Suggestion: Chemical Engineering

  • First off, great mod. I enjoy it a lot.


    Did a search for "chemical" and checked the already suggested suggestions thread, and turned up nothing. So apologies if it is in planning, or has been suggested and I missed it.
    A Google search for "minecraft chemical mod" and "minecraft chemistry mod" turned up MineChem as the most relevant mod. Appeared to have a full periodic table but no real purpose other than possibly serving as a base for other mods.


    Also, this is a bit more of a general category suggestion (and in fact more of a 'is-this-planned?' question than anything else), so no specific recipies or such mentioned.


    Name:
    Chemical Engineering and Chemical Process Plants


    Describtion:
    I believe an untapped avenue for Industrial Craft is that of chemical reactions and chemical engineering. In most modern process plants (even large furnaces) large chemical process sections exist. These are typically geared towards concentrating ores (sorting the desired from the unwanted), before other processes such as electrical smelting (gold, iron, etc.) or electroplating (copper).


    Your typical chemical reaction (if oversimplified) has some standard parameters that IC² can use to simulate a simplified (and more generic) chemical process with:


    1. Heat in reaction (in degrees Centigrade), changing based on reaction (Exothermic [heat-making] or Endothermic [heat-eating]). Some reaction may require player to remove heat (cooling fans, coolers, etc.) or add heat (Heaters, etc.), in essence keeping it within a specific margin.


    2. pH level (Again, pH levels are typically important for both getting a reaction to work, and nasty side effects at both extremes.)


    3. Concentrations (A simple use for this would be to indicate how much slurry (solid-in-liquids, or gunk) you have).


    4. Efficiency (Not directly manipulated. Essentially reports back how well you are maintaining the reaction).


    Recipe:
    N/A. Would personally like to see more 'build-it' recipes (like railcraft choke furnace) for chemical tanks/reactors/mixers/etc.



    Starting point:
    Since this would be a rather new avenue, I would suggest to first start with a simple chemical reactor (I.e. big tank for stuff to happen in). Adding sufficient water to the tank, along with reagents (chemicals that fizzle and make stuff happen), along with sand or dirt or cobblestone (i.e. common blocks), and getting the heat, pH and concentration right, it starts leeching some useful ores from the reaction, along with producing waste (useless except perhaps for recycling).


    As a poor 'no-thinking' example: The reactor can leach copper from sand when setup for it, and kept at pH (3.1 to 4.1, best 3.5), and Heat (140°C to 240°C, best 155°C).
    Each sand block added ups the concentration by 0.1%.
    Each copper ore leached out drops concentration by 4% (one copper ore per 40 sand or less if closer to optimum reaction values), drops heat by 10°C, increases pH by 0.1, and produces twenty waste.
    Some other items can lower or raise pH (like clay lowering pH or... or... not sure really).
    EU can be converted into heat added (heaters) or heat removed (coolers).
    Reactor chamber may require way to monitor Heat/pH/Concentration and output signals at user defined levels (Hi level and Lo level for each of the three).


    Essentially the same as heap leach processes in real life. I'd keep recovered ores ratio low, as not to discourage mining.
    (Starting point idea probably overlaps in function with EE, but that is another mod and does not require maintaining some form of reaction to obtain results).

    People just can't stay away from me... but that is because I'm so fat I have my own gravitational field.


    It's the flying cutlery that stresses me out.

  • +1


    And +1 for the future yeast tanks, that with additives can make "microfood" (all vanilla foods). Asimov style.

  • So it looks like special block: Reactor (chemical). It shows a slot to insert materials, slot for output and some scales.
    1. Pressure (up to some limit)
    2. Temperature (up/down to some limit based on biome)
    3. Volume of each material inserted (up so some total limit)
    4. pH
    5. ...
    Pressure can be manipulated by opening hole to release steam.
    Heater/cooler can be EU based (battery slot + EU scale + thermostat controls) or item based (slot for ice/water/lava). Also some HEAT exchange possible between nearby Reactors (including Nuclears).
    Volume increased by adding something and decreased by removing something. Also pH.


    You can add anything into reactor and release any material in six directions.
    If released into air, gas disappears, liquid flows away, solid dropped as items.
    If released into nearby Reactor, added to other Reactor.


    Recipes would be hardest. You need to describe how each material reacts with each in each condition. For example Iron with Coal in right temperature and proportions produce Steel with some rate. You need quite skilled Chemist to describe it all with a slightest sign of realism.


    Good luck!



  • That sounds like a endgame time eater +1



    And change steel with iron dust.

  • +1


    While very complicated, also VERY well-thought out, and it's rife with innumerable applications. Finally, I'd have a use for all that dirt aside from tossing it into my EE2/3 Antimatter Core.


    *ducks in anticipation of incoming fire for using EE*


    Also, completely random and off-topic, but is that a Corgi as your avatar?

  • +1, it is surely complicated, but ALL elements on periodic table DOES have industrial uses, it would be nice if we could manipulate them with some kind of futuristic "atomical tech" which would require insane amounts of energy (Tier 4?)

  • "Sebra" wrote:

    Recipes would be hardest. You need to describe how each material reacts with each in each condition. For example Iron with Coal in right temperature and proportions produce Steel with some rate. You need quite skilled Chemist to describe it all with a slightest sign of realism.


    Yes, to some degree. You don't have to describe each material with every other material, in each condition, just how each material usable (I.e. limit the subset) affects the three (or four) parameters [pH, Heat, Concentration, (and Pressure)]. Reactions would likely be defined seperately.
    Well, at least that is how I would do it for the sake of simplicity. Realism doesn't always equal fun.


    I.e. If I was to code it, I would define a reaction (similar to a recipe).
    A reaction would state:

    • What its reaction ranges are (Ex. Heat: 100 , 200; pH: 6, 8; Concentration: 50, 80) (Thinking about it I'd probably just define a range, and make the average of the two numbers, i.e. the centre, the optimal value)
    • What it causes at optimal and worst (Ex. Concentration: -3, -4; Heat: -10, -10; pH: 0.1, 0.1) and similarly what it produces (Ex. Copper: 1; Waste: 20)
    • How long the reaction takes (i.e. how many ticks before it again applies it cause, and produces something, if possible). (Ex. TimeTicks:100)
    • What reagents it accepts. (Ex. Sand) (For the sake of simplicity, I would not define the effect of a reagent per reaction, but let a reagent always have the same effect.)
    • Other information such as reaction ID, name, description, whatnot.


    I would then define a reagent (Which describes a block or item, so that the blocks or items themselves do not need editing).
    An reagent would define:

    • The Item/Block ID. (Ex. Block.sand)
    • Effect when added to a reaction (Ex. Concentration: 0.1; Heat: 0; pH: 0)


    A block (single block machine)/blockgroup (choke furnace equivalent) would simply define what reactions it can run. (Ex. for chemical reactor: Reaction.SandToCopper; Reaction.DirtToTin; Reaction.CobbleToGold;)
    And how much water it initially takes to fill up. (Maybe water should also be a variable in all reactions, so that you can consume it over time?)


    You could then even define something like a...
    Reactor.BakingLine:
    Reactions { Reaction.DoughToBread; Reaction.MakeCharcoal }


    Reaction.DoughToBread:
    Ranges { Heat: 280, 320; pH: 7, 7; Concentration: 90, 100 }
    Cause { Concentration: -8, -10; Heat: -10, -10; pH: 0, 0 }
    Produces { Bread: 1}
    Time { Ticks: 40 }
    Accepts { Reagent.Dough }


    Reaction.MakeCharcoal:
    Ranges { Heat: 321, 999; pH: 0, 14; Concentration: 40, 100 }
    Cause { Concentration: -40, -40; Heat: -20, -20; pH: 0, 0 }
    Produces { Charcoal: 1}
    Time { Ticks: 40 }
    Accepts { Reagent.Dough; Reagent.Log }


    Reagent.Dough:
    ID { Item.Dough }
    Effects { Concentration: 20; Heat: 0; pH: 0 }


    Where Item.Dough would be made from things like wheat and water, etc.


    Haven't yet thought about how to do heater/coolers (EU to Heat+ or Heat-) or heat exchangers (Balances heat between two reactors), etc. (Nice idea though with Nuclear Reactor. Using a nuclear reactor to provide heat for chemical reactions is even being considered in real life, with the new research into liquid salt thorium reactors).


    Disclaimer: I've only recently gotten Minecraft, and only just started looking at Java and minecraft modding, so examples above might be wrong approach entirely.


    [OT]

    "Warlord Mike" wrote:

    Also, completely random and off-topic, but is that a Corgi as your avatar?


    Toypom actually. He is hyperactive and heck-of-a-fun dog. Also naughty, but that is part of his charm.
    Also not very well house broken. But you can't stay mad at him.
    [/OT]

    People just can't stay away from me... but that is because I'm so fat I have my own gravitational field.


    It's the flying cutlery that stresses me out.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by UberWaffe: Change in example reaction. Added disclaimer. Edit to fix edit. ().

  • Wow, this is really well thought out! I like the idea of a new endgame time killer. Agriculture didn't really do it for me besides wanting coffee beans. Then you can implement gasses without blocks, and we could see some really cool stuff. <.< Tritium sights for guns in industrium conflict *cough*

    Error 404: Signature not found!

  • Reading all of this a few times, I could swear that you're a chemical engineer yourself; this is a spectacularly well-thought out idea and an excellent end game time eater, it would give me an excuse to devote several episodes to it.


    ...Add-on, maybe? If not implemented into core IC2.

  • [OT]

    Reading all of this a few times, I could swear that you're a chemical engineer yourself;


    Close. Control System Engineer. So I'm just a pleb, not a genius. Chemistry and I don't actually get along all that well.
    [/OT]


    Mister_Omega wrote:

    ...Add-on, maybe? If not implemented into core IC2.


    I'm starting to look into MineCraft modding, and have taken a quick glance at the IC² API, so maybe given time I could try.
    Heading to Madagascar for a small project though, so probably will not even get to start until I am back in 3 weeks.



    Mister_Omega wrote:

    this is a spectacularly well-thought out idea


    Thanks. :thumbsup: But I think it is more a case of new avenue gives lots of possibilities, rather than well conceived idea. There is probably a better way of doing this.
    (For example, in the bakery example I use below, pH does not make the world of sense.)


    Mister_Omega wrote:

    and an excellent end game time eater


    Well, it need not be just endgame.
    A single reactor early on, running simple reactions that don't need much heating and pH management could be viable to boost mining income a bit.
    I.e. early game you probably can't automate, but you can manually watch over the reaction.


    I would probably define three tiers of reactors, scaling up in cost and reactions they can do. (I.e. cheap-and-limited to expensive-and-versatile).
    Tier 3 reactors doing complex reactions would probably need the outputs from tier two reactors as inputs, and similarly tier 2 from tier 1.
    For example, let us consider a three tier bakery.


    Tier 1 { Mill } -> Tier 2 { Dough Mixer } -> Tier 3 { Continuous Oven }
    (Note, the Mill, Mixer and Oven are all 'reactors')
    Wheat -> { Mill } -> Flour
    Flour + Water -> { Dough Mixer } -> Dough
    Dough -> { Continuous Oven } + Heat (Added to oven) -> Bread


    And from this example, I can already see it would make sense to have water as a parameter of all reactors/reactions.
    Water is, afterall, the most versatile and precious substance on the planet. It just isn't that expensive given its abundance.
    Heck, I mean even large industrial furnaces use water (Not inside, that makes it go 'Kaboom!'. But for cooling of the outer shell).

    People just can't stay away from me... but that is because I'm so fat I have my own gravitational field.


    It's the flying cutlery that stresses me out.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by UberWaffe: Some clarity added to bakery example. ().

  • Yay! Someone with under 20 posts made a HAYOish suggestion!! I love this idea, and I hope Alblaka does too. +9002 :)

    Ephesians 4:29
    Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up,
    as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.


  • Well, i'm gonna rate this on the HAYO-4W50M3 scale. It only applies to really awesome things and measures in GIBBL (Search it on the wiki). I'll give this a :Compressor:. (Over nine thousand GIBBL).


    EDIT: It was intentional that i just measured awesomeness hayoishness in pressure.

    Age: 16. Favourite school subject: Physics/Chemistry.


    The IC2 forums could really use a lot more of [REDACTED], [DATA EXPUNGED] and ████████.


    I'm in a so called "after-school". It's freaking fantastic and nowhere near as boring as normal school!

  • I'll give this a :Compressor:. (Over nine thousand GIBBL).

    Sorry, but the wiki is wrong. I really need a wiki account... The compressor only has 4000 Gibbl (not GIBBL, but Gibbl).
    On topic: Epic idea! Imagine mass-producing Weed-Ex, then suddenly something goes wrong and dissolves the tank, which causes poisonous acid to flood your base! Probably won't happen, but there should be conseuquences for doing something wrong, for example when you have something with a very low pH value or something way too hot. Or when you put sodium into your water tank!

    Sorry for my not perfect English, my native language is German. If I made any mistakes, please tell me.
    The "now" in "I don't now" is intended.
    I pretty much stopped playing Minecraft for Kerbal Space Program and you should do the same!

  • [OT]
    kevindude :


    [/OT]


    @Everyone:
    Thanks for the praise. I don't deserve it, but thanks anyway. :P


    If Alblaka does not want to or does not have the time, I'll give it my best (but still pitiful) attempt as an addon. :P
    I'm sure the core IC² mod team has more than enough vision to code into reality, to spend time on this tangent but I still hope they will. :D
    Trying to get mod forge and MCP set up before heading off on the trip, then perhaps I can use my time off to slap together some noob java code.



    Edit:
    I was thinking about 'catastrophic failures' earlier on. Would probably define some generic 'Kaboom' situations, such as poisonous gas, explosions, and such.
    A reaction could then be defined to call such an action, as opposed to just making something.
    Example:
    Reaction.Kaboomy:
    Ranges { Heat: 1000, 9999; pH: 0, 14; Concentration: 0, 100 } //I.e. any really high heat.
    Cause { Concentration: 0, 0; Heat: 0, 0; pH: 0, 0 }
    Produces Action { Reactor.Action.Kaboom }
    Time { Ticks: 1 }
    Accepts { } //Blank means accepts nothing. No need, just blowing up, who cares what is inside?

    People just can't stay away from me... but that is because I'm so fat I have my own gravitational field.


    It's the flying cutlery that stresses me out.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by UberWaffe: Response to new post. ().

  • I think that is the first time the Bible has been quoted on this forum, AND IM SO HAPPY SOMEONE DID!! YAY! (I should have though of that before)

    Ephesians 4:29
    Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up,
    as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.


  • I think that is the first time the Bible has been quoted on this forum, AND IM SO HAPPY SOMEONE DID!! YAY! (I should have though of that before)

    Why so happy, for Christsake. Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

    1. OMG CREEPER RUN AWAY!
    2. Go away, you creeper wierdo!
    3. What ever, I'll just go around.
    4. Hup, over their heads I go!
    5. Okay Mister living grenade, I'm going to knock you into those skeletons, and I'll follow through with a nano saber. Understood? FOR THE ALMIGHTLY DRAGON LORD!

  • I think that is the first time the Bible has been quoted on this forum, AND IM SO HAPPY SOMEONE DID!! YAY! (I should have though of that before)

    When I saw the Bible quoted, I was just :O Nice job with that one.

  • Since there seems to be interest in this, I figured starting to define some reactions/uses is perhaps a good idea.


    For now exact numbers (balance) and how (what reactors used, user actions required, etc.) are irrelevant, but rather we should just aim to brainstorm some reactions we want.
    Again, they need not be specifically 'chemical' in nature (Food and beverage reactions, or ore smelting reactions, or even WMD is all fine).


    So, for round 1 (Brainstorming) of the design process, I'll start off with some reactions.

    People just can't stay away from me... but that is because I'm so fat I have my own gravitational field.


    It's the flying cutlery that stresses me out.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by UberWaffe: Expanded description on bread reaction. ().

  • Maybe add yellow dye to the uranium process when you make the cake so it's yellowcake uranium?
    What about changing redstone from cobble to redstone from obsidian? You know, because you can make obsidian out of redstone and redstone is often found next to lava, which is hot obsidian...
    Also, what about these reactions:

    Sorry for my not perfect English, my native language is German. If I made any mistakes, please tell me.
    The "now" in "I don't now" is intended.
    I pretty much stopped playing Minecraft for Kerbal Space Program and you should do the same!

  • Maybe add yellow dye to the uranium process when you make the cake so it's yellowcake uranium?


    Clever, I didn't even think of that. :D


    I also like the other reactions. All brainstorming welcome...
    ...
    ...
    I'm going to regret that, aren't I? :P



    Acids and alkalines for changing pH will probably need to fall into 'Strong', and 'Weak' at least, for rough and finer control.
    I figured that one would use something renewable for the 'Weak' category at least, to allow for renewable reactions, or at least the means to control more accurately.


    To this end, I considered Milk and sugar.
    Sugar, it turns out after a Googles-of-revealing (<- See what I did there? It's so funny. Everyone should laugh... ... ... No? Not even a chuckle?) that sugar is neither acid or alkaline, so scrap that idea.
    Milk (the unpasturised kind that still has lactic acid producing bacteria) can be argued to be 'refineable' to a weak acid. Similarly, milk contains calcium, which is an Alkaline (I think, definitely when in Calcium Hydroxide form).
    So with a really cheap and small reactor could run a reaction that produces both calcium and lactic acid from milk.
    Voila, renewable weak acid and base. Maybe -0.1 and +0.1 pH. But numbers unimportant for now. :P
    (And yes, I understand that It is likely that in real life neither of those are 'weak', but in response I argue MinecraftCreeper )

    People just can't stay away from me... but that is because I'm so fat I have my own gravitational field.


    It's the flying cutlery that stresses me out.