Discussion about conversion mods.

ELoraam's a very decent coder, but an uncreative person, and RP2 can decompile itself for all I care.

Quote from Kuudere

ELoraam's a very decent coder, but an uncreative person, and RP2 can decompile itself for all I care.

Comments like this are highly unwelcomed/unnecessary, especially on a thread that i believe was finally put to rest. If you (Or anyone else) dont really have anything more intelligent to give to this discussion, then let it rest peacefully.

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If you (Or anyone else) dont really have anything more intelligent to give to this discussion, then let it rest peacefully.

How self imposing of you...

Considering that the main pro/antagonists in this thread have been banned due to other, semi-correlated events, I'm pretty sure this thread is dead. However I do want to weight in on some last valid things to consider why this is an issue...

Here's a great example: Flowerchild. He's a modder with considerable skill with Java and a modification with semi-decent content and materials to add to the game. He doesn't allow mod pack, and doesn't like people altering his code due to the simple fact that he loves his design (way too damn much). Now while he has a right to be an exclusionist with his material, it does reflect poorly on his character to do so, due to the fact that he creates an inherit disservice to his fan-base. This disservice is key, because it does relate to Eloraam actions. What Flowerchild did over the course the course of his 'stay' with the Forge team was demonstrate a lack of cooperation and inability to compromise his game design when faced with the "consequences" of compatibility. This, on top of other pressures not-to-be-mentioned-here *chuckle*, is what would later cause him to leave Forge and gate his design around sheer nepotism with his mod...


However, realize that he IS allowed to do that with Better than Wolves, because he created that mod...


Yet in that token, it doesn't mean that players will want to pick up BTW anytime soon, due to the simple fact that there are better and more effective mods out there with much more valuable content. Players are driven away from his attitudes and behaviors that he has does, as well as his berating choices in game design and lack of compatibility. This causes his mod to 'depreciate in value'. which in a figurative sense his hard to convey, so I'll attempt to make it simple. BTW is not 'worth' the time that people want to invest in it due to his actions/opinions/decisions around his mod. This means that less and less people are likely to pick that mod up, and less likely to use his work in their gameplay...


Now while it's simple to disregard BTW due to how it's made, let's look back at Eloraam's work. She literally ported Forge to 1.8 by herself, has worked extremely hard on designing most of the hooks on the API system. With that in mind, if she creates the same type of environment with Redpower, she'll have more pull on the Forge team that FC did, due to how much involvement she's invested into the API system in the first place. This is something to seriously consider because she does have the potential to not only schism the loyalties in the Forge team, but ultimately shatter the project as a whole, as modders will begin to pull out of the API system due to their distrust of her. It's quite a scary scenario to consider, as her time and work investment into the Forge. Which, in many respects, is the reason several members on this and other MC mod forums are afraid of the possible actions she may take against others if they 'don't fit her design/progression in work'. I can't say I blame them to be concerned...


However, I honestly doubt someone who has invested the amount of effort and trouble into Forge would go about egotistically undermining other developers using the same system. True, it is good to air on the side of caution due to her actions, but hopefully that volatility may not come to pass, as this would undo ALL the time/effort she's invested. And while people want crossover mods with Blutircity ASAP, they also have to keep in mind that Redpower isn't completely finished. Sure it's playable, but it's far from stand-alone content at this point...




tl;dr: There is reason to be concerned about her actions, as they devalue the opinion of Forge with her decisions and actions over Redpower. But at the same time, I doubt she will do something so rash with RP that people drop that mod (and other mods that connect to it) due to said actions. Yes, it does make a few uneasy, but I say let's give her more time. She wants to do the energy crossover herself (I can almost bet that it's going to be based around a Volt*Amp = Watt(EU) system of energy transfer), and wants the proper 'tools' in place for the player to do so. Let's leave her be, because I do believe she'll deliver on what most of her playerbase wants...

But forge its not a creation of eloraam, it was orinally made by spacetoad and many others have watched over the project as their mantainers, Eloraam was one of those (I think lexmannos its the most recent one) and she did many good things for the forge project but that it, she doesnt rule forge nor does she have any right to "Veto" or simply change the basic structure of forge if she doesnt have a good justification for doing so.

On the other hand, Redpower which is fully creation of her mind and work, something that she has the total right off, and if something happens that involves redpower and she doesnt like, she can pretty much vanish that "Something" into the 8 circle of hell if she wants to, its her work, her time, her rules.

(Btw my remark was mostly because i saw nobody replied in days, did not know that saul and headhunter was banned, and i also found insulting the comment i quoted on that post)

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Here's a great example: Flowerchild. He's a modder with considerable skill with Java and a modification with semi-decent content and materials to add to the game. He doesn't allow mod pack, and doesn't like people altering his code due to the simple fact that he loves his design (way too damn much). Now while he has a right to be an exclusionist with his material, it does reflect poorly on his character to do so, due to the fact that he creates an inherit disservice to his fan-base. This disservice is key, because it does relate to Eloraam actions. What Flowerchild did over the course the course of his 'stay' with the Forge team was demonstrate a lack of cooperation and inability to compromise his game design when faced with the "consequences" of compatibility. This, on top of other pressures not-to-be-mentioned-here *chuckle*, is what would later cause him to leave Forge and gate his design around sheer nepotism with his mod...

Yet in that token, it doesn't mean that players will want to pick up BTW anytime soon, due to the simple fact that there are better and more effective mods out there with much more valuable content. Players are driven away from his attitudes and behaviors that he has does, as well as his berating choices in game design and lack of compatibility. This causes his mod to 'depreciate in value'. which in a figurative sense his hard to convey, so I'll attempt to make it simple. BTW is not 'worth' the time that people want to invest in it due to his actions/opinions/decisions around his mod. This means that less and less people are likely to pick that mod up, and less likely to use his work in their gameplay...

You are aware that leaving forge actually increased the popularity of BtW? At least it increased the amount of downloads and the popularity of the mod, which again increased as FC and SpaceToad released BtB.

His main problem with forge actually was that forge is incombatible with most not-forge things, since it modifies so many baseclasses that you only have the option of playing forge-mods or playing none-forge-mods. It actually isn't even combatible with Optifine.

Actually it also is a maybe even more important reason. It's fun. Modding within Forge wasn't fun for FC anymore, so he stopped. That alone is reason enough. He only does this for his personal fun. There are several examples showing this.

-No Adfly or anything around money not even a donation-link
-He is really not serious, just look at the Modname (and the small additions)
-He normally is a dick, because this is fun too and it's often also fun to read this

He just mods for himself, not for others. I don't see anything wrong with it. And he isn't that problematic, he is much like Elo a bit stubborn in some situation, which might be the main reason they don't come along that well.

The Problem most people have with FC is that they expect him to owe them something. And he tries to show them as good as he can that this is not the case (mainly by making fun of them).

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Now while it's simple to disregard BTW due to how it's made, let's look back at Eloraam's work. She literally ported Forge to 1.8 by herself, has worked extremely hard on designing most of the hooks on the API system. With that in mind, if she creates the same type of environment with Redpower, she'll have more pull on the Forge team that FC did, due to how much involvement she's invested into the API system in the first place. This is something to seriously consider because she does have the potential to not only schism the loyalties in the Forge team, but ultimately shatter the project as a whole, as modders will begin to pull out of the API system due to their distrust of her. It's quite a scary scenario to consider, as her time and work investment into the Forge. Which, in many respects, is the reason several members on this and other MC mod forums are afraid of the possible actions she may take against others if they 'don't fit her design/progression in work'. I can't say I blame them to be concerned...

Actually Forge =! Eloraam. She doesn't even works much on forge. The only reason she had done so much for forge is that her mod uses forge more than most others and most hooks are written by her, so she was porting them (actually lately LexManos is also doing this). But since many hooks originally made for Redpower are now widely used Forge is losing much of it's "eloraamness". And actually Forge is open-source and inside the actual Forge-Team she is nothing more than a contributer and she actually never was anything more. If you want to call a person the "maintainer" of forge it is LexManos and SpaceToad (mainly Lex lately). Eloraam is just a contributor, although she created Forge together with spacetoad in the first place, but it's not her project.

And although she dislikes people to mess with her code she is quite helpful if you want to know something about porting your mod to forge etc.

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There is reason to be concerned about her actions, as they devalue the opinion of Forge with her decisions and actions over Redpower.

You confuse something there. Most modders have some kind of understanding, they might do it differently for themself, but they accept her way of doing it. And actually she even helps modders out with some things regarding her way of coding. The opinion of forge inside the user-base is a quite different thing. But nothing that should matter for a modder. Actually you have some more or less strong bounds between modders too. Eloraam tends to speak more often to SpaceToad or Player than to other modders. She has no problem with BC implementing Logic Gates, since she clearly sees the fact that there is a need for such things. They may have spoken, or will speak about streamlining BCs Blueprints to be usable with moditems better (exspecially with RP). And actually they also talked about the Pipe/Tube-Thing. And the connections between RP and IC2 are quite obvious. The reason for this is really simple. She playes BC and IC2 herself and is again a proof of modders modding for themself. And modders created forge for themself etc. If people understand that the purpose of a modder is not to fullfill every desire of the community, they will most likely understand why modders act as they do.

PS: Just read the EE-Topic or at least the ChangeLogs. Xeno normally mentions if he gets help from other modders and the name eloraam shows up in his thread quite commonly. Also you should praise player a little bit, since he is also quite helpful to other modders (he helped SpaceToad with some pipe-thing and also Xeno).

Now that i remember, the most obvious way to show that eloraam does actually help around the modding community is the meta block method for storing new blocks and stuff, iirc the one who originally developed (Or at least played around with it a lot) was eloraam, and as you can see many modders today use her method to save that huge amount of blocks that gets added with every mod.

Quote from Bluehorazon

Bluehorazon

You missed the point entirely.. The point was that while she's a great programmer, there is cause for concern for her hard-handed actions against not allowing add-ons, as they limit the level of customization of Redpower in some degrees of cross functionality. However, you did help validate the point of 'she's still a great team member with Forge, and willingly helps people where she can regardless', so I guess I can forgive you with that at least...

And no, I don't buy that BS of 'it wasn't fun to mod with Forge' from FC. He didn't like the way his mod was getting altered by other mods. Hell, he'd pitch a fit when I'd tell him I would custom recipe out of changes I didn't feel were necessary. His leaving had NOTHING to do with it not being 'fun' anymore. It was more about control, and he knew if he stayed with Forge he couldn't continually maintain it 100% over his mod and his gameplay design..

Eloraam is greatly different in that respect. She doesn't disallow the add-ons because she 'doesn't want them'. She disallows the add-ons because she wants them to be done 'right' or done at a level that properly fits with how Blutricity works at its base, and how that connects to the functions of other mods. If we were to say that Blu power is Volts, then the EU is a Watt, and I do think that it will be a point that she wants to emphases due to her experience as an electrical engineer. This also explains why she doesn't want add-on creators to make 'magic box' add-ons to convert power back and forth, because they are both unrealistic and miss the point of how electricity works in the real world, as well as the fact that it's hard to accommodate other Blu power generators when you have $%@#$@!converters running around for this/that/and the other, mod in the Forge...

So no, I don't blame her for her actions. True, it may worry others (and they do have a right to be worried in some ways), but I understand the logic that she's going by. She merely needs time to test/debug/f-ing test/ f-ing debug it all. Once she's finished, I'm sure all of this will become a non-issue.

(and on a semi-related note: Part of my personal interest in designing alternative energy applications was thru inspiration from Industrialcraft and mods like it, as it does fairly parallel with the scientific logic of geology and engineering in many ways. Eloraam may also be doing the same by inspiring others to take up real-life circuity and electrical trades thru the ease-of-use of gameplay and parallel scientific conceptualization of her mod.)

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You missed the point entirely.. The point was that while she's a great programmer, there is cause for concern for her hard-handed actions against not allowing add-ons, as they limit the level of customization of Redpower in some degrees of cross functionality. However, you did help validate the point of 'she's still a great team member with Forge, and willingly helps people where she can regardless', so I guess I can forgive you with that at least...

Hmm...

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This is something to seriously consider because she does have the potential to not only schism the loyalties in the Forge team, but ultimately shatter the project as a whole, as modders will begin to pull out of the API system due to their distrust of her.

To make it short, she doesn't have the potential to do anything with forge. First it is open-source who ever wants could continue it (well but since Lex and SpaceToad are mainly maintaining forge, she could not drop development, since she isn't really some kind of forge-developer). Second there is a lot of work put into making the code easy to maintain, because it is quite a lot of code til now this is a need regardless of who maintains it. Third she never was more than a contributor. There was no time at which she was activly leading forge and she never wanted that (since she recognizes that she is not the best at such anyway).

And I'm not aware of a modder that is naming eloraam as a reason not to join forge, more likely some are hesitating because of the problems with the latest versions (since 1.0 every second version of forge had some errors.

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And no, I don't buy that BS of 'it wasn't fun to mod with Forge' from FC. He didn't like the way his mod was getting altered by other mods. Hell, he'd pitch a fit when I'd tell him I would custom recipe out of changes I didn't feel were necessary. His leaving had NOTHING to do with it not being 'fun' anymore. It was more about control, and he knew if he stayed with Forge he couldn't continually maintain it 100% over his mod and his gameplay design..

What ever reason should he have? At the time FC decided to leave forge eloraam was the main person to include new hooks. They both have a totally different oppinion about what forge should be. Eloraam likes the more offensive approach of doing almost everything with forge, and if someone needs a hook it will most likely be done (she shares the oppinion about world-breaking changes like blockextenders). FC on the other hand wanted forge to be much smaller so that it is easier to port and is more flexibel. The example is the torch on subblocks thing. To make torches work with blocks like RPs Microblocks the change of 13 baseclasses was needed. While FC would just dropped the idea about placing torches on subblocks eloraam made the changes in forge. It's nothing wrong with either position, but if you have so totally different oppinions about such things it isn't fun working with each other. And at this moment this is about fun. It just created a dependency which was unfortunate for him. Since at this time Forge mainly consisted of Eloraams code, which made him in fact somehow dependend on her. He might had stepped back from this move if he would have known that eloraam steps back from her heavy work on forge, but now it would be stupid to port everything back since the Mod-API should be around soon. So I get why this is not much fun.

And actually he was right about the modification. I find it sometimes fun inside this forum that people create an addon and now feel that they have some kind of right to demand making this addon the standard (mostly because it makes something easier). This was mainly the same with BtW. BtW is the propably most balanced mod, which gives you some kind of challange, while making some thing easier. And BtW never really worked with most Forge-Mods, Railcraft was one of the few exceptions. Why should you people use hoppers if there are cheap BC-Pipes or RP-tubes? All things that BtW made harder are made easier with most of the other techmods. And actually it was somehow strange that people ask him to change things in his mod, because over mods are having this and that etc. Again... he never stated this as a reason, but I guess it also wasn't fun.

Oh... and it actually was fun for him to also fuck the technic-pack, since they never bothered to include BtW after his forge-drop since this would have required them to modify something on one of the mods, which was actually outside their ability (or they were to lazy, no idea). Oh and he now has full control and is a lot more independend, which could also result in more fun.

I'm not quite sure why BtW became so popular after he left forge, but I guess it has something to do with BtW always being some kind of 5th wheel on a car that could easily drive without it (well... actually with BC, IC2 and RP the car only has 3 wheels... but well). And as a stand-alone BtW is just a lot more fun.

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Eloraam is greatly different in that respect. She doesn't disallow the add-ons because she 'doesn't want them'. She disallows the add-ons because she wants them to be done 'right' or done at a level that properly fits with how Blutricity works at its base, and how that connects to the functions of other mods.

Might I ask what makes you thinking that Eloraams reasons are any different in this regards than FCs?

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I have no problem at all with that man. I believe others have already created add-ons that behave in that way.

Best of luck with it

A quote of FC allowing addons... which he does much like eloraam, no fiddling around with his code, but other things are ok. Oh... and actually FC helped the creator of Millenaire to use some forge-classes to stay combatible with forge and btw at the same time.

The problem of the bad standing between him and eloraam might somehow be based on the fact that they are quite similar. FC due to his experience (he is a veteran-coder... at least) and eloraam...( i guess mainly because of the same reason) are maybe the most experienced modders (at least of major content-mods...) in MC. This is most likely the reason why they like their work and are somehow proud of it. This was most likely the reason why the simple thing of copying Flax of BtWs Hemp created such a deep trench (it is the only thing that you could even think of as something copied from BtW^^) . And... well they are both stubborn... at least in certain situations, which doesn't help either. For MC-Players and at least forge-users FCs withdrawal from forge had some positive effects, and it is quite funny, that both sides benefit from it.

1. FCs complains about the difficulty to get hooks approved for forge, which where shared by SpaceToad and CovertJaguar actually lead to some improvements, and LexManos is actually improving forge and it's handling even more. Maybe this would have happened regardless of FC, but he maybe he made it happen a bit faster.

2. BtW became more popular for whatever reason.

3. His more or less silent dropping of forge limited the damage this could have caused. Most of the discussion about him dropping forge was inside the BtW-Forums and was not hurting the reputation of Forge. (just read his official post, he avoided any fighting or even naming)

So actually this was a Win-Win-Situation (although most people would not have expected it to be one). If FC would have stayed with forge, although having some problems with eloraam this would have most likely caused trouble for both of them and this would most likely have caused some damage to forge-reputation and development.

Actually they both behaved like it should be. If you can't work with someone, you have only two good options, sorting it out or avoiding each other. Sorting things out doesn't always work exspecially if you have so different attidudes.

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Third she never was more than a contributor. There was no time at which she was activly leading forge and she never wanted that (since she recognizes that she is not the best at such anyway).

Now I know for a fact that's a damn lie. She did MOST if not all of the work on the 1.8 port of Forge due to the changes in the Mojang lighting code. Without her, 1.8 forge probably wouldn't have happened within the time frame that it did. Due to this, she's created quite an influence on Forge's development, but all of those influences have helped the team in many ways than originally intended...

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And I'm not aware of a modder that is naming eloraam as a reason not to join forge, more likely some are hesitating because of the problems with the latest versions (since 1.0 every second version of forge had some errors.

True, but I know for a fact TehKrush would not pick up MCForge due to Flowerchild's involvement with it. Which, in hindsight, I can't say I blame him (I still owe TehKrush an apology, lol), and as such, he integrated his mod with Forge soon after FC left. Bugs in MCForge are not the fault of any programmer, but mostly due to the imperfections of having to rewrite Mojang's mostly sloppy Java code and framework (as many in other threads has pointed out Notch's buggy system of enchantments, lol)...

Quote from MagusUnion

Now I know for a fact that's a damn lie. She did MOST if not all of the work on the 1.8 port of Forge due to the changes in the Mojang lighting code. Without her, 1.8 forge probably wouldn't have happened within the time frame that it did. Due to this, she's created quite an influence on Forge's development, but all of those influences have helped the team in many ways than originally intended...

This was mainly because 1.8.1 consisted primarly of code for redpower. At this point Forge actually was literally a RP-API, since she made a lot of hooks for Redpower and of course she needs to port them, since they weren't that well commented this time around. This changed later, and the later ports are mainly done by LexManos. But at this time, the contributers ported the hooks they contributed by themself, which means that Eloraam ported forge because it was mainly her code, but this doesn't make her the leader of forge anyway.

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True, but I know for a fact TehKrush would not pick up MCForge due to Flowerchild's involvement with it. Which, in hindsight, I can't say I blame him (I still owe TehKrush an apology, lol), and as such, he integrated his mod with Forge soon after FC left. Bugs in MCForge are not the fault of any programmer, but mostly due to the imperfections of having to rewrite Mojang's mostly sloppy Java code and framework (as many in other threads has pointed out Notch's buggy system of enchantments, lol)...

FC was never more than a helpful hand to some people wanting to port their mods over to forge or remain combatible with it, even if not using it. Actually he still does this. So he is as involved in Forge without using it as he has been while he was using it. The only main oppinion he brought into Forge-Development was the idea of not making save-breaking changes, something that is shared with most others within. Most of his other ideas are voiced down by the forge-contributers. Actually FC is somehow still using forge. But only the parts he needs. And he is still encouraging people to use it, which is mainly because he likes the idea of the API.

Quote from Alblaka

In this regard,i would like to disagree.

If you relate "experiene" to "time spent active in the MC modding community", they are by no means the most experienced.
MCP team?
Risugami?
TehKrush?
Shockah?
THESE are the "veteran-coders" as you labelled it.

Sure, Eloraam, SpaceToad, FlowerChild and probably me are the "current generation of tech-themed modders". And actually Eloraam is probably one of the most brilliant for MC there is. But i would neitehr call her "veteran" or "most experienced", compared to the really "old" guys.

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No, not based on modding MC but programming in general. Eloraam worked on other things before MC and FlowerChild actually is a programmer with a lot of working experience. So in this is what I meant with "most experienced" maybe they are even some of the "senior modders" :P. Maybe his coding-experience surpass your own life-experience (he states that he worked 15 years as a professional and does it since 25-30 years. So maybe you could agree that this is more than the average modder comes up with.

I'm not sure about eloraam. But I would guess that Redpower isn't her first work either. Although she never worked professional as a programmer (this is a guess, but he learned a different job), she is quite familar with old CPUs like 6502 or the Z80 and knows alot about them and seems to have worked with them. I guess although an electrical engineer not necessarily is a programmer it seems obvious that she developed her knowledge connected to her job, since the ability to code was and is a great + in most technical jobs.

So veteran was related to actual coding experience regardless of minecraft. It was just an impression about saying that they both know what they do. Maybe I'm making you younger than you are but I guess you are not even old enough to surpass FC in regards to his coding-experience

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Well, look man, I don't think I'm your typical modder. I think most of the guys doing this are starting off in programming, or studying it in school.

I worked in the game-industry for about 15 years, and if I can say anything about the experience I'd say "if you really love something, you might want to think long and hard before doing it for a living".

I left it about 2 years ago, and it's only now that I'm starting to enjoy making games again.

So, for me, a very distinct line was drawn between making games for a living, and making them for fun, and it's probably why I'm reluctant to bring money into the equation again, even in the form of donations.

Before my career, I grew up making games for fun man, and I seem to only now be rediscovering that passion. Hopefully you can understand why I don't want to risk compromising that.

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I admit, my evaluation of eloraams experience is a bit more assumptious since she doesn't speak about this that often, and somehow I don't want to ask her just to proof that she and FC are a different kind of generation of programmers than some of the other modders. Most do this next to studies etc. which normally means that they have far less experience and are at least a decade younger. I won't spekulate about eloraams age... girls tend to not like this, and I don't have a clear hint about her age either

Quote from HeadHunter67

[quote='Saul_Goode',index.php?page=Thread&postID=34359#post34359] Not her work. immibis's work that hooks into her work. Into Alblaka's work. Same way her work hooks into Mojang's work.

Immibis' code is useless without Eloraam's code. He's even explicitly admittied that he had to decompile her code to make it.
The difference between modding her work and modding Mojang's, is that Mojang gives permission to do so. Alblaka has prohibited certain uses of his code - look no further than the abortive "1.1 update" someone tried to release the other day.

That is most unfair legacy. How it's possible the original core software to allow modding and 3rd party mods to forbidden? Is anyone familiar with legal aspect? In my opinion, any additional mods are inherit same rights like core software. I have payed money for core software not for mods. Mods are free and has no contract behind them.
No offence, but union of people moders is cool, mafia is not.

Quote from boborene

Just because something is free, doesnt made there isnt a contract behind it, although you could not call it a "Contract" but more like terms of use/agreement, that you inherently agree with when you download said free software whenever you read the terms or not. The most basic of terms it that "You will not sell or distribute said software for monetary gain" a few other terms may follow like "You will not modify in any way whatsoever or distribute said modification".

And just because the "Core Software" agree to modification, it doesnt mean that 3rd party mods should also allow modification because in a way they become a "Core" of sorts with their own terms and rules, although dependant on the first core software (In this case minecraft).

Legacy of rights doesnt really apply if the original developer doesnt said so/havent specified it, and so far Mojang as only said that they permit modification to their game (In this case minecraft) nowhere in their terms stated that said modification should also allow for futher modifications from other users.

Quote from boborene

That is most unfair legacy. How it's possible the original core software to allow modding and 3rd party mods to forbidden? Is anyone familiar with legal aspect? In my opinion, any additional mods are inherit same rights like core software. I have payed money for core software not for mods. Mods are free and has no contract behind them.
No offence, but union of people moders is cool, mafia is not.

This is a decision made by each modder. FC is not even accepting donations, Alblaka does not use use Adfly, but accepts donations and some people use adfly. Actually a modder could even charge you for their mod, if they don't use base-classes, which most modders don't do, thx do forge and modloader.

So actually it is some kind of generosity that modders don't charge you. Eloraam could do it and Alblaka could do it too. Mohjang might take steps against it (it could easily shut down forge, which would mean, that the mods won't work), but it is not something that could be forbidden.

Like Mohjang decides about what you are able to do with their game every modder decides what you are able to do with his mods. And while Alblaka again has a rather openminded attidude towards this there are also modders that are more restrictive. Some post restrictive rules, because this would make everyone need to talk with them, which gives them more control.

While you are believing there is no contract behind the usage of a mod their actually is one. If you download a mod you actually agree to accept the terms of the modder (this has it's limits of course, but by downloading you are accepting their copyright). Technically a mod like IC2 or RP2 is not a 3rd-party-programm. It is individual code, which actually does not even depend on minecraft directly, but on forge. From the legal view this is a bit in the grey area since these mods don't modify Mohjangs code, so they don't fall under their copyright.

So every mod created is individual intellectual property owned by the person or the group of persons creating it. Even if you create something you are not allowed to create it is your intellectual property, which actually is protected by law. And you are allowed to use it for yourself. So if you decompile Redpower to create a mod for yourself you are allowed to use it, but not to share it (basically if you ask eloraam to make some small adjustments for your server she normally let's you do it, or even does it in her files, if it is reasonable).

So to sum it up:

The basic rule is that everyone is the king of his own work. This is true for Mohjang and Minecraft as well as for modders and their work. No modder is forced to mirror Mohjangs copyright law or anything else, they are free to decide for themself.

Quote from Alblaka

That's an extremly thin ice you're working on.

Mojang permits modifications of Minecraft for non-commercial use only.
Term "modification" can as well be interpreted to include any add-ons not directly modifying baseclasses.

Agreed... and even to a point, mods can even be considered a violation of copyright law if Mojang were to suddenly withdraw the allowance of any modifications to Minecraft's code later down the road. (and even now if they think that adfly links count enough of a profit for an individual modder, but that's highly unlikely...)

This may become an issue when a 'standardized' Mod API for Minecraft is released, but that's neither here nor there...

And I'm not going to comment on the regard of 'FC/Eloraam are more experienced in their field' argument you've used. That's irrelevant in a recreational-type environment of freelance modding. Yes, they have skills, but that doesn't determine their 'team worth' in terms of this setting, but merely how quick they'll be to update their material to new version of Minecraft...

Quote from MagusUnion

Agreed... and even to a point, mods can even be considered a violation of copyright law if Mojang were to suddenly withdraw the allowance of any modifications to Minecraft's code later down the road. (and even now if they think that adfly links count enough of a profit for an individual modder, but that's highly unlikely...)

This may become an issue when a 'standardized' Mod API for Minecraft is released, but that's neither here nor there...

And I'm not going to comment on the regard of 'FC/Eloraam are more experienced in their field' argument you've used. That's irrelevant in a recreational-type environment of freelance modding. Yes, they have skills, but that doesn't determine their 'team worth' in terms of this setting, but merely how quick they'll be to update their material to new version of Minecraft...

Actually the point with Mohjang is thin ice. If you look at there copyright we are in some kind of grey area already. If a modder would really earn money with his mod they could just hit him by hitting the forge or modloader, without trying if the ice holds. They really don't have much things they can through at him, without risking losing at court, again this is unlikely since a sane person would stop before this. But since it is very likely that they keep the upper hand regardless of how they do it, this scenario is quite unlikely. So there really isn't much need to think about it. It's actually more a theoretical and rather creepy situation.

And although the coding-experience of a modder does not clearly make him that helpful it is quite obvious that eloraam and FC have some knowledge regarding one of the most problematic things about modding... troubleshooting. If Eloraam or FC run across a problem it is normally fixed quite fast and both provide this help to other modders. This is actually something that makes them really helpful. If you are a modder and have a question just visit them in IRC. This is more true for Eloraam than FC, and of course their are other modders doing the same. I actually like to name Player since he seems to help out quite a lot. I agree that the ability in coding not necessarily influences the mod. Since originality is something that makes a mod really good, the experience will come over time, but it's a lot harder to get more creative.

Although this not necessarily tags them as being super-good-beings I lack the proof of them doing any harm. They are quilty of wanting to keep control over their mod, but I'm questioning that this is necessarily bad. Independend on how they manage their own mod they are both helpful if you approach them in a polite way.

Quote from Bluehorazon

every mod created is individual intellectual property owned by the person or the group of persons creating it.

So to sum it up:

The basic rule is that everyone is the king of his own work.

Well, I admit that "intellectual property" became today a nightmare version crap for cover large censorship and a lot of anti-cultural and anti-progress measures, just to protect "intellectual" property. So is any patent for each mod here in open internet? I dont think so. But this is not the real issue. The main issue is in next sum up. King of his own work. Is any cross-modding modifying original mods? Is any of these cross any way worst or better as legal aspect than mods in cause?
Why to consider mod1 and mod2 are more permissive to public and mod12-cross to be forbidden? That was the original issue. Well, I must admit, I prefer to see a software from one of original mod creators as cross-software, but the way of deny a crossing mod (because interfere with future ideas) is way to much for my taste. So, where is the king, and of how many mods is he?