IC2 Mod compatability

    Quote from HeadHunter67


    I can understand why Eloraam is doing what she's doing - her initial vision was for a technical mod that did all of those things in one mod, and she's stuck to that. Her priorities have been guided by the fact that some things can already be done in other mods, so those parts can be back-burnered... but FC's withdrawal illustrates why such a vision is needed. If one cannot count on other mods to provide these things because of compatibility issues, it becomes essential to provide them within one's own mod.


    Not to mention she's not doing a 100% ripoff like FC has made it to seem like. Sure she has pneumatic tubes but they behave rather different from BC pipes. Sure she has the beginnings of her own machines but they also behave rather different from other ones so far. (well, with the exception of the bluelectric furnace but you can't really do much with a furnace)
    I for one can't wait to muck about with frames. If you can make them move vertically it'll make for a nice elevator system.

    • Official Post

    From my PoV, FlowerChild dropped Forge because Forge==Eloraam=="Copying BTW stuff". I agree, dropping Forge is definitely the wrong way, but there isn't much else he could do if he wants to boykott RP. And actually that's something i was tinkering with as well, though in a much less drastic manner.
    Currently I'm waiting to see how RP evolves, but if Eloraam starts copying more stuff from IC, i will probably follow FCs example in a way to enforce incompatibility with RP. I hope that Eloraam will reconsider her idea of creating "The one-and-only" tech-mod, because that implies rivalling IC and BC per definition.

    I agree with Headhunter67 100%. There's no doubt BTW is a great mod but technical competence is only part of the equation. Good people skills and supporting the fan base are just as important. Look at minecraft itself, some of the releases were pretty buggy but people stuck with it because Mojang communicated the issues and didn't alienate themselves from their fans.


    I can only hope FC realizes this before it's too late and BTW goes the way of the dodo...


    So Alblaka, if Elloram continues with her current trend would you pull out of forge as well?

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

    Quote from Alblaka

    From my PoV, FlowerChild dropped Forge because Forge==Eloraam=="Copying BTW stuff". I agree, dropping Forge is definitely the wrong way, but there isn't much else he could do if he wants to boykott RP. And actually that's something i was tinkering with as well, though in a much less drastic manner.
    Currently I'm waiting to see how RP evolves, but if Eloraam starts copying more stuff from IC, i will probably follow FCs example in a way to enforce incompatibility with RP. I hope that Eloraam will reconsider her idea of creating "The one-and-only" tech-mod, because that implies rivalling IC and BC per definition.

    Perhaps the big tech mod authors need to get back together and rescind their agreement or make a new one. Locking each other out of your mods is mostly going to hurt users that want to use more than one of your mods.
    Eloraam does seem quite stubborn though in how she seems to want to make the mod that she wants to play, whether someone has done it before or not. Although the time she spends putting in a feature that's already in Industrialcraft or Buildcraft is time you guys spend adding stuff that she doesnt have, so she's only wasting her own time.


    Just another way of thinking about it.

    At the end of the day fans will go with the majority and the mods that are incompatible with everything else will collect dust.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

    • Official Post

    Well I don't know if I can speak for the whole team here, so I want it to be clear that these are my opinions and not necessarily the teams...


    Quote from TSR_Viper

    At the end of the day fans will go with the majority and the mods that are incompatible with everything else will collect dust.


    Quite frankly I don't care, for tech mods I run IC2, BC, and a BC addon, that's it. A while back (RP1) I considered running RP, purely for the advanced wiring, logic gates ect, even lighting, why not. However when RP2 came along, I started out "Cool, RP is now a forge mod, and the wiring is better than ever" ...then Blutricity came out, the ele furnace and solar panel, and I went "WTH!?! Eloram just COMPLETELY ripped IC off, then I cooled off a bit, and went, "Well its only one small feature of IC, and IC is still superior in this aspect, so I guess I could let it go." A while later tubes appeared, then I went "Ok now this is going too far, I can understand a small bit of overlap in mods, but obviously Eloram is trying to take over the ENTIRE tech mod spectrum, essentially trying to combine everything together" Well that started the crossing of borders, and now there is a sorting machine. IMHO Eloram has gone too far already, and I ENTIRELY agree with Alblaka, and will 100% support him if the team takes this position.


    Call me old fashioned but I believe that if you want the features of a mod, then you get that mod, even if you don't want all aspects of that mod. Thanks for reading


    [/rant]


    EDIT:
    Oh one last thing, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really care if people do use IC, I use IC, I love IC, and I will continue to use IC, if someone else does differently, I could really care less, we are NOT in it for the money, we are in it because we want to.

    Lesson 1: Watch over your crops....

    Don't get me wrong alexthesax, I'm an IC supporter from way back, I was referring to BTW boycott of forge and apparent disregard for playing nice with other mods. I have two major mods with any MC version I run, IC and BC. I don't agree with everything Eloraam is moving towards but it doesn't effect me greatly as I'll struggle with vanilla redstone rather than lose IC/BC.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

    • Official Post

    Well I agree with you. I have never used BTW, but just looking at screenshots ect, it looks cool. I do agree with Alblaka too...



    Quote from Alblaka

    A thing most people probably don't know:
    FC got pissed off by the fact Eloraam started copying more and more elements of BTW/BC/IC, which is the reason he decided to drop Forge again.
    I can fully understand his motions in this regard and even if i don't exactly agree with his reactions (probably influenced by stress) mentioned in the post above, I would like people stopping to consider him THE bad guy in the whole conflict.


    I would MUCH rather go with Alblakas idea on including hooks to break RP overlaps with other mods, than drop forge entirely. Maybe FC hasn't thought about it this way, so it might be a good idea to suggest it. I am all for having compatible mods, thus why should those who want to run IC/BC/BTW suffer because BTW is not compatible with forge entirely? Just make it incompatible with RP and be done. That's my two cents anyway...

    Lesson 1: Watch over your crops....

    Quote from alexthesax


    I would MUCH rather go with Alblakas idea on including hooks to break RP overlaps with other mods, than drop forge entirely. Maybe FC hasn't thought about it this way, so it might be a good idea to suggest it. I am all for having compatible mods, thus why should those who want to run IC/BC/BTW suffer because BTW is not compatible with forge entirely? Just make it incompatible with RP and be done. That's my two cents anyway...


    A more sensible choice for sure.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

    Actually, one of the most useful things in BTW is the cement. Now if we could just get that...

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

    Quote from Alblaka

    Currently I'm waiting to see how RP evolves, but if Eloraam starts copying more stuff from IC, i will probably follow FCs example in a way to enforce incompatibility with RP. I hope that Eloraam will reconsider her idea of creating "The one-and-only" tech-mod, because that implies rivalling IC and BC per definition.


    Enforced incompatibility is a disservice to your fans and players. Basically, you force them to choose, one or the other. I've illustrated how I act when put to that extreme - I'd hate to have to choose between two mods I love.
    As long as the two of you work together, fans don't have to choose and can use both. Don't make FC's mistake and let ego get in the way of making something people want to use.

    For those that are curious as to Eloraams methods and thought process, if you haven't read this I'd highly suggest it:http://www.eloraam.com/?p=198


    Going beyond that I have to say that I slightly understand the hesitance that some mod developers are having with the way that RP is headed however I have little doubt that there will always be a place for the IC/RP/BC combo.


    Sure, RP introduces tubes which are slightly similar to the pipes in BC but if I where to try to build a factory I would still need to use pipes for the majority of it.
    Sure, RP may bring on some of the basic machines that IC was first to pioneer but I don't see it ever coming out with the Mass Fabricator, Quantum suit, jetpack, Power tools, Sell-o-mat, Autominer and any other choice features that IC brings to the table.
    Sure, RP is bringing in electrical generation and wiring but BC/IC also has it's own overlap in that department yet I hear no suggestions of hooks to make IC and BC incompatible.


    My point is while there may be future overlap there will always be features that IC has that can't be found anywhere else that draws people to install it over only having RP. Just because RP brings on some of the basic ground level tech so that it can build on it from there doesn't mean it's ever going to make IC obsolete. Assuming the IC devs continue their trend of ingenuity and innovation as they bring more and more features to IC, then there will always be a need for IC.

    • Official Post
    Quote from HeadHunter67

    Don't make FC's mistake and let ego get in the way of making something people want to use.


    It's not ego, it's the basic issue of somebody copying other people's work and ignoring they fact everyone previously agreed on not overlapping the mods.


    Quote from daedroug

    My point is while there may be future overlap there will always be features that IC has that can't be found anywhere else that draws people to install it over only having RP. Just because RP brings on some of the basic ground level tech so that it can build on it from there doesn't mean it's ever going to make IC obsolete. Assuming the IC devs continue their trend of ingenuity and innovation as they bring more and more features to IC, then there will always be a need for IC.


    The problem is, Eloraam said she strifers for ONE universal tech-mod. Thus she will somewhen come back on Electric machines and other stuff and i'm highly afraid she will just create her own version of IC. Dunno how much it will match with the original, but it will still be a copy. And i seriously hate people copying other people's work, in any direction or regard.


    Heck, do you even remember the time when i thought about implementing rubber to IC1? It took me multiple days to find a valid solution. Why? Because i didn't want to create a placeable treetap which could have been considered a copy of Shockah's PlasticCraft. Still refuse to create anything blockish that can be applied to trees to gain resin for that reason, though most people probably don't even now Plasticcraft anymore.

    Begin rant...
    So, it seems that your solution for another mod having similar features to your own is to make users choose theirs or yours. This only seems to hurt the users in the end. If I was in Eloraam's shoes and you made it so your mod specifically broke compatibility with my mod, I would see that as a pretty good reason to add powered tools and a few other machines to my mod. I mean, if my mod isn't going to work with yours, I might as well give users the missing features so that they can continue to enjoy the same experience.



    Of course, this is an extreme example...the point I'm trying to make is that this drama over who is copying who is getting rather silly. Ideas are just that, ideas. IC has its own path, playstyle, etc. RedPower likewise has its own path, playstyle, etc. Both are mods that include a form of electricity and associated machines. The types of machines available are going to be similar (at least initially) purely because many of the ideas come straight from real-world technology. However, the way they are implemented and play out is different already and that gap will likely only increase as RP advances.


    Alblaka, you have some rather awesome features in your mod and I currently play on a server that uses it and RedPower. However, if I was forced to choose between it and Redpower, there would be no contest...I'd choose RedPower. Many of the features that I've seen planned for RedPower really interest me and IC has nothing similar.


    As for the comment about Eloraam trying to be the only tech mod, is there some reason she shouldn't try follow a natural progression for her tech tree? I mean, do you honestly expect her to make her tech tree revolve around IC features (or BC features) to function? What about visual feel? Should she include hooks in her mod to retexture and remodel various parts of IC/BC? If I wanted to sit down and make my own take on a tech mod, I'd probably do the exact same thing she is. Figure out what I want my mod to do and then add the features to make it do that, in my own style, and let users decide if they like my rendition or the others better.


    All in all, this 'stop copying me' nonsense seems like grade school children fighting and should really just stop. People ARE going to make similar mods. The easier modding becomes, the MORE it is going to happen. Be flattered that you're the inspiration for another modder, or consider it a challenge to make your mod better, but don't go around acting like you should be the only one with this feature or that feature.


    End rant..


    If read this far, thanks. At least ya took the time to hear what I had to say. Ciao.

    • Official Post

    As much as i appreciate free oppinion, i'm assuming you never created something similar that's either software or a similar artistic value. It fucking hurts to see people copying your stuff. But that's something people who aren't exactly creating this things can't understand, no offense intended here.


    As well, i never talked about enforcing a pick between RP and IC. I would exclusively disable those parts of RP i consider copied/stolen. The whole redstone logic and wiring section is legit and extremely useful in my eyes. Everything else is already present in IC BC as well.


    Thus you would have to choose between IC+BC+RP's-actual-content or RP with it's copy stuff from IC/BC.
    Assuming SpaceToad would join in, not entirely sure about that yet. But let's say he isn't exactly happy about RPs developement either.

    I've got to say, Ecu hit the nail right on the head there.


    Quote from Alblaka

    As much as i appreciate free oppinion, i'm assuming you never created something similar that's either software or a similar artistic value. It fucking hurts to see people copying your stuff.


    We do understand that - but that's still your pride standing in the way. When feelings enter the realm of design, that's what I mean about "ego" - it stops being about the best way to deliver solutions and starts being about how to prevent others from doing so. Incompatibility won't change that - ingenuity will. We're talking about software design here - users will have certain tasks they want to perform, and the developer will work to provide the means to do them. It's best if those solutions are unique and imaginative, but there's NO point in doing something the "second-best" way just because someone else did it already.


    I can understand that you don't want your creativity merely appropriated by others, but in any creative endeavor, people are always going to build off others' ideas. Consider music - there are only 12 notes, no matter how you slice it. There are only certain notes that sound right together, so the number of chords one can play are limited (there are also physical limitations to the chords we can play). Only certain chords or notes can properly precede or follow others. The end result? Every rock musician out there is copying the people that went before him. As they say, we're all stealing from Chuck Berry.


    I can understand why Eloraam's actions bother others, I truly do. but I also understand that if I have to use several mods to do these things, rather than one, I have the right to expect they'll be compatible - and if they refuse to be, I would want one mod that does it all. I don't mind using BC and IC and RP together - I know that they're designed to work together and even if there's overlap, it just gives me more options. I would have liked to add BTW to that as well for even broader gameplay - but thanks to FCs decision, that's a dead-end avenue.


    I think we'd all prefer if you spend your time continuing to improve IC, instead of disabling sections of other mods we use. Please leave that for US to decide. We use both mods simply because each one offers something we can't get in the other - but I, for one, am uncomfortable with the idea that one mod may be deliberately sabotaging another. Unexpected incompatibility is bad enough, we don't need conflict by design.


    Eloraam is not going to drive you out of "business" or banish you to obscuirty by her actions - and that's the only reason I could imagine for you to be concerned in the first place. You just keep doing what you've always done and you're sure to have many fans and admirers.

    Quote from Alblaka

    http://www.industrial-craft.net/?p=284


    Guess we can close this topic now?


    Well, I wouldn't say that... we can still discuss matters, but that particular line of discussion can be laid to rest.


    It's good to see that you talked it over and foiund common ground! As I've said, everyone benefits when modders work together - sometimes it means making compromises that in the ned will pay off all around, sometimes it just means understanding that mod developers of your caliber all just want the same thing - to make a great mod that delivers everything you and your fans would want in it. Eloraam gets very passionate about her vision, but she's goit class and I don't think she means to step on others' toes.


    I think SpaceToad will be on board with this new direction - you're all really great people and you make great mods that work together. I would like to see that continue for a long, long time to come - we all benefit from your colllaboration!