Suggestion: Solar panel revision (Thread post attempt #3 - daytime posting)

1st Official Post

    There are two /real/ problems with the use of solar panels at the moment.

    • Some consider the ease of building giant solar arrays a game breaking problem.
    • Building vast arrays of solar panels floods the server/client with multiple 1eU/t packets each second for each panel.


    (Production rate) Both of these aren't related to the actual production rate of solar panels. 0.5 eU/t would actually be more realistic, but for the moment I'd like to set that aside and focus on the two bigger issues.



    Cost doesn't seem out of balance either. Solar panels are already, arguably, costly enough to produce. Aside from needing slightly higher tech and every piece of equipment to produce, nuclear reactors are actually a fair comparison; at least with the safe designs.



    What seems to be the problem; as pointed out by others, perhaps without realizing exactly this; is the density of generators. Having hundreds of active anything forces lots of updates and many more things to track and synchronize. Even if the grid is multi-threaded by logically making each node of wire it's own work unit the calculation there would still be sub-optimal and would involve many elements.


    So fix /that/ part of the problem directly. Make it so that a flat grid of panels only connects at a single point. That also has a fringe benefit (from multiple angles if you think carefully about the ramifications) of making any large array of solar panels produce packets that natively fill copper wire. If a 7x7 (max width) diamond is made then including the center, which would be the collector's location, it would have 16 tiles. Growing that to 9x9 would make for 32 tiles. Those are the two possible sizes that I think should be used; others aren't multiples of 2 and thus aren't as easy to make compatible with the wires.



    However this isn't quite enough; there still needs to be incentive to build as few generators as possible. Thus the cost of a generator panel should be higher. Probably a recipe like this:


    If capable of outputting 32eU/t... (from however many attached panels; glass and advanced circuit aren't /quite/ represented well here)
    :Force Field::Coal Dust::Force Field:
    :Coal Dust::Generator::Coal Dust:


    :Glass Fibre::Electronic Circuit::Glass Fibre:


    Otherwise normal insulated copper wire and a normal circuit would work for 8-16 eU/t limit.


    The individual side panels should thus be cheaper, since they can't interface with the power grid*:
    :Force Field::Force Field::Force Field:
    :Coal Dust::Electronic Circuit::Coal Dust:
    :Tin Ingot::Tin Ingot::Tin Ingot: (tin wire)



    3 glass, 2 coal dust, 1 circuit, three tin wire.



    *There should be one exception for interfacing the lesser solar panels to the power grid. Any normal storage tech that recharges things (batbox, MFE, MFSUnit) can have a solar panel /directly touching/ a surface and receive any power it might generate. This would make for a limit of 5*eU/t generated by panels without using a proper collector.



    The above modifications would open up initial access to solar panels /slightly/ earlier (right around the time when generators are starting to be a pain to use, but still making the actual output somewhat similar to a generator in what it could produce). It would also more balance what solar arrays are capable of later in the game, and also provide the ability to make /flat/ grids as are so desired.


    Also, I think that solar panels should be not-full-height, so that mobs can't spawn on them.



    Solar Arrays !
    :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Water Mill: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline: :Rubber Trampoline:
    :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber: :Rubber Trampoline:


    Solar Panel :' breaks as a smiley :(


    PS: This is the //third// time I'm trying to post this; if it's vanishing or -moving- for moderation and NOT database failure issues -let me know- so I stop trying or know where to find it.

    • Official Post
    Quote from MJEvans

    Building vast arrays of solar panels floods the server/client with multiple 1eU/t packets each second for each panel.


    This sentence alone makes me want to thrash the whole thread yet again (but you actually got the title formatting right this time).


    EU-SENDING DOESNT FREAKKIN EAT ANY CPU. Dunno how often i've to say that until people keep it in their heads.
    Loading/Unloading Chunks with solars on it can cause CPU-drain.
    Placing/Removing components to an energy grid can eat CPU.
    EU-sending does not.

    Quote from Alblaka


    EU-SENDING DOESNT FREAKKIN EAT ANY CPU. Dunno how often i've to say that until people keep it in their heads.
    Loading/Unloading Chunks with solars on it can cause CPU-drain.
    Placing/Removing components to an energy grid can eat CPU.
    EU-sending does not.


    Ah.. that explains a few things. I was wondering about two things:
    1: why I never got any lag: simple: the chunks with all of my solar panels never unload, thanks to a few chunkloader blocks.
    2: the supposedly magical "fix" in one of the addon sections did nothing: answered above

    Quote

    EU-SENDING DOESNT FREAKKIN EAT ANY CPU. Dunno how often i've to say that until people keep it in their heads.
    Loading/Unloading Chunks with solars on it can cause CPU-drain.
    Placing/Removing components to an energy grid can eat CPU.
    EU-sending does not.

    In that case, sounds like alot of server owners need to get 'Teleport Pipe's' Chunk loading block then, and have them placed at each site a solar panel setup sits... That saves both lag, server, and solar design altogether...


    I'm not going to entertain the topic of 'solar balance' though... If you don't get why they exist in the first place, then it seems you have some environmental/energy management homework to do...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    See, I hadn't seen -any- post stating that 1eU/t packets weren't the cause of lag, only the alternative theory. However, my suggestion /does/ simplify the number of nodes in the network, and thus (if a tiny bit of information is cached in the 'generator' nodes relating to their current generation capacity) would reduce the chunk load/unload issues.


    As for the topic format; we're already in the suggestion area, redundancy in topics is redundant. If it's a requirement, thank you whomever fixed it.


    Finally as for errors/removed/deleted posts. Please be like unix commands; when there's an error -tell the user-.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Rick

    Make solars send larger packets like 512 eu packets so they dont unload/load and all that shit 20 times per second for each solar panel.


    Honestly, if you got no clue about something, don't make random suggestions.
    I just stated, not even a page ago, that the EU sending is not relevantly influencing CPU.


    Chunk (un)loading is related to you walking far off, causing the chunks the Solar panels are on to unload.



    Reducing the frequency of non-relevant EU packages has neither any relation to CPu performance nor (un)loading of chunks

    Quote

    Chunk (un)loading is related to you walking far off, causing the chunks the Solar panels are on to unload.


    Reducing the frequency of non-relevant EU packages has neither any relation to CPu performance nor (un)loading of chunks

    What's even more said is that I posted a solution to this problem as well after you did Alba... Course, I could understand if a server doesn't have buildcraft installed why a buildcraft add-on solution would not help them, but nonetheless using a block item to keep a section of the server constantly loaded would prevent the 'on-off' lag experience that servers get when ppl move in and out of chunks that contain huge amounts of solars within them. Sure, that would mean that the CPU uptime on the server would slightly increase, but I doubt that it would be so dramatic that servers would be forced to shut down in result...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

    Reflecting on the restated problem (which spawned the idea of this topic, so loosely relevant); would it be possible to, as I suggested about the 'generator' part of the solar grid; just store the grid state with each chunk and /assume/ it is correct until an add/remove event within that chunk triggers an update?

    Quote from Alblaka

    Jep, that "Chunk-Block" is a valid concept.


    I think I'm going to have to build one of those for the tower on my one world that has the big solar array on it. Maybe it would address the lag issue I was having once and for all. Can't hurt - what's a few iron?

    Quote from HeadHunter67


    I think I'm going to have to build one of those for the tower on my one world that has the big solar array on it. Maybe it would address the lag issue I was having once and for all. Can't hurt - what's a few iron?


    Just be sure to poke f9 and be sure that all of the panels are covered, it'll probably take several chunkloader blocks. (f9 adds a blue outline to perma loaded chunks)

    Okey, maybe it have been talked about alt and in different theds and places, but the problem in solars is not the lag... (damn, google "MC optimization" or "how to allocate more memory to MC" if you have slow machine).


    The main isue with solars are that they are inbalanced in a strange way that in the start you begin to make them and when you finaly got to the late game you should move to higher tier power suply, but there is no need to buid reactor or generator arrays or biofuel factories from needines of higher tier power becouse you have like 64 solars above your head and they already been placed so no matenence is needed so you usualy go with that. (Late game IC2 would be sufficiant material backup to make a reactor or two and Qsuit in play)


    The easyest solution I see is to make a recipe for a solar cell. and solar power amlifier wich just have inventory in witch they burn those cells for EU overtime, making solar power cheep in the beggining but maitanence required for powerfull output of EU will be too much compered to lets say making reactor MK I or MK II or crazy one ... The problem is peoples natural instinc to go for expensive but lazy, if you make them move too much around filling the sollar adopters with cells they gona take the easyer way and make a reactor.

    I think that one of the larger issues with solar arises from the "maintenance-free" side of it:


    Lets say that you need a large number of EUs for a project, or running a base. You have the option of either building a colossal nuclear reactor, and watching it for the entire duration of running, to prevent it overheating, or you could build a load of small reactors, which will run for a few hours, and then run out of fuel, giving you energy, but still at a fairly hefty cost.


    Or, you can build a stack of solars, log them onto copper cables, and leave it for an IRL night. Plonk a Mass Fabricator on there, too, and you have a load of diamonds into the equation, too!


    Now, I'm not saying that I have a big solution, but the main issue is arising from the ability to "fire and forget" the solar generators, which, as the most powerful renewable source, makes them OP, for the moment.


    Perhaps one method would be to stop them generating when no one's in the vicinity? Or take them down to the levels of wind and water?

    Quote from Red Lynx

    The main isue with solars are that they are inbalanced in a strange way that in the start you begin to make them and when you finaly got to the late game you should move to higher tier power suply, but there is no need to buid reactor or generator arrays or biofuel factories from needines of higher tier power becouse you have like 64 solars above your head and they already been placed so no matenence is needed so you usualy go with that. (Late game IC2 would be sufficiant material backup to make a reactor or two and Qsuit in play) .


    Then that would indicate the problem is not the solars, but that the higher tier generators (like the reactor) are underpowered. Lack of required maintenance is not the issue - a well-designed reactor doesn't need babysitiing, except to replace the fuel. I think if we focused all this attention on why people don't use reactors instead, we'd make more progress.

    Quote from Bibble

    Perhaps one method would be to stop them generating when no one's in the vicinity? Or take them down to the levels of wind and water?


    Never used a wind mill, have you? Placed at the build limit, a wind mill will generate about 30% more EU/t during the day - and it keeps working at night. It's just a little harder to set-up.
    Let me ask you something: Is it somehow MORE fun for you if your machines don't work as well? I have yet to understand the mindset of people who make recommendations that don't solve the issues but only introduce inefficiency and misery to the equation.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Lor

    Thanks for setting some of this information straight. Apologies for asking an additional question here, but is/was (in case a change is in the works) any truth to the assertion that the daylight check cause(d) excessive server lag in large arrays? Or was that another cause (the chunk stuff, maybe) ?


    Daylight checks theoretically could have causes a minimal CPU spike all 128 frames (6 secodns), which of course, if there are thousands of Solar Panels at once, could cause a valid CPU-spike.
    The algorythm was redone and uses a static variable stored in the MC lightmap now, thus after 1.30 Solar Panels should be less CPU intensive. Dunno whether it will fix the whole Server-lag issue, though, as i'm not sure whether it's the cause.

    Quote from HeadHunter67

    Never used a wind mill, have you? Placed at the build limit, a wind mill will generate about 30% more EU/t during the day - and it keeps working at night. It's just a little harder to set-up.
    Let me ask you something: Is it somehow MORE fun for you if your machines don't work as well? I have yet to understand the mindset of people who make recommendations that don't solve the issues but only introduce inefficiency and misery to the equation.


    Hint: In 1.8 standard maximum height is 255.