Comments on attitude towards 'Update Requests'...

1st Official Post

    Let me start by saying that this is not meant to inflame in any way, just my perspective on the issue...


    Blunty- Alblaka's 'update request = ban' mentality is crap. I get that the forum software you're using doesn't allow for mute's and such (use different forum software perhaps?), and that constant requests from people get annoying, and that you don't OWE anyone, anything. I totally get all that.


    What I don't get is why you have to posture yourself the way you do about it? Why can't you make an easy to find post, link it prominently (above "IndustrialCraft² recent version:: v1.337! (For Minecraft 1.8.1 Beta)" in the announcement box up above, maybe?) Having some idea of what is going on make the waiting a bit easier, and I do not get at all why you have to be 'ask = ban'. Look at the way SpaceToad handled it... he made a post saying 'Yes, I'm aware... on vacation, it'll probably be a couple weeks.' Simple.


    You take the 'you'll get it when(if) we feel like giving it, you'll be happy to get it when you do... and if you don't like it then piss-off.' Why can't you just say what you're planning so that people can make their own choices on when/if to upgrade...


    Instead of banning people on your own forums and having the IC2 thread on MCforums locked and freaking out on your users you could have just made a post that said 'Look, we're releasing a 1.8.1 bug-fix release 2 weeks after MC1.0. After that we will start working on making a MC1.0 compatible IC2- expect not to have a 1.0.0 IC2 for at least 4-6 weeks." Makes that 4-6 weeks suck significantly less when you know it's going to be 4-6 weeks.


    I'm not saying a 'Here's what we have planned' post would solve everything, god knows that people can't search before they post... but if you had handled this differently you'd be a lot closer to being in the right and my argument wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    • Official Post

    The tricky thing with setting timeframes on when you expect to have things done is ---- if you miss that time frame for ANY reason people start jumping down your throat and screaming for the hills. OMG ITS TUESDAY ITS NOT OUT YET WTF WHERE IS IT?


    Not saying everyone does that, but it does happen. Quite a bit as a matter of fact :).


    I think Alblaka wants this forum to be dedicated to people discussing Industrial craft and all the cool things it entails. If he didn't make that hardcore rule -- you'd have a dozen threads in here asking for an update on the v1.0 release. And those threads would clutter the place up. It wouldn't be enjoyable. Go find any forum post over at the MCForums, and its full of people saying 'Whens 1.0 update coming', and equally as many people saying 'It'll be out when its out, stop asking'.


    Hes already stated (a couple times) on his blog -- www.industrial-craft.net - that after this bugfix update they'll start working on the v1.0 migration. A timeframe is a hard thing to guarantee. Minecraft's code isn't, how to put this nicely, the cleanest code in the world? I've also heard the term 'Trainwreck' thrown around :).

    1) Many people don't read announcements or stickies on the forum - no matter where they are, no mattter how blatant.
    2) Some people feel that their question or opinion is so important that it must go in its own topic or no one else will see it.
    3) People on the Internet have historically turned their own desires into rumors, which become "announcements" which become "promises" - despite the fact that there was no official word on the matters. Why risk it?
    4) Alblaka KNOWS that Minecraft 1.0 is out... so why do people need to ask for an update, or when it will be? It's done when it's done - promising a date doesn't change that. If something arises (like, say, Mojang updating Minecraft amid the IC development process), then Alblaka is faced with one of two choices: Miss the projected date, or release something that isn't completely ready.
    5) If you find you don't like the "attitude" here, examine your own. If you want to see a mod with the "don't like it, bugger off" metnality, go take a lokk at the MCF thread for Better Than Wolves. They treat their fans worse than Alblaka treats his detractors.


    In short, the only problem here is the one you brought with you. I think your mining pick left a big chip on your shoulder.

    I get all that... I do... I understand that there are people that will scroll past a page of large blinking letters to post a new thread that was answered by said blinking letters. It sucks, but welcome to the internet.


    Timelines- that's why you set generous timelines. No one will complain if something is released a week early, or if the release is a bit more polished because you had a chance to look over it a couple more times.


    MCforums is trivial... people should (and I wish they would) consider things there to be no more than advertisements- for any real support or 'advanced info' should come from the mod author's personal site... be it forums, wiki, blog... site proper... Whatever the method(s), the 'preferred source' should be easy to find and well laid out... If you want to avoid 1,000 'when's 1.0 out' threads then you can't expect people to go on a scavenger hunt for some idea. Blog's are great... but not for this purpose so much, they rely too heavily on a timeline structure. Sorry, I just feel that there is no excuse for the chosen attitude when no effort is made to alleviate the root cause.


    Personal Tale- I'm just getting started with Minecraft, currently only using BuildCraft, IC2 and IC2<>BC power converters, I've been waiting since the 1.9PR's to add other mods (Forestry for BC, RP perhaps, etc.). Now... had it been a bit more clear what the IC2 development schedule would have been I DEFINITELY would not have waited. But given what it takes to mod and configure and mod the server and client it seemed to make more sense to wait... had I known my choice of mods were going to hold me at 1.8.1 this long then I could have taken better advantage of updates to BC and F-BC. Had I known there was to be an additional 1.8.1 IC2 release after the 1.0 MC release I would have had every reason to go ahead and add the mods I've been waiting on and to keep up with updates to my current mods...


    It's not about impatience... it's about being able to plan properly with the information from multiple sources (and multiple sources for the multiple sources).

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    Timelines- that's why you set generous timelines. No one will complain if something is released a week early, or if the release is a bit more polished because you had a chance to look over it a couple more times.


    No, they;ll complain because "OMG! It's going to take THAT LONG! CAN'T YOU GO ANY FASTER?!?!!1!" Don't believe me? Then explain why the day after MC 1.0 released (if not sooner), people were already asking "when will this be updated for 1.0" on nearly every mod thread on the MC Forum.


    Quote

    Sorry, I just feel that there is no excuse for the chosen attitude when no effort is made to alleviate the root cause.


    No excuse is necessary - the developers have no obligation to you, So your attitude that it's "inexcusable" smacks of entitlement.


    Quote

    I've been waiting since the 1.9PR's to add other mods (Forestry for BC, RP perhaps, etc.). Now... had it been a bit more clear what the IC2 development schedule would have been I DEFINITELY would not have waited... had I known my choice of mods were going to hold me at 1.8.1 this long then I could have taken better advantage of updates to BC and F-BC.


    See what I mean about people not reading forum posts? Alblaka has stated that here many times between the 1.23 release and now - and on his blog as well. It was no secret.


    Quote

    It's not about impatience... it's about being able to plan properly with the information from multiple sources (and multiple sources for the multiple sources).


    Those sources were available to you - it's up to you to use them, and then accept the consequences of your choices. It's no one else's "fault" that you chose to wait.

    Why do you have to make it like that Headhunter? I'm trying to discuss and illustrate my opinion on the scenario and you seem to be taking an antagonistic, inflammatory approach. You are making excuses without taking previous points into consideration. For example- talking about MCForum user behavior has already been nullified due to my comment about those threads should be considered advertisement only and support should come from the individual mod sites. You can say that someone has stated something as many times as you would like to say they have stated it, but my point about not having to go on a scavenger hunt to find it STILL nullifies that excuse. Not to mention that it does no good for that info to be the 17th reply to a thread about something else entirely.


    Despite your accusation to the contrary I totally understand that project developers do not owe me a damn thing. There is no guarantee of further development from any mod developer (or even Mojang for that matter). But beyond that the only thing I have left to say is that what you view as entitlement, I view as patronage... Did I mention that I'm a Developer for a 1600 member gaming community that is looking to expand? Or that we're a non-profit that operates at a surplus? Or that legally we have to liquidate all surplus funds? ...I refuse to work with bad attitudes or for a bad attitude to benefit from my community.


    Point is that I know what I'm talking about and I know where I'm coming from- You, Headhunter, obviously do not. I stand by my point that it shouldn't be a scavenger hunt to find information. If Alblaka is too busy to keep things updated then it should fall to his forum staff to get some 'Official Info' threads started in some conspicuous places. ...Maybe a new 'FAQ's' sub-forum above 'General Discussion' off the forum root. People shouldn't have to read 80 forum threads AND the 10 pages of replies AND a wiki AND a dev blog to get a clue and users shouldn't be banned for asking unless there is a clear, impossible-to-miss and up-to-date info source. (Notice I said 'source' not 'sources').


    PS, why are you quoting me on 'fault' when I never used the word? I CHOSE to wait, I understand that... it was my CHOICE. My issue is that I might not have made that choice had I been given a clearer picture of the landscape. Instead someone hid part of the picture under the couch, another part was behind the TV... found a small bit of it in my dirty clothes hamper... I think my dog got the rest of it though. Found it... the rest of the picture was in the refrigerator behind the milk.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    I can see where the op is coming from a bit. But ultimately it's really no one's fault. Many people who have been following IC2's developement already know where to look for the information, but someone like the op stated that is just getting into it can easily be overwhelmed and find it hard to get all the information since it's spread across 4 sites. Yes that's right 4 sites to get all the info you'd like to know about the dev of IC2.


    So say your a new user, maybe you just saw a cool direwolf20 video or one of the million streamers on Twitch.tv streaming IC2. More than likely your going to go to the minecraft forums and look up IC2 and you'll find the non updated thread there that provides a link to the forums here and also at the bottom of it a link to the wiki. Prior to Dec 2nd there was no info on either of those two locations on when/if IC2 was being released for 1.0. There was nothing on the wiki and rightfully so, and on here it was all speculation but nothing that said what was going to be updated. You had to know about Alblaka's blog. Which if you were a new user you probably wouldn't know about, and after a quick search just now I didn't find anything even on this site directing someone to it.


    Now those of us that did know about the blog obviously knew what was going on, and rightfully so people were getting pissed here that numerous posts were going up asking "WHEN IS IC2 COMING OMG!!!!1!" because they just couldn't find that information easily.


    A simple solution is maybe to have someone besides Alblaka update the MC forums, these forums and the wiki in regards to projected updates. Since he regularly maintains his blog, a lot of that information doesn't always make it onto these boards which is where I think the disconnect was. Or have a link more easily accessible here and on MC forums to Alblaka's Blog since that mostly pertains to how the development is going. Won't solve the problem with stupid people but it will solve the problem of making it easier for people to know all the resources too look on for information on IC2.



    Either way in the end it wasn't Alblaka not putting the info out, or the OP not trying to find the info, it was just the info was spread around on many different sources, where if you've been around awhile know where to look, but if your new you just don't. Anyways, just my thoughts on the matter. And I think all the op is asking for, is for the new user an easier way of finding out what's going with IC2 which seems easy and doable.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    Why do you have to make it like that Headhunter? I'm trying to discuss and illustrate my opinion on the scenario and you seem to be taking an antagonistic, inflammatory approach. You are making excuses without taking previous points into consideration.


    I'm not trying to be antagonistic - you seem pretty reasonable, just misguided. I'm not the one making excuses. As I said, there can be no "excuses" because you are not owed anything. They don't need to justify their position because they are not accountable for what you do with the information that was already available.


    Quote

    You can say that someone has stated something as many times as you would like to say they have stated it, but my point about not having to go on a scavenger hunt to find it STILL nullifies that excuse.


    What's YOUR excuse for not reading THIS forum and seeing what has been stated in many threads here? There's also a Wiki and Alblaka's blog. The information is available from several sources - you needn't check them all, any one of them would have given you the information you need. This lends me to believe that you didn't make the effort - so how on Earth can you expect someone to tell you? Were you expecting an email or phone call from the IC team?


    Quote

    Did I mention that I'm a Developer for a 1600 member gaming community that is looking to expand? Point is that I know what I'm talking about and I know where I'm coming from- You, Direwolf, obviously do not.


    Direwolf20 has done more for the IC community (as well as BC and RP) than just about anyone else short of the actual developers. All you've done is come here, complain, make excuses for yourself and point fingers. and you wonder why you get an "antagonistic" response? Isn't that what you were looking for?


    Basically, you don't read the forums, you don't read the blog, you don't read the Wiki... and you wonder why the information wasn't "clear" to you. All I can say is, it's clear that you expect others to make more of an effort for your convenience than you do. You can't be bothered to look, and the IC team can't be bothered to cater to you.


    And seriously, you need to put this all into perspective. You act like your decision to hold off on the other mods cost lives or something. IT'S A GAME. What is your REAL issue here?

    Quote from Stay4

    someone like the op stated that is just getting into it can easily be overwhelmed and find it hard to get all the information since it's spread across 4 sites. Yes that's right 4 sites to get all the info you'd like to know about the dev of IC2.


    It's not "spread across" those sites, it's there for redundancy. One needn't check the blog or wiki or MCF if one reads this forum - which is where the OP expected the information to be. Yet, here it was, for weeks now, and he didn't see it? Because he didn't look.


    Any time something relevant has been added to one of the other sites, it's been mentioned here. Someone who's so keen on up-to-date information should at least be making more than a cursory effort to research it.

    Stay4


    Thank you. Your post seems to sum up the essence in a much less harsh way than my own.



    <1> - ...excuse is a bit off I suppose. More of a personal aspect, maybe. Kinda like there's no excuse not to hold a door for someone... even a total stranger.


    <2> - I'll admit it... I don't read every reply to every thread, tend to browse more than I search... But when I browse it's usually by avatar- maybe whoever's been talking about update speculation hasn't made it onto my 'avatar-radar' yet... Still leaves plenty of room for a FAQ somewhere.


    <3> - Apparently not 100% accurate. See stay4's above post.


    <4> - See... this is similar to what I interpreted as antagonizing and inflaming earlier. Up above you accused me of seeming "...pretty reasonable..." yet here you accuse me of expecting something that would be pretty damn unreasonable :D :P ...email would be doable though, just set up a mailing list...


    <5> - You're totally right... I'm new... got confused for a second while I was writing and didn't catch the mistake. Actually saw these replies when I realized my mistake and returned to fix... Sorry DireWolf, got you confused with Headhunter for a second.


    <6> - Sorry if my posts had a sense of urgency that I didn't at all intend... Rest assured though, I'm completely aware that the Sun will still rise tomorrow even without a 1.0.0 IC2. No doubts about it at all... It's the tides I'm worried about... pretty sure there'll be massive flooding if it's not out by next Thursday though...


    <7> I looked. Sometimes I lose my glasses and find them on my face later though, if that tells you anything. ...But I've been around enough to know that 'update request = ban... I realize I'm ahead of the game over most users on that, but even that would be a great place to have a link to a 'Loose Projected Update Timeline' thread.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

    Quote from Saul_Goode

    You're totally right... I'm new... got confused for a second while I was writing and didn't catch the mistake. Actually saw these replies when I realized my mistake and returned to fix... Sorry DireWolf, got you confused with Headhunter for a second.


    That will probably let you off the hook with him - but if that means you were talking about me instead? I don't come close to his contributions, but I've still done more for the IC community than someone whose only posts here have been criticism of the way the team handles update information. I find it sadly ironic that you posture yourself as someone who "knows what he's talking about", when the whole issue is that you clearly don't know what's going on around here.


    Since it seems like a lot of effort for you to look around for the info you need, I'll give you a blanket summary from someone who's been around for a few months:


    The next version will be ready when Alblaka feels it's ready.
    There is no projected date because all it takes to throw off such a date is for Mojang to decide to update something that breaks IC's work in progress.
    A "rough estimate" is useless, considering how inaccurate it could be.


    In short, you have plenty of time to get on with your life and do all those important things that IC 2 was holding you back from. How inconsinderate of them - don't they know who you are? :rolleyes:

    • Official Post

    Some heated discussion, but fromk my quick look i couldn't spot any flaming or trolling. If that level is kept, i will leave this thread open, but i'm afraid it will derail soon.


    @Banning:
    Basic rule: This forum is hosted privately without any responsibilitys towards any users. People tend to forget that "omg stupid forum" is for free and they aren't actually need to use it.
    I do not consider it "harsh" or "unfair" in any way if somebody takes the right to do whatever he wants in his own house/website/forum. Most people never think about this fact and usually don't bother to think about it either, even after being pointed at it.
    I will continue to enforce the rules set within this website as i see it fit, no excuse. As previously mentioned, anybody disareeing with that attitude is free to leave, it's not hard to set up an own forum.


    I'm not trying to be an ass or mean in general, but if i say "Ask for an update date and you will get banned", that's a rule and it will be enforced.
    And to mention the obvious: Given the number of people active on this site, compared with those in the MCF IC thread, we have quite noone asking stupid questions. A few spam-marked comments on the blog then and when, that's all.
    I would dare to consider my way of handling things, due to this fact, effective, as well.


    Given this attitude appears trivially correct and justified (to me) AND proves to work out the way it was intended for, why should I possibly change it?


    @Information policy:
    You mentioned you're upset about me "freakin out" in the MCF thread and requesting a lock on it and suggested to instead leave a post. Do you seriously think anyone will possibly read that post instead of spamming a crappy question? Now, surely a few people would, but those people wouldnt ask in first place = No effect. Often enough big red letters in the OP got ignored as well, thus thats not a valid alternative either.
    "How about we create a seperate thread-like announcement for anything informative?"
    >> http://www.industrial-craft.net/
    Exactly what i'm doing, on a website i can actually clean myself with a few clicks, opposed to Mr.Buerocracy MCForum.



    Any further questions?

    Well spoken.


    And really, all you want Saul_goode is a release date where there is none to be had. And you want to ask about it, that is pretty clear to me.
    So let's say there was a release date... hmm, let me just make something up like Dec 21st...
    Now, we have two options available to us here, either we release on time (and leave the release full of bugs and missing features due to lack of time) or we miss the deadline and the forums fill up with "YOU ARE LATE!" posts and "When will we get an update to MC X.Y.Z??!?!??!?!?111ONE?"
    These forums are not meant for update requests, it's not meant for complaining about release schedules. If you don't like it then that's quite alright with me (and afaik, alright with Al too) as long as you don't pester anyone on the forums about it. Because let's face it, posts asking for updates is nothing more than a plague. It clutters up the forum and wastes precious time and steals attention from more important questions/issues/discussions.


    So, there is no release on Dec 21st... You will simply have to live with not knowing because nobody really truly knows until it is done. We could just as well say December 2020, it would be just as much true as any other date.
    And if there wasn't any rules about asking for release dates then this forum would be 50% spam about release dates and update requests.
    I prefer the ban rule over that prospect any day of the week.

    It's hard enough achieving a release date when you're working full time on a project. I don't know how these guys would do it in amongst the rest of their lives...

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

    At the same time however, simply not having a release date while everything else does still has the same result as missing a release date anyway. :p

    You make it sound like failure to assign and adhere to an arbitrary release date constitutes some kind of broken promise.
    You're blissfully unaware that such an attitude is precisely the reason why you won't get a release date.


    Do you think bugging the developer is going to get it done faster? And what makes you think you deserve it "now"?
    Wait until it's ready, however long that takes. If you can't, find something else to do in the meantime.

    Quote from HeadHunter67

    You make it sound like failure to assign and adhere to an arbitrary release date constitutes some kind of broken promise.
    You're blissfully unaware that such an attitude is precisely the reason why you won't get a release date.


    Do you think bugging the developer is going to get it done faster? And what makes you think you deserve it "now"?
    Wait until it's ready, however long that takes. If you can't, find something else to do in the meantime.


    Damned kids and their instant gratification. We didn't spank you all enough.

    Who ever said I wanted a release date? Putting words in people's mouth isn't a good plan. I'm simply implying the even though they didn't release a date or anything, that while other mods slowly jump the ship people are bound to go "Man I wonder what is taking industrialcraft2 so long." Producing the same outcome as if missing a release date.

    Quote from Cubey42

    Putting words in people's mouth isn't a good plan.
    Producing the same outcome as if missing a release date.


    Listen to yourself. You talk about not putting words into other's mouths, but you presume to speak for others and then you use that hypothetical opinion to arrive at an inaccurate conclusion.


    By the way, do you know what happens here when someone says "What's taking so long for 1.0?" :whistling:

    That is one nice thing about Bukkit; they've got that source repository. Even ignoring the nightly builds, it has a (mostly) public changelog. Seeing that progress helps assuage doubts like 'nothings happening, OMG when will it be done?'.

    That sounds good, but let's be honest. Most of the clamor comes from people who can't even be bothered to read a sticky - you can be sure they wouldn't be reading the changelog, let alone understanding it.