Explanation on the changes to wind mills

    So that means to make a wind-gen that /never/ breaks...


    5 > 31 * (height - obscuredBlockCount) / 750


    5 * 750 / 31 > height - obscuredBlockCount



    120.9677419354 > height - obscuredBlockCount



    -- Oops, I forgot the thunderstorm bonus; divide by 1.5 --


    80.64 > height - obscuredBlockCount



    For every block above 80 you want to obscure that many blocks if building a perfectly safe windgen system.


    In order to build a /perfectly/ safe windgen array up at layer 127 almost the entire layer next to (or beneath) the windgens should be filled in. (47 spaces filled out of 81 spaces on 3 layers)

    Quote from MJEvans

    In order to build a /perfectly/ safe windgen array up at layer 127 almost the entire layer next to (or beneath) the windgens should be filled in. (47 spaces filled out of 81 spaces on 3 layers)


    But if you do that, output will suffer significantly, won't it? Or has that changed as well?

    Quote from HeadHunter67


    But if you do that, output will suffer significantly, won't it? Or has that changed as well?

    Yeah... seems to me all the extra wind gens you'd have to build to make up the output could just be made later (and rarely) on demand to replace broken ones. :P

    Quote from SpeedDaemon

    Yeah... seems to me all the extra wind gens you'd have to build to make up the output could just be made later (and rarely) on demand to replace broken ones. :P

    You only /need/ to double your windgen count to get above this 'loss' of potential power; you needed to fill in those spaces anyway while above 80. Plus that helps compact your wiring grid (you may as well mostly fill in with mills). Finally once built you /never/ have to go back to check it or fix anything.

    Quote from HeadHunter67


    But if you do that, output will suffer significantly, won't it? Or has that changed as well?

    Adding obstruction blocks has the same effect as placing the wind mill one height level further down. So a wind mill at height 127 with 64 obstructions will be as effective as a wind mill at height 63 with zero obstructions.
    As MJEvans pointed out, to make a safe one you place it at height level 80.64. But i think his derived math is off because ((31 * (82 - 2) / 750) * 1.5) = 4.96 and ((31 * (83 - 2) / 750) * 1.5) = 5.022.
    I bet he forgot obscuredblockcount ALWAYS includes the 2 cables coming from below.


    Still, a 0.0075% chance is a VERY SMALL chance.

    Quote from Rick

    Hmm didnt knew about windgens having a minor chance to break.


    What about just making them more compact? Use the windgens and cables themselves as obstructions?

    Read the last 5 posts of the thread before yours and you should see that this is what we are discussing now...


    That is, all posts on this page except yours...

    I was seeking the height to place a windmill at /after/ obstruction calculations (IE as if producing power and shipping it nowhere were the goal)



    Quote

    80.64 > height - obscuredBlockCount



    For every block above 80 you want to obscure that many blocks if building a perfectly safe windgen system.



    So Height = 82 - 2 obstruction down to out of range wire == safe; everything I said was correct, you simply misinterpreted it.

    You mean I gotta move everything down 45 meters? Aw, frak. So how much less power do they produce at that level, since you've already got the math in front of you?


    Yes, yes i did... Simply didn't pay attention to the "<"


    Quote from HeadHunter67

    You mean I gotta move everything down 45 meters? Aw, frak. So how much less power do they produce at that level, since you've already got the math in front of you?


    If the generator is placed at level 82 then:


    ((31 * (82 - 2) / 750) * 1.5) = 4.96 EU/t max.


    ((15 * (82 - 2) / 750) = 1.6 EU/t average.


    EDIT: And average will be slightly higher because if wind is increasing then wind cannot decrease at the same time. that 11% chance of wind increasing thing. Say wind str is at 16, then there is a 11% chance that wind will NOT decrease (and instead increase). After that there is another 11% chance that wind will decrease.
    Like i said in my detailed post, i can't do the math to determine what the actual effective percentages are for wind decreasing. Still, if wind was on average 16 then you get 1.70666 EU/t.


    EDIT #2:


    On a side note, be aware that you have to be REALLY REALLY "unlucky" to even get to the theoretical max level...


    Starting at wind str 20.


    11% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 21.
    10% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 22.
    9% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 23.
    8% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 24.
    7% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 25.
    6% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 26.
    5% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 27.
    4% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 28.
    3% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 29.
    2% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    Now, all you need is a thunder storm at this exact moment in time. Because...
    Wind strength is now at 31, 0% chance of wind increase. Wind decreases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    Wind strength is now at 31, 0% chance of wind increase. Wind decreases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    Wind strength is now at 31, 0% chance of wind increase. Wind decreases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    Wind strength is now at 31, 0% chance of wind increase. Wind decreases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    Wind strength is now at 31, 0% chance of wind increase. Wind decreases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    Wind strength is now at 31, 0% chance of wind increase. Wind decreases to 30.
    1% chance of wind increase. You get lucky and wind increases to 31.
    ...
    ...
    ...
    So say you manage to stay around that max and hit just right with that 1% chance several times in a row. And a thunderstorm is going... You now have an additional (max) chance of 0.075% to lose a wind mill...
    I'd say the chances of that happening is so slim that if it happens to you then you really should buy yourself a lottery ticket because you will win the jackpot... TWICE!

    And at level 127, the output should be 7.75 max/2.5 average, if my math is correct?
    I'm not sure that it's worth it to move them down to a "safe" level, considering they'd only be running at 64% of their previous efficiency. That's no different than losing 5 out of my 16 mills outright - or building 9 more to keep up the same power generation.


    I think I'll keep them where they are and replace them if/as needed. It's honestly more economical that way.

    Quote from HeadHunter67

    And at level 127, the output should be 7.75 max/2.5 average, if my math is correct?
    I'm not sure that it's worth it to move them down to a "safe" level, considering they'd only be running at 64% of their previous efficiency. That's no different than losing 5 out of my 16 mills outright - or building 9 more to keep up the same power generation.


    I think I'll keep them where they are and replace them if/as needed. It's honestly more economical that way.


    Your math is correct. I foresee wind mills changing in the future to make a break more likely. With some kind of safety feature to stop your wind generators (apply the brakes that is) if wind speed reaches a dangerous level. All through a wind measuring device that is configurable and emits redstone signal ofc.


    EDIT: Additionally, placing them below a certain height leaves them in no danger of breaking unless a hurricane passes by. And placing them at 127 makes them several times more effective with increased risks of sudden wind gusts and severe wind on average forcing you to shut down or "weather the storm" pun pun punnilly pun.

    Learned something new thanks to BrickedKeyboards reading the source as well. I had missed the vital part about when a wind gen breaks due to overproduction it is replaced with a standard generator, not an empty air block. The 1-4 iron ingots are the wind gen blades flying off, thus making it a regular generator.

    Quote from HeadHunter67

    (I had that happen to a CPU cooling fan on my computer many years ago - had to replace the processor and motherboard as a result)


    Ouch.. The worst along those lines that I had happen was I lost a fin on CPU heatsink assembly somehow. I forget how but I suspect it was while I was in there mucking about sometime.
    Got fortunate though, despite the extreme overheat (this was an Athlon XP 3000+ I think) of 90C+ *twice* the processor and motherboard survived. Got a bit lucky there.


    although extreme overheats like that supposedly aren't possible anymore, thankfully.

    This was an "orb" style heatsink - a cylindrical heatsink with a fan inside at the top, and another at the bottom above the CPU. Apparently, one of the vanes from the top fan broke off, fell into the bottom fan and destroyed it - sending shrapnel throughout my case.


    I'm lucky it didn't do more damage.

    Cadde : you were right about the fact that it returns after calculating a wind increase : this has a substantial effect on what the mean wind ends up being. Unfortunately, there are 3 probability gradients involved, so I do not know how to solve this problem for the mean wind speed without just writing a program to do so. Perhaps I will write a script real quick and get back to you.


    The mean is somewhere between 21.05 and 15. Screw it, firing up Matlab now.


    RESULTS : 18.1721 with 500,000 runs. Doing a second trial now. Each run seems to be ending up in the range of 18.something, with the running average over several trials at 18.45.


    I'm willing to conclude that the REAL numbers for a maxed out wind generator are 3.1 average, plus bonuses for thunderstorms and rainstorms.


    Cadde : for especially high production values, since theoretically you can output 6 or 7 EU/tick, this means you can also burn up a tin cable in a thunderstorm, correct?


    Yep, "theoretically" tin cable should burn when production exceeds 5 but i have done tests with tin cable and luminators where i could (with an EU reader) read 28 EU/t. Though that might be because each luminator get's a separate package in the same tick. No single package exceeded 5 EU but all combined made it 28 EU/t.

    Cadde, a quick bit a of math and I realize that this contest is over before it begins.


    All your assumptions are based on a design for your wind generators where you max out the output per wind generator.



    If you just stick a cable going to the sky (copper) with an MV transformer on the end that can convert the current to MV (the cost of 1 machine + 1 stick + 1 cobble) you can just put 4 wind generators around the cable, then 4 more the next level down, then skip a 2 levels, then 2 more groupings like that. I am still checking permutations on pencil and paper to determine the most efficient arrangement, but 15 wind around the cable make as much energy as the 81 solars that would fit on the space. (on average...)


    Construction procedure : you need 1 stack of scaffolding. Just scaffold up to the sky. At the top, break the top piece of scaffold. Stick a cable there. Break a few more scaffold. Stick 4 wind around the cable. Stick another cable down. Keep on going until you have installed 15, then stick an MV transformer on there. Slap a switch on it. Keep on going to the ground with gold wire. Wire the gold right to an MFE. Done.


    Sorry, but math>contest when we are talking about a game that is based on fixed rules and is itself a mathematical construct.

    Are we talking break even here in power?
    What are the resource costs?
    Doesn't copper cable lose 1 EU every 5 blocks, thus making the wind gens at the top never able to reach the MW transformer?


    Maybe i am just having trouble imagining it the way you do...