Suggestion for implementation of a good energy-network : Voltage, Amperage, Wattage and Resistance.

1st Official Post
    • Official Post

    Voltage, Amperage, Wattage and Resistance (limit) should be implemented in my opinion.


    Wattage : EU/t - Total EU per tick transferred, this is what the EU-Reader shows.
    Voltage : "Packet size" (8 EU = ULV, 32 EU = LV , 128 EU = MV , 512 EU = HV , 2048 EU = EV ,[GT : 8192 EU = IV, 1M EU = EIV {Extremely Insane Voltage}] )
    Amperage : "Amount of Packets"
    Resistance : "% of EU lost over distance"
    Dissipation Limit : "Maximum % of EU that can be dissipated through resistance"


    Voltage is determined by the average of packet sizes that are flowing through a cable. (two LV packet and one HV packet would result in (512+[2*32])/3 = 192 "Volts")
    Amperage is determined by the Amount of packets that are flowing through a cable.


    Resistance is determined by cable type, but it is also affected by voltage and amperage.
    Resistance formula: (Base Resistance * Amperage* 100) / Voltage , in percentage.
    Dissipation Limit is determined by cable type, if exceeded, the cable overheats and melts.



    In theory, you can run 2048 EU/t using LV packets in a tin cable, but the resistance would be high, that it melts. Using EV packets reduce that loss, so the cable won't overheat, but the loss is still high due base resistance being high.
    So, the more packets flowing in a cable, the bigger is the loss, therefore you can't stack infinite amounts of packets, otherwise you are going to lose more and more energy or the cable melts.
    Voltage increase is still useful to transfer energy with less losses however you have to deal with up-down transformers.
    Transformers would work similar to the way it did before the e-net overhaul.


    Example 1:
    2048 EU/t -> Energy Transfering wire -> Input machine
    would have 64 times less loss if compared to:
    64 packets of 32 EU/t -> Energy Transfering wire -> Input machine.


    Example2:
    32 EU/t -> 128 EU/4t -> 512 EU/16t -> 2048 EU/64t -> Energy transfering wire -> 512EU/16t -> 128 EU/4t -> 32 EU/t -> Input machine
    would have 64 times less energy loss if compared to :
    32 EU/t -> Energy Transfering wire -> Input machine


    If you want me to further develop the idea of resistance-voltage-amperage-dissipation limit interaction, i will.


    Edit : I may have mistaken some names of real-life, but whatever, too lazy to fix.

    • Official Post

    The using high voltage to transmit power over a long distance sounds just like what pylons do. Your ideas are good :) Tad complicated for beginners though :P

    145 Mods isn't too many. 9 types of copper and 8 types of tin aren't too many. 3 types of coffee though?

    I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you read was not what I meant.


    ---- Minecraft Crash Report ----
    // I just don't know what went wrong :(


    I see this too much.

    SpwnX, thumbs up for your suggestion. We only need to wait till Player will implement it.

    Quote from alexdelphi

    SpwnX, thumbs up for your suggestion. We only need to wait till Player will implement it.


    Do you really think he will restart his probably half way completed E-Net Development for something thats kinda difficult to script, and probably to difficult for the majority of palyers(Most notably including Direwolf20)? Not that I would dislike something really realistic, I just say that its very unlikely to ever happen.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Sinnaj63


    Do you really think he will restart his probably half way completed E-Net Development for something thats kinda difficult to script, and probably to difficult for the majority of palyers(Most notably including Direwolf20)? Not that I would dislike something really realistic, I just say that its very unlikely to ever happen.

    People which already know the old just system just have to adapt some things :
    Higher voltages decrease loss.
    Higher amount of packets increase loss.
    Cables melt if loss is too high.

    Hi, I like your suggestion very much! My three words:
    While this allows you to use Tin wire for EV, it's also more realistic. And if you don't want to get shocked, use HV cable instead (insulation system should remain the same). If you want even lower resistance, use glass fiber (superconductor-ish properties). If you want to keep balanced between high resistance (tin, iron) and high cost (galss fibre), then copper or gold are the way to go.
    BTW, I think the current system is more complicated because of its non-resemblance to IRL! cables melt for voltage and not current etc. It has confused me when I first tried IC2!

    • Official Post

    Another suggestion: remove transformer upgrades (yes, remove them), implement "compacted" transformers, which are able to convert more than one single packet of the higher voltage into 4 times the lower one and add EV transformer.


    Explanation :


    EV transformer would allow up to IV packets (8192) to be transformed down into EV, thus allowing native support to gregtech IV, reactors that produces more than 2048 EU/t would require them and allowing players to use IV to reduce loss. (Therefore HV transformers would blow if supplied with EU/p > 2048 )


    Compacted transformers are 4 "X"V transformers stacked together in the same block [with some stuff to "combine" them of course]
    "Upgraded" = 4 transformers
    "Advanced" = 4 upgraded (16)
    "Highly Advanced" = 4 Advanced (64)
    "Quantum" = 4 Highly Advanced (256)


    For example :
    "Upgraded" EV transformer, handles up to 4 IV packets into 16 EV packets.
    "Advanced" HV transformer, handles up to 16 EV packets into 64 HV packets.
    "Highly Advanced" MV transformer, handles up to 64 HV packets into 256 MV packets.
    "Quantum" LV transformer, handles up to 256 MV packets into 1024 LV packets. [32768 EU/t]


    Of course, only super conductors would be able to handle so many LV packets, otherwise using that much packets would require direct connection between the transformer and the supplied machine.

    there is no packets possible in system with realistic energyflow, optimization of such system done relatively easy:


    each energy source and energy sink linked via network and linkage information stored inside hashtable, link is permanent, cable always have "flow" inside, ever both sink and source stay inactive, power does not flow over cables, it just teleport from source to destination with losses based on link total resistance.


    lowtech devices shoud provide constant voltage.


    hightech devices shoud provide variable power, if voltage loss over link is 20% and max destination voltage 100, hightech source shoud send 122 volts, to minimize loss, energy sent in constant flow without packets, all losses percent based.

    • Official Post

    That makes sense, for the part of "energy teleportation" code, but not the rest.
    AC/DC is not going to be implemented. People already think that EU/t, EU/p and energy loss is hard to understand.
    Thats why my suggestion is based on them.

    you shoud not do something "for idiots" only cos there are too many idiots around.


    completely realistic energy flow damn hard to understand and many factors included and it does not include packets anyway.

    • Official Post
    Quote from RawCode

    you shoud not do something "for idiots" only cos there are too many idiots around.


    completely realistic energy flow damn hard to understand and many factors included and it does not include packets anyway.

    Most things are made to be idiot-proof, including our energy supply (RL). Guess why it shuts down if a high current goes through a plug.


    IC² energy is meant to be a simplification of the real one. People already blow up stuff, fry wires with the current (old) e-net. They would even more with a completely realistic one.

    >> People already blow up stuff, fry wires with the current (old) e-net. They would even more with a completely realistic one.
    Let them do it. IC2 & especially GT isn't and has never been meant for idiots. This way, every and I say EVERY electric scheme might be tested in creative before using it.

    Quote from SpwnX

    Most things are made to be idiot-proof, including our energy supply (RL). Guess why it shuts down if a high current goes through a plug.


    IC² energy is meant to be a simplification of the real one. People already blow up stuff, fry wires with the current (old) e-net. They would even more with a completely realistic one.


    those who think something is idiot proof doesn't realize the universe works to build a "better" idiot everyday
    people make mistakes all the time, especially when traveling abroad.


    Some things do need to change, but making it too easy is no fun
    what should be done is revert the power gen changes so it doesn't add to EU/t but to a new value of amperage and make all the generators output at the EU/t (V) of LV, solar and wind would output at like .125 amps or so (make an even amp with the compact solar arrays first level) basic generator would be 5 amps, geo would be 10 or something like that. This would reflect RL better and still allow for transformers. I know it gets to be like UE, but what the heck, that system is a good working setup.


    Also, there would need to be better wire setups, as aluminum wires are used in the long distance EV (10KV+) power lines due to it being cheaper and lighter than copper, though copper has better conductivity. Copper could easily handle the EV or even IV lines if the wire was thick enough.


    I would also like some sort of superconductive wire that could be made from iridium ore or something really crazy as an end game wire.
    I've said it elsewhere as well, but circuit breaker blocks/panels would also be cool....hmmm...maybe something like RP2's bundled RS cable but for power would be cool. It could be used only for MV/LV lines though.

    • Official Post

    My current concept involves internally simulating with voltage and current and exposing it as power ("23 eu/t") and voltage (maybe "30 V (LV)") .


    The voltage makes machines explode and wires shock, the power used on conduction loss melts wires. More insulation = less shocking = suitable for higher voltage, better materials = less resistance = higher current carrying capabilities.


    loss being P = R * I^2 ofc

    Quote from Player

    My current concept involves internally simulating with voltage and current and exposing it as power ("23 eu/t") and voltage (maybe "30 V (LV)") .


    The voltage makes machines explode and wires shock, the power used on conduction loss melts wires. More insulation = less shocking = suitable for higher voltage, better materials = less resistance = higher current carrying capabilities.


    loss being P = R * I^2 ofc


    you are forgetting that R is dependent on the physical properties of the material and that includes cross sectional area. The thicker the wire the less the resistance
    so you could use copper wire that was very thick for EV, but the power loss should still be higher than a gold wire of the same size.
    and if you want to get technical there comes a point where insulation is pointless, you just have to stay away. RL the high voltage power lines aren't insulated at all, just held away from everything, 11-12 ft IIRC.


    though to throw a monkey wrench into that, you can use insanely high voltages with small wires, you just can't have high amperage, Tazers use very thin wires with voltages in the 10kV range but they don't melt the wires because the amperage is like .05 or so.
    RL can get complicated despite the simple math.

    Quote from Kye_Duo

    you are forgetting that R is dependent on the physical properties of the material and that includes cross sectional area. The thicker the wire the less the resistance
    so you could use copper wire that was very thick for EV, but the power loss should still be higher than a gold wire of the same size.
    and if you want to get technical there comes a point where insulation is pointless, you just have to stay away. RL the high voltage power lines aren't insulated at all, just held away from everything, 11-12 ft IIRC.


    though to throw a monkey wrench into that, you can use insanely high voltages with small wires, you just can't have high amperage, Tazers use very thin wires with voltages in the 10kV range but they don't melt the wires because the amperage is like .05 or so.
    RL can get complicated despite the simple math.

    RL. You mentionned it. If you really want RL stuff, you'd have to include L (not sure of the words represented by this letters in english, it's counted in H (Henry or Henri, don't remember as well ^^) and is the main characteristic of Coils) and then you'd have C [capacity] as well for Condensators ... And then, RLC Circuits as timer xD


    Those are ridiculous in Cables, but not in machines.


    Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
    NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!