
the default Crafting shapes neither the Containers for the Materials.
It would be great if you would help me to make a solution for a
readout.
--RedNicStone
Thanks for your reply
