[GregTech-6][1.7.10] Moved to Website

  • Yes, creosote is problematic. If lignite coal coke gives more creosote than regular coal, then it will more profitable to burn creosote (in railcraft boiler) than lignite coal itself. Railcraft's config has "Fuel Per Steam Multiplier", which can be used to nerf boilers, but that is very blunt.


    Check railcraft boiler calculator. It's outdated, but still quite correct. I tested using Railcraft_1.7.10-9.12.2.0.jar


    But what happens if creosote bucket is equal to 3 charcoal?


    Wood log: 20k HU.
    Charcoal from it: 40k HU.
    Charcoal + 0.25 creosote from it: 40k HU + 0.25 * 120k HU = 70k HU. (75% increase)
    Coal: 40k HU.
    Coal coke: 80k HU.
    Coal coke + 0.5 creosote: 80k HU + 0.5 * 120k HU = 140k HU (also 75% increase)
    Lignite: 10k HU
    Lignite coke: 20k HU
    Speculation:
    Lignite coke + 1 creosote: 140k HU (700% increase... time to go digging$$$)


    Ethanol needs a buff or biogas needs a nerf. I recently tried to calculate how much HU can I get from the same amount of biomass. Biogas wins by very approximately 10 times.

  • Ethanol:
    Gregtrech recipe in distillery: 40L biomass into 12L ethanol using 384 HU. From 1 bucket of biomass: 300L ethanol using 9600 HU. If burned, this outputs 300 * 144 = 43200 HU. Gain is 43200 - 9600 = 33600 HU from 1 bucket of biomass.


    Biogas:
    IC2 fermenter can produce 20 buckets of biogas from 1 bucket of biomass. If powered by liquid heat generator using biogas, 5/8 of produced biogas is used up to produce it... So 3/8 efficiency. So effectively it's 20 * 3 / 8 = 7.5 buckets of biogas from 1 bucket of biomass. When burned, 1L of biogas is worth 76.8 HU. So, this way 1 bucket of biomass can be converted to 7500 * 76.8 = 576 000 HU.


    It's not 10 times difference, it's more than 17.

  • Much time ago I calculated that a single pair of fermenter and liquid heat generator produces 10.8 EU/t (if burned at semifluid or 100% efficiency diesel generator). To get much energy from that, a player would have to spam many such pairs, what is boring and what I do not do. I even recently created a rule for myself "do not craft liquid heat generators". That is to explore other ways of power production. (1 of my worlds has 4 such machines, another - 0). Combined with "no plutonium from worldgen, just nuclear reactors" rule, power generation is non-trivial again. And I don't yet have a working nuclear reactor because of that "centrifuge refined uranium to get uranium-235" recipe (I don't complain - that's a good goal). Previously I had, but at one point I activated "no free plutonium" rule, NEI-converted all my uranium-235, plutonium and ready nuclear fuel to uraninite (similar volume).


    Back to creosote. If I could, I would buff creosote bucket to be worth 3 charcoal, reduce creosote from wood 2.5 times and disable railcraft's coke oven. Disabling railcraft's coke oven is easy with minetweaker, editing gregtech fuel values and recipes... I didn't find that in a config. Intented result from these changes: gregtech coke oven is a high priority machine, lignite mining and even ore-processing is profitable, wood farm is only slightly buffed.

  • Ethanol:
    Gregtrech recipe in distillery: 40L biomass into 12L ethanol using 384 HU. From 1 bucket of biomass: 300L ethanol using 9600 HU. If burned, this outputs 300 * 144 = 43200 HU. Gain is 43200 - 9600 = 33600 HU from 1 bucket of biomass.


    Biogas:
    IC2 fermenter can produce 20 buckets of biogas from 1 bucket of biomass. If powered by liquid heat generator using biogas, 5/8 of produced biogas is used up to produce it... So 3/8 efficiency. So effectively it's 20 * 3 / 8 = 7.5 buckets of biogas from 1 bucket of biomass. When burned, 1L of biogas is worth 76.8 HU. So, this way 1 bucket of biomass can be converted to 7500 * 76.8 = 576 000 HU.


    It's not 10 times difference, it's more than 17.

    Wow, alone the x20 Modifier throws off the balance. IC2 Biogas is exactly 50% as Efficient per Liter as Ethanol, meaning you need 2 Biogas to get the same Energy as 1 Ethanol.


    But you need 10 Biomass to get 3 Ethanol, while you get 200 Biogas from the same amount, (20*10) / (3*2) = 33.333x difference in terms of Biomass/Fuel, what is way too much if you ask me.


    The Fermenter is only used for the Biomass -> Biogas Stuff, right? Or did I miss a Recipe? Because I'm going to disable that thing and add my own Fermenter Recipe for Biomass -> Methane, which will be 40->24.


    Methane and IC2 Biogas have identical Fuel Values and are exchangeable in the Generifier.

    Back to creosote. If I could, I would buff creosote bucket to be worth 3 charcoal, reduce creosote from wood 2.5 times and disable railcraft's coke oven. Disabling railcraft's coke oven is easy with minetweaker, editing gregtech fuel values and recipes... I didn't find that in a config. Intented result from these changes: gregtech coke oven is a high priority machine, lignite mining and even ore-processing is profitable, wood farm is only slightly buffed.

    I can't just decrease the Creosote Output, because Creosote is used in making a lot of things aside from Power Generation.

  • Please do tackle fuels next. There are big parts of the energy generation sector that are hidden behind the iron curtain of self-restraint at the minute.
    I would love to use ethanol/methane/biogas etc., but don't trust the balance values of the out-of-GregTech machines. It would also be awesome to
    bring oil->fuel refining into the GregTech economy and away from Redstone Flux. Until recently I've been refining fuel offshore and only importing the
    fuel into my base so that I don't have to sully it with kinesis pipes and the like.


    One thing I'd like to be able to do is prepare the ground for synfuel to supplement, and eventually replace, oil as my main source of on-demand energy.
    I picture a future base in which solar, nuclear and other renewables/inexhaustibles are used to make some kind of synthetic fuel (ethanol?), which is
    treated primarily as a storage medium rather than an energy source, and then this is burned on-demand, e.g. when my power draw exceeds my reactor
    output.


    On the issue of energy/fuel: do people feel that the recent hardening of the IC generator recipe makes the RTG an "honest" source of energy yet?
    In the past I have used it for a number of niche applications, such as provided uninterruptible power to my Nuclear Control remote thermometers,
    and underground cases where you might otherwise have used a solar panel. They were also good to take on long trips away from base to recharge
    drills/armour etc.


    Lastly, since the distillery uses blaze rods: there is a recipe for blaze rods cut from long rods, but when I last tried it I could only cast blaze plates
    and not the rods. Is this to force players to visit the nether? Or is this an accident?


    Quote

    I can't just decrease the Creosote Output, because Creosote is used in making a lot of things aside from Power Generation.


    I agree - power generation is very much a secondary side-effect of creosote's main use.

  • I don't know any other uses for fermenter that making biogas from biomass using heat.


    I'm not sure if you understood what I wrote before, but to make 8 units of biogas you need to burn 5 units of biogas in a fermenter - liquid heat generator pair. Heh, biogas takes up volume as if it was gas, but burns as if it was liquified (it is gas).


    I forgot to mention one thing where fermenter is also useful: liquid nuclear reactor. Liquid nuclear reactor heats up coolant. Hot coolant goes to liquid heat exchanger, cools down and heats fermenter, which outputs biogas. Lava behaves the same (or very similar) as hot coolant, but more energy can be gained from lava by just putting it into geothermal generator. "Bio-nuclear-reactor" is a fun thing to set up, and I would miss that :P


    Also, lignite... It's pointless to crush or sift it using machines - either too expensive recipes, or too little gain. Sifting: 16k KU. That's at best 32k HU, if it's possible with steam machines. With electric machines it's 64k HU at best. And output after coke oven: 1.8 lignite coal coke (36k HU) and 0.036111 coal dust (1444.444 HU) and 1.8 buckets (speculation) creosote (currently 14400 HU or $$$ in railcraft boiler) - the only hope for lignite coal :)

  • Heh, I use creosote for many things, that is, many torches.


    Ok, bugs and mostly bugs:


    Too expensive recipe for small sticks in buzzsaw machine - almost 10k RU.
    Sound system related crash when quickly crafting many things using hammer and possibly other loud tools. Not always, but made me very careful when crafting pipes.
    Flint and tinder sound related crash when it has minimal durability and used on burning box.
    I don't have crash logs (different computer), but that's mostly concurrent modification exceptions.
    Ability to disable tool sounds in config would help.

  • Please do tackle fuels next. There are big parts of the energy generation sector that are hidden behind the iron curtain of self-restraint at the minute.
    I would love to use ethanol/methane/biogas etc., but don't trust the balance values of the out-of-GregTech machines. It would also be awesome to
    bring oil->fuel refining into the GregTech economy and away from Redstone Flux. Until recently I've been refining fuel offshore and only importing the
    fuel into my base so that I don't have to sully it with kinesis pipes and the like.

    Ethanol can already be produced with GT Machines. I made sure that the GregTech Fuel burning values are all above or equal to the highest Burn Value of the respective Fuel, and balanced it according to that.

    Lastly, since the distillery uses blaze rods: there is a recipe for blaze rods cut from long rods, but when I last tried it I could only cast blaze plates
    and not the rods. Is this to force players to visit the nether? Or is this an accident?

    Where do you get the Blaze Powder from to cast the Rods? Also casting Blaze Rods costs more than regular Rods, that is a special Case to prevent exploits.

    I don't know any other uses for fermenter that making biogas from biomass using heat.


    I'm not sure if you understood what I wrote before, but to make 8 units of biogas you need to burn 5 units of biogas in a fermenter - liquid heat generator pair. Heh, biogas takes up volume as if it was gas, but burns as if it was liquified (it is gas).

    I calculated with the actual Fuel Values, nothing to do with production costs. I do know that you showed the overall balance, which was according to you, over 17 times as much for turning biomass into biogas, than for turning biomass into ethanol. I only said that there is also a over 33 times difference in actual output per biomass aswell, and that only the production costs decrease the 33x to 17x.


    My way will in the end make Methane (aka Biogas) and Ethanol equal regarding output, so that this difference won't exist anymore.

    I forgot to mention one thing where fermenter is also useful: liquid nuclear reactor. Liquid nuclear reactor heats up coolant. Hot coolant goes to liquid heat exchanger, cools down and heats fermenter, which outputs biogas. Lava behaves the same (or very similar) as hot coolant, but more energy can be gained from lava by just putting it into geothermal generator. "Bio-nuclear-reactor" is a fun thing to set up, and I would miss that :P

    Someday I will add my own Heat Exchanger, once it is there you can use that one. :P

    Also, lignite... It's pointless to crush or sift it using machines - either too expensive recipes, or too little gain. Sifting: 16k KU. That's at best 32k HU, if it's possible with steam machines. With electric machines it's 64k HU at best. And output after coke oven: 1.8 lignite coal coke (36k HU) and 0.036111 coal dust (1444.444 HU) and 1.8 buckets (speculation) creosote (currently 14400 HU or $$$ in railcraft boiler) - the only hope for lignite coal :)

    I know that sifting and re-crushing it are pointless for Fuel. Don't think that I would make those ones efficient, because it is a dumb Idea to do so in the first place. We have a Coke Oven for making Lignite and Coal into Fuel. The Processing from Machines is there for things like Crafting, and explicitely NOT for any usage as Fuel.


    Also you get 750L Creosote for Lignite, not a whole Bucket.


    Edit: And yes I made Creosote Torch Recipes for GT aswell.


    How does the Sound System Crash? Like seriously, I made sure that there isn't more than one sound per 5 ticks or so.

  • Where do you get the Blaze Powder from to cast the Rods? Also casting Blaze Rods costs more than regular Rods, that is a special Case to prevent exploits.

    I guess, from deserts when Thaumcraft is installed. If that's the case, easy way to get blaze rods is to break infernal furnace. The blaze will escape. Sometimes more deadly than usual ;)

    I calculated with the actual Fuel Values, nothing to do with production costs. I do know that you showed the overall balance, which was according to you, over 17 times as much for turning biomass into biogas, than for turning biomass into ethanol. I only said that there is also a over 33 times difference in actual output per biomass aswell, and that only the production costs decrease the 33x to 17x.


    My way will in the end make Methane (aka Biogas) and Ethanol equal regarding output, so that this difference won't exist anymore.


    Someday I will add my own Heat Exchanger, once it is there you can use that one. :P

    Ok, I will wait :)

    I know that sifting and re-crushing it are pointless for Fuel. Don't think that I would make those ones efficient, because it is a dumb Idea to do so in the first place. We have a Coke Oven for making Lignite and Coal into Fuel. The Processing from Machines is there for things like Crafting, and explicitely NOT for any usage as Fuel.

    I was talking about sifting sand lignite ore and crushing (then sluicing) stone lignite ore. Goal: convert lignite ore blocks to burnable fuel. Maybe coke oven could accept lignite coal ore blocks (problem: what to do with stone, sand, basalt, granite or whatever is that block's parent material).

    How does the Sound System Crash? Like seriously, I made sure that there isn't more than one sound per 5 ticks or so.

    Maybe sound is longer than 5 ticks. I don't know. Also, when shift click mass crafting things when using advanced crafting table, I get a sound of many villagers (many sounds almost at once... maybe they are spaced by 5 tick intervals).

  • Quote

    Where do you get the Blaze Powder from to cast the Rods? Also casting Blaze Rods costs more than regular Rods, that is a special Case to prevent exploits.


    You get blaze powder from either Cinderpearl in the Overworld (Thaumcraft) or from Magma Cream (which still requires a trip to the Nether, but avoids the need to search
    endlessly for a Nether Fortress).


    Also I think your anti-exploit special recipe needs some tweaking. After you said it was a special case I went back, crafted a short rod tungsten mold specially for the purpose
    and then tried casting some rods from a full crucible. It took 16 blaze powder to fill the crucible, from which I could perform 2 casts, each yielding 16 blaze rods for a total
    of 32. If I were minded to exploit this I could craft that into 64 blaze powder and repeat endlessly to spam blaze rods - even using the blaze rods themselves to fuel the burning
    box that heated the crucible...

  • Yup, got the villager sound too. And I also got some crashes while using my axe on very big spruce trees (the 4 saplings one). Logs indicated a sound error too.

  • Odd crucible smelting values: according to NEI, an Ilmenite dust smelts to a titanium chunk, but a refined Ilmenite ore smelts to 2 nuggets, less metal for more of the same source material. Is this correct?


    (What actually happens when the stuff is in the crucible I'm not sure.)

  • Civilised world won't end, if so called elites finally change their approach. Otherwise more douches everywhere, really...I was seeing more that we lose slowly democracy, because some people rather riot and burn cars than accept the vote.(yes we read patreon)


    Can confirm villager sounds, too. Also it lags for us when those sounds do play on big crafting.

  • Quote

    Civilised world won't end, if so called elites finally change their approach. Otherwise more douches everywhere, really...I was seeing more that we lose slowly democracy, because some people rather riot and burn cars than accept the vote.(yes we read patreon)


    There's no need to try and turn a South Park reference into a political debate, per se. Nor to pretend that democracy means that homophobia, xenophobia or sexism, per se, are acceptable just because they're (apparently) really popular in America. Per se.