Comments on attitude towards 'Update Requests'...

    I have lightly covered this in other conversations headhunter but to state it bluntly, your attitude sucks and any of the positive contributions to you may contribute to the MC community are quickly over powered by your D-baggery. You are not encouraging participation, you are discouraging it. Contrast to the Direwolf and it's pretty plain, Direwolf often says "Hey that's awesome" You pretty much imply everyone else is an idiot. Not helpful at all.


    It's completely understandable that people would want updates to thier favorite mod. it's also completely understandable that they may have expectations that it would be released by now for 1.0. It's not like no one knew it was coming and they didn't release several PRs to get mod authors the chance to see what was coming. I was pretty surprised frankly that 1.337 came out and it was just a bug fix, feature release. Spending a few minutes to explain why things are helps a lot and just popping off with "Your an idiot go back and re read the last 26 pages like I had to." just pisses people off.


    That is unless of course you just want to create a community of elitist a-holes who circle jerk about how great they are and how the rest of the world is filled with idiots.


    Yeah it's frustrating to say the same thing over and over. But if you thing just banning people is going to change that you are mistaken. But if you spend a bit of effort to explain why It's a pain to update things people might start to educate others. Most the time not but 1 in 20 will.

    Off-Topic


    I guess you couldn't contend with my points, so your only resort was a personal attack.. And you call me a douchebag... :rolleyes:
    I presume you feel free to be "Blunt" here because you know a post like yours would get you at least a warning on the Minecraft forums. So now you'll get to see just how forgiving the moderators are here by comparison.
    Be thankful that you're free to talk like you do... and wait until it sinks in that your behavior is no different than that which you scorn.


    Quote

    It's not like no one knew it was coming and they didn't release several PRs to get mod authors the chance to see what was coming. I was pretty surprised frankly that 1.337 came out and it was just a bug fix, feature release.


    So it sounds like you think it ought to be out for 1.0 by now? And by "ought", you mean you're "owed" it? That there can be no reasonable explanation for the delay - and if there is, you're OWED an explanation?


    Quote

    That is unless of course you just want to create a community of elitist a-holes who circle jerk about how great they are and how the rest of the world is filled with idiots.


    I've found that "elitist" is a term only used by people who don't like the fact that they're not as smart as other people. See, someone who has some common sense and makes a little bit of effort finds the answers are already there to be had. It's the lazy, the ignorant, and the self-entitled who just waltz in and ask the same question that's been answered over and over rather than taking a moment to do some research. Basically, that's an attitude that says "My time is more valuable than yours, and I can't be bothered, so you do it for me". Want to tell me why it's wrong to feel I'm better than that?


    I'll point out that fully half of all people have an IQ of 100 or less - so it's simply a statistical fact to say "Most people are stupid". If it makes me "elitist" to say so, I'll note that at least I'm in better company.


    Quote

    But if you thing just banning people is going to change that you are mistaken. But if you spend a bit of effort to explain why It's a pain to update things people might start to educate others.


    We've already explained why it's a good policy, but that hasn't seemed to "educate" you. Then again, by your own admission, there was a 95% chance that it wouldn't.

    • Official Post
    Quote from HeadHunter67

    I've found that "elitist" is a term only used by people who don't like the fact that they're not as smart as other people. See, someone who has some common sense and makes a little bit of effort finds the answers are already there to be had. It's the lazy, the ignorant, and the self-entitled who just waltz in and ask the same question that's been answered over and over rather than taking a moment to do some research. Basically, that's an attitude that says "My time is more valuable than yours, and I can't be bothered, so you do it for me". Want to tell me why it's wrong to feel I'm better than that?


    I'll point out that fully half of all people have an IQ of 100 or less - so it's simply a statistical fact to say "Most people are stupid". If it makes me "elitist" to say so, I'll note that at least I'm in better company.

    I really couldn't have said it better myself. Although, of course, the 'non-elitists' out there will completely refute your point.


    In regards to the IQ point, less than 4% of the worlds population have an IQ above 130, which isn't even super-genius. 'Genius' is considered to be around the 150 bracket. I'll point out here that the national average in the UK is about 110. In the US it's about 100 and in developed parts of Asia, it's about 120. So the point that 'most people' are stupid could be expanded to 'the vast majority of people' are stupid. Doesn't mean you should treat everyone as if they're stupid, but frankly, you get sick of dumbing stuff down for people after a time.


    Quote

    Yeah it's frustrating to say the same thing over and over. But if you thing just banning people is going to change that you are mistaken. But if you spend a bit of effort to explain why It's a pain to update things people might start to educate others. Most the time not but 1 in 20 will.

    So it's worth putting up with 19 out of 20 idiots to teach the other one how to do it right? I'm sorry, but I'd rather remove and then blend my own eyeballs while they're still attached. This rule has been in place for months. Long before IC2 was even released. There were no complaints about it before and it worked just fine. Out of the many hundreds (or even thousands) of people that play IC2, there are literally less than 0.1% of that number complaining about 'the rule'. And btw, banning them has worked fine up until now....

    Oh, absolutely. I think there's an impression that I treat everyone the same way - and that's hardly true. I'm very helpful to people unless they start with an attitude (in which case I'm merely trying to speak their language) or if it's clear they haven't made any effort on their own part (in which case, why should I?)


    So those who think I'm not "nice" enough generally aren't nice themselves, and/or not particularly smart, either. To them, I say: "I'll try being nicer, if you try being smarter" 8)

    • Official Post
    Quote from Snowpaw

    D=27114#post27114]I personally would do a one-strike policy with this particular rule. If there are sufficient moderators on the forum who are NOT already busy being developers, it's easy to have those mods just kick the 'omg when is it coming out?!?!1!?' posts in the nuts once, watch them get deleted, and warn/temp ban the person who posted it. A temp ban is not bad. Especially when the person did something stupid and they realize it. I've been a forum mod before, and at least on most forum software it's easy for mods to remove posts.


    Freeware forum software doesn't support anything but permanent ban or account deletion.
    At least this one, we're using.


    Quote from mahkra

    Yeah it's frustrating to say the same thing over and over. But if you thing just banning people is going to change that you are mistaken. But if you spend a bit of effort to explain why It's a pain to update things people might start to educate others. Most the time not but 1 in 20 will.


    Tried, didn't work (> MCF Forum, IC thread).
    As well, what to do with the other 19?

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    Truth is, when the majority of people ARE idiots in the MC (and MCF) community, you have to cater your rules to them. Intelligent people will understand the reasoning and just ignore the severity of it.

    The truth is most of the people on the MC Forums and Community are are kids.

    • Official Post
    Quote from mahkra

    The truth is most of the people on the MC Forums and Community are are kids.


    Bein a kid or under-age isn't an issue.
    I've seen "kids" who are fine people, the only issue being there squeaky voice, not any sort of immature behavior.


    However, behaving like a moron is kinda an issue, regardless of age, though ADMITTEDLY, younger person tend to hit this issue more often ^^'

    Quote from Alblaka

    Bein a kid or under-age isn't an issue.
    I've seen "kids" who are fine people, the only issue being there squeaky voice, not any sort of immature behavior.


    However, behaving like a moron is kinda an issue, regardless of age, though ADMITTEDLY, younger person tend to hit this issue more often ^^'

    After going to the convention I can say from a first hand perspective that there are few (very few) brilliant 12 year olds there doing some really cool stuff and a whole bunch of kids that just need to grow up. Keep in mind MC is a kids game with grown up concepts that only show up if you look for them. A lot of the moron behavior are just kids that don't know better.


    I try to remember they are true newbies not the old tards I am used to in most forums, even if there are similarities sometimes.

    Wow.


    Firstly, I agree with the OP a bit. Do I care if the mod has a release date? Nope. Would it make my life easier? Yup. Do I think people should be permanently banned for asking? Nope. That is harsh. No matter your perspective, being banned for asking a question is harsh.


    THAT aside, though, I'm really posting to comment on Headhunter's attitude. It's astonishingly horrid. Where the OP was asking for factual information and debate, headhunter came in with accusations and insults, though subtle. This is very much something that could have been avoided.


    In debate you don't accuse your opponents, you counter them with information.



    /end





    Great job on the mod, alblaka. I can't wait to try out the new version!

    I'll take this opportunity to pipe back in before the thread finally goes far enough to outlive it's usefulness and someone(s) get it locked...


    ...aside from the parts from the thread that go around with the same points that don't really apply to the spirit of the OP, below are some more recent comments I feel like addressing directly...


    Quote from Snowpaw

    When discussing someone's attitude, not the rules, but the attitude with which they state and enforce said rules, it does not fall under any obligations or promises dictated by one's position or vocation, but from normal levels of respect due every human being who has not proven themselves to be a complete idiot. Meaning, I feel that Alablaka DOES owe people something: Treating them nicely. Everyone owes everyone else that. Stating it the way it has been stated and enforcing it the way it's been said that it's been enforced is not nice, it's harsh. More harsh than it needs to be.


    ^ THIS ^ - was my point.



    Quote from HeadHunter67

    If that's an obligation, it must be a mutual one. Keep in mind that we all benefit from the work the IC2 team puts into this mod, and they ask nothing from us except our patience - though they also appreciate our gratitude.


    Those who demonstrate that they cannot be patient and cannot make the simple effort to conform to a simple rule, are indicating that they feel they are above the social convention of obligation - and as I said, obligation is a mutual concept.


    Patience is one thing, blind patience is another. In a way usage of the mod shows gratitude. Sticking with 1.8.1 solely for this one mod, despite desire to move to 1.0.0, more-so perhaps. All I was asking for was a little more... ?transparency? bleh- that doesn't feel right but it'll work. Moving on for now...


    Quote from HeadHunter67

    Alblaka has shown himself to be pretty easy-going about a great many things, and when people don't agree with him he has shown that his opinion can be changed by rational discussion.


    Which is kinda what I was originally hoping for here, and he has proven himself to be by keeping it unlocked this long as it seems to have spiraled out a bit at times...


    Quote from HeadHunter67

    One need only look at the Minecraft mod forum to see how anything useful is lost in the noise of "OMG when is this for 1.0?" posts. Personally, if I were in his shoes, ... ...but what would be really nice is if people made a little effort instead of taking others for granted.


    Or you can stop feeling obligated to reply to EVERY SINGLE 'OMG when is this 1.0.0?' spam posted... *You* don't HAVE to reply. Or if you start feeling like your head will explode if you don't, you could reply with a relevant quote or link. ...Not replying would probably be the far easier solution though. You also seem to take for granted that the average MCF poster's age is probably ~12 or so- posters that haven't really learned to 'read the OP, and the last 2 pages if needed' yet. Like I said though... you don't have to reply, you CAN leave them to figure it out on their own though... They probably have by the time you respond anyway.



    Anyway... moving on... Now with the benefit of hindsight... What if... Waaaaayyyy back when.... two whole MONTHS ago, when MC 1.0.0 was released... Alblaka had made a sticky announcement thread stating something to the effect of '...Yeah... We know 1.0.0 is out- However, we will first be looking to finish our current 'bug release fix' for 1.8.1. Soon after that I(we) will have personal obligations that I(we) must attend that will keep me(us) well occupied for some time. For this reason please do not expect a 1.0.0 IC² until 2012.'


    It's blunt and to the point. Yes, I know people will protest it, but THEY can get over it. ...same way we were told to get over it that eventually lead to me finally registering and creating this thread. People that feel the need to respond to every 'when is this 1.0.0' post could even link directly to the sticky announcement in their response if they felt the desire... ...mods could move the 'wen ths iz 1.0, plz' threads as responses to the announcement as a sort of 'trophy wall'.


    I dunno... As it stands, I've quit caring totally. Have fun with 1.0.0, I think I'm gonna keep sitting at 1.8.1 with my uncraftable telepipes for awhile.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Sorry for the double post... but while I was crafting my last post...



    Quote from Neceros

    Firstly...
    -[snip] -
    .../end


    Great job on the mod, alblaka. I can't wait to try out the new version!


    /agree. Totally. 100%.


    /also:


    Quote from Alblaka

    Freeware forum software doesn't support anything but permanent ban or account deletion.


    phpBB maybe?

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote from Neceros

    THAT aside, though, I'm really posting to comment on Headhunter's attitude. It's astonishingly horrid. Where the OP was asking for factual information and debate, headhunter came in with accusations and insults, though subtle. This is very much something that could have been avoided.


    In debate you don't accuse your opponents, you counter them with information.


    So... practice what you preach? I love the people who come in here and take digs at me while behaving in the same way they criticize.


    Why don't you go back and take a look at my first response - it's pretty rational and addresses each individual concern - while observing that the OP's "attitude" (like yours and Makhra's before) are no different than the ones you are criticizing. Approaching a "concern" with an obvious chip on your shoulder is going to get a less-than-pleasant response.


    Quote from Saul_Goode

    I'll take this opportunity to pipe back in before the thread finally goes far enough to outlive it's usefulness


    It never was useful in the first place... but now, it's a moot point.

    Quote

    Or you can stop feeling obligated to reply to EVERY SINGLE 'OMG when is this 1.0.0?' spam posted... *You* don't HAVE to reply.


    They don't have to post, either - and they wouldn't if they took the time to even read one sticky.
    See, if they take a moment to realize they shouldn't (and don't have to post), no one needs to reply... see how that works?


    Quote

    Have fun with 1.0.0, I think I'm gonna keep sitting at 1.8.1 with my uncraftable telepipes for awhile.


    I am having fun with 1.0... in case you hadn't noticed, IC2 for 1.0 is out already. As for teleport pipes, that's been updated to 1.0 as well, if you look around the MCF mod forum a bit.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    Anyway... moving on... Now with the benefit of hindsight... What if... Waaaaayyyy back when.... two whole MONTHS ago, when MC 1.0.0 was released... Alblaka had made a sticky announcement thread stating something to the effect of '...Yeah... We know 1.0.0 is out- However, we will first be looking to finish our current 'bug release fix' for 1.8.1. Soon after that I(we) will have personal obligations that I(we) must attend that will keep me(us) well occupied for some time. For this reason please do not expect a 1.0.0 IC² until 2012.'


    You just don't understand it do you? If Al would have posted that very information and had no ban rules asking for release dates then this would be a possible outcome:


    -"So when is the first bug release fix for 1.8.1 coming out?"
    -"When are you done with your personal life? I want my money's worth out of you, get back to making IC2!"
    -"Where are you Alblaka? We need our IndustrialCrack!"
    -" It's Dec 24th, my family hates me so i am in my basement playing MC and i want IC2 for MC 1.0.0 now. It's Christmas, COME OOOOON! PLEAAAAASASASUFIUASIUFHA!"
    -"Hey, there's only one day left on 2011 and you PROMISED you would have IC2 for MC 1.0.0 released before 2012!!!!111!!!11!11!" (See what i did there? I turned a "don't expect" to "we will" because that's what people do!)
    -"OMG, Alblaka has abandoned us. I am uninstalling IC2 and i will post hate messages all over the MCF and the internets telling others how horrible Alblaka is. He said we would have a release in 2012 and it's Jan 1st 2012 and there is no release to be found!"


    .......


    Then you get the few odd people who reply with "But IC2 for MC 1.0.0 isn't even out yet" to posts that say something along the lines of "With IC2 for 1.0.0 out, can we expect all the addons to be updated in 24 hours because i totally would cancel my trip to the bahamas to update an addon so some pimply little teenager can play his precious minecraft for 3 hours..."


    Though, the possibility of ALL that happening exactly as described is very slim so just take that with a grain of salt. But it is related to what happens in reality when some developer makes or even hints a release date and people turn it into something completely different and promise to murder them when the release date has passed. (Yes, that has happened too!)

    The sad thing, Cadde, is that when we try to point out the historical outcomes of such things, we're the ones with the wrong attitude. Did we wake up in Bizarro World or something?

    Quote from HeadHunter67

    The sad thing, Cadde, is that when we try to point out the historical outcomes of such things, we're the ones with the wrong attitude. Did we wake up in Bizarro World or something?


    Nah, it's just that the faster your internet connection. The more weird stuff you are exposed to in a shorter time frame. Eventually it wears you down unless you learn to shield yourself from it. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger! (And angrier)

    So many letters wasted and wasted and wasted about something that doesnt matter for the mod itself. Let's be patient for all we get, its free, its high quality and above all its so much fun, stop taking yourself so goddamn serious people. Hell if ablaka decides to eat little kittens to get this mod out, so be it! Onwards with the baby cats!


    Why dont we join hands, and let the gibble get away from us. Set a nuke on fire and dance around it until it blows up.


    By the time you guys wrote you could have mined 232 Iron, 128 Redstone, 10 Diamonds, Shaved a sheep, Milked a cow, breed it into a Show and call yourself Dr. Frankenstein.


    Now get the fuck back to the game.



    THIS :3 - Alblaka