[GregTech-6][1.7.10] Moved to Website

  • I have never seen one, even when exploring in creative mode. Are you sure? or was this added after .33? I can do a quick scan and see but I think something's wrong.


    Also, that still doesn't address the fact that steel is just absolutely not made with graphite it's made with coal, specifically anthracite (not lignite), refined to coke, which is my main complaint.


    I'm going to go lay down, my head hurts badly now.

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    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • that is unless u have RC installed, u can just bypass the GT veins and look fer abyssal geodes and get a diamond in little time with a lvl 2 pick. so not as hard as you seem to think it needs to be.
    then u have the other blast furnaces that can be made, so easy to bypass either way. unless your running a GT only mod pack, and I dont know anyone who does that. Im my opinion the GT way should be hard, but not unrealistically so, that it almost forces us hardcore GT players to try going around its steps. and diamonds/graphite for steel is that sorta step id work around.

  • I should mention again that the Steel from Graphite thing is a temporary solution in order to both keep balance and a slight bit of realism, or do you want me to use anything else what isn't abundant as fuck and contains Carbon?

  • I think the reason its so bothersome that if regular coal is too common, you could have required a rarer metallurgical grade coal to be made into coke instead of choosing graphite



    And while you are right using graphite is technically feasible to make steel, the concept of it makes people like engineers cringe as no one in the real world would consider doing so for economic reasons

  • Well, the idea was to use calcite for flux (2-3 times). That's not as rare as graphite/diamonds but is also entirely realistic (along with coal for the carbon!). Optionally other fluxes (limestone, etc. but those aren't part of GT, by default, are they?)
    Calcite (semi-rare), coal (tons of it), iron ore (medium to huge amounts needed depending on the ore. IE, limonites suck ass, hematite is almost pure iron, magnetite is mostly iron, etc.)
    You need a ton of coal to get iron AT ALL
    And probably flux depending on your iron source
    And before iron can become steel you need a ton of coal again, AND flux, and of course a suitable crucible and not melt the thing in the process, meaning rather small batches. Like my math suggests you can't even make more than 9 steel at a time in a full crucible anyway (due to the space required by all the coal and flux).
    It's not that it relies on 1 very rare thing for balance, that's cheap and unrealistic. Instead it relies on a LOT of very common thing, a medium amount of semi-rare thing, and a LOT of common thing, and a LOT of time with the crucible, and many steps.
    Like, again...
    You go mining and find banded iron. Lovely. Now you have an iron source.
    It requires flux, so you gotta go digging for lazurite, and find calcite. there. Now coal. Only coal will do!
    So, you gotta find coal. Not too hard to time consuming, but you're gonna need a lot of it.
    Crucible Round 1-9: You need 6 tiny piles of calcite, 6 tiny piles of coal dust, and 9 banded iron dust. (Plus fuel and appropriate crucible.)
    You get: 1 iron. ONE. IRON. That's only gonna be 1 future steel, from 9 banded iron. And we're a long ways off yet.
    And because it takes so much (10 1/3) you can only make 1 freaking ingot per round in the crucible. Think about that.
    There's your difficulty. Moving on..
    After you've done this NINE TIMES, you have 9 iron.
    Now you need more coal and flux.
    Crucible Round 10-11: You need 9 iron, 1 coal, and 1 flux/calcite powder. (Plus fuel and crucible, again.)
    You get: 9 Pig Iron/Wrought Iron.
    Now, do the above TWICE. You have 18 pig iron.
    Get more coal and flux.
    Crucible Round 12: You need 1 coal, 3 flux, and 10 pig iron.
    You now have 10 steel.
    Total cost:
    12 crucible smelting rounds. TWELVE. That's what, five minutes each? 60 minutes? An hour of your life minimum!
    81 banded iron, 9 coal, 11 calcite, and i'm counting roughly 120 charcoal equivalent in fuel, using an invar burning box..
    For 10 steel.


    Tell me that's overpowered and i'll call you crazy.
    It's not as bad with other sources, but unless it's hematite or magnetite, it's not going to be much less painful than that, and that's fucking drastic. I didn't formulate this change to make iron easy at all! The hardest part of making steel, is making iron. That IS the obstacle to overcome. Not hunting nonsensical diamonds.
    (And you kind of need to make a bit of stuff out of iron to even start with mining much of it anyway, unless you wanna burn through bronze like candles at a nunnery.)






    As for right now now:


    I'll report back later after I gen a new world and see what's up with the graphite because I really can't find any graphite on the sever. But ti was generated in .33 so if the small graphite ore was added after .33 then that explains why.

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • I think the reason its so bothersome that if regular coal is too common, you could have required a rarer metallurgical grade coal to be made into coke instead of choosing graphite



    And while you are right using graphite is technically feasible to make steel, the concept of it makes people like engineers cringe as no one in the real world would consider doing so for economic reasons

    ^ This



    And that raises a point...
    HOW ABOUT A COMPROMISE!? Best of both worth!


    We have coal.. lignite...
    But what kind of coal? Coal comes in lignite, bituminous, and anthracite. ANTHRACITE is the one that is ideal for steelmaking (once made into coke). So.. here's an idea..
    Make a new coal vein that contains some Anthracite (and the usual coal and lignite), OR: Make anthracite a byproduct of processing/washing normal coal (not lignite).
    If that's not hard enough, require it to be converted into anthracite coke, perhaps by heating it into a crucible (rather than setting it on fire) at a reduced ratio (it loses some mass when the more bituminous portions are cooked off). Anthracite coke is basically flammable carbon at this stage.
    Make it so that only this special high-purity carbon-based anthracite coke can be used for STEEL, but you can use regular coal for iron.


    That's realistic and accomplishes what I want, while also being easy to make however rare you need it to be (and not tying it to something bizzarre like diamonds/graphite)



    ...I think I like this idea most. Ditch steel-coal for anthracite-coke.
    Coal-Iron and Anthracite-Steel.
    mmm. Delicious.




    EDIT: I'm gennerating a new world and seeing WTF with graphite. 'Cuz it really doesn't seem to be on my server. May need to just reset the world..

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • Sorry but vanilla Coal is already Anthracite Coal.


    Also Graphite generates exactly like small Diamond Ore AND it is Gray meaning if you have vanilla Stone, you may not see it that well.

  • Why not have to refine coal into coke to balance it more and be realistic. Of course along with axlegear's idea which I agree with. Although magnetite has more iron in it than Hematite as it has more iron rich minerals, but is more difficult to refine and requires many steps. The reason hematite is more feasible is that it is much more abundant and concentrated and is easier to refine.
    Also Anthracite is very rare and is found rather deep.

  • What's the solution? I think I need to know this to understand.





    Also, confirmed graphite with a new world
    great, gotta reset me 2-week-or-so old world. XD Oh well. That's why it's alpha server


    BLAH BLAH bear found a graphite ore in the server. I just can't find shit. XD




    Well, this day is starting to get a lot better. I am not only 60% afraid and neurotic rather tan 90%.

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

  • I KNOW BUT I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU WANT TO DO TO FIX IT


    LIKE IS THERE A COKE MACHINE?



    Because I prefer pepsi.



    Also: POST 666. THE DEVIL!

    Quote

    Quoted from "zorn":
    People can't handle losing. Lots of new games are like this. My son's Lego games? You die and respawn on the spot, just lose a bit of money. It's made so that anyone can win, even the worst players. Like TE, or EU. They say that IC2 is 'keeping them from moving on' but can never say what that is. In reality they just failed, blew up a bunch of stuff, and their fragile egos couldn't take it so they gravitate towards mods designed to guarantee that you succeed.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by axlegear ().

  • I have a not so realistic idea:


    Crafting:
    2 coal + 1 charcoal = 1 crude coke lump


    Furnace:
    crude coke lump-> 1 coke


    Crucible:
    N Coke + N Iron Ore (N is based on the type of ore used) = N Pig Iron (1200K)
    8N Charcoal + N Iron Ore = N Pig Iron (1200K)


    1 Pig Iron + 8 charcoal (or 1 coke) = 1 Elemental Iron (1500K) -> Vanilla MC iron


    1 Elemental Iron + 1 coke = 1 Wrought Iron (1800K)
    1 Wrought Iron + 4 coke (or 1/2 graphite) = 1 Steel. (2000K)


    The charcoal in the production chain is to allow a coal-free production of elemental iron.

  • +1. If this is implemented I'll start mining iron again just to do this process o/

    Quote

    Java script, which happens to be the language in which minecraft is coded

  • I can't do anything about the Real World being terrible at Game Balance.


    Best Greg quote in a while imo. :D


    But seriously this is a real problem. I think things like GT or Reika's mods kind of have to walk a line to keep the appeal of being technical and realistic while also being an actual balanced game. Also the sweet spot between gameyness and realism varies between person to person. But y'all probably already know that stuff.

  • I think the main point from a realistic perspective is to add a reduction step to the production of iron. If you want realism you also have to process your carbon source before using it with the main point being to increase the carbon content and decrease the volatile content of said coke or charcoal. I think it would be really cool to have two low tech multistructures for the production of iron. Something like a multiblock structure for processing coal or charcoal into coke (or some other carbon source), with coal being more efficient due to its lower volatiles content (ie it has a higher fixed carbon content to begin with). This could be made from some kind of heat ressistant bricks kind of like the railcraft coke oven. Then you build a low tech blast furnace also out of heat ressistant bricks. It would be the most realistic to make this a batch process. Maybe you could have a variable size on this multiblock to enable larger batches to be started. You start the batch by filling it with coke (from the previous multiblock) and crushed iron ore. Once its full it starts processing and after lets say 5 minutes you can pour out molten raw iron from the bottom. This could be made in several tiers with higher tiers requiring less coke to ore, higher production speed and more raw iron from the same amount of iron ore. Since we don't really have a concept of impurities such as silica in the raw ore i think it would be easier to just skip the requirement for a fluxing agent such as limestone. Althought this could easily be added to the batch process of the iron blast furnace. Then you could also add slag as a byproduct when emptying the blast furnace.


    Then to make steel you require oxygen and a higher tier of blast furnace (or another multiblock structure) that serves the purpose of reducing the carbon content of the raw iron through direct oxidation by mixing molten raw iron and oxygen/air. The difficulty in this step would be making the steel production multiblock strcture rather than the required input into the process. The difficulty in making steel should be a technological one rather than it being hard to find the reagents as once you have the technology it would make sense to make all iron into steel since it is just plain better as a material.


    So in essence:
    Make a coke oven multiblock that produces coke from different carbon sources such as coal or charcoal. With charcoal producing less coke than coal due to its higher volatiles content (ie make coal a more efficient reducing agent) (balance the carbon sources in this multistructure)
    Make a low tech blast furnace to produce raw iron ore from coke and crushed iron ore. If you make it a batch system it would only require time instead of excessive amounts of babysitting and materials so that iron is still somewhat easy to make in decent quantities. Think a bronze blast furnace that produces raw iron instead of steel in large batches
    Use the regular bronze blast furnaces to produce steel by pumping oxygen through molten raw iron while heating it with an outside source). Low tech (bronze) could be through burning coal charcoal and high tech would be electricity with the latter being substantially faster. The process should be able to run on both air and oxygen, with the later being much faster. You would also require a new air/oxygen inlet to the blast furnace. This could be made more efficient by pouring the already molten raw iron from the ore smelting directly into the bronze blast furnace so that it does not require to be melted again. this would reducing the amount of coal/electricity and time you need to create steel .


    I think this would make for a really interesting automation challange in the early game :)

    A question that sometimes drives me hazy; am i or are the other crazy

  • Greg small question about the fix from .35
    "[FIXED] The Collection Bounding Box of the Smelting Crucible. This means you need to aim better to hit it, also Molds aren't scrapped as often, when they are harvested while being right next to a Crucible."
    Can it be that the Collection Bounding change can cause so problems in another Mods that use the same Mechanic?

  • I'm loling so hard atm at the notion of extracting carbon from diamonds to make steel. Gregtech Intergalactical: We vapourize diamonds in the bronze age!


    Just teasing really, I'm glad its going to be temporary. BTW greg, from a streamlined game design perspective, axle's ideas are very nicely done and fit in really well with the GT Way Of Doing Stuff.


    Certainly better than "Win by getting lame resource (wither skulls/nether stars/diamonds/whatever)" anyway :)