Discussion about conversion mods.

Quote from Alblaka

If I would want to change Eloraams decision and wouldn't be in my current position (= dev of a mod that's Eloraam trying to stay compatible to), i would probably try to persuade as many people as possible.

There's only one person that needs to be persuaded - and that's Eloraam. Unless and until that happens, you still haven't changed the one mind that matters in the issue.

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If everyone asks Eloraam to do X, not doing X could have bad PR effects :3

Quite to the contrary - Eloraam has made it clear that she intends to the mod that she wants to play, her way. She's willing to accept suggestions but she's unwilling to let public pressure direct the course of her development.
I think you know her well enough to know that if she got a lot of flak from people about something, she'd simply stop sharing RedPower with the rest of us. No one wins in that scenario.

Eloraam can be reasoned with, but not by the means of mob rule. You're much the same way - we can observe that his previous campaign did not change your ban policy in the least.
If Saul's not even persuasive enough to convince people like me of his case, he's certainly not going to get very far changing someone like Eloraam's mind.

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Quote from Alblaka

Question is, why do you claim he's trying to change the system by talking in an entirely irrelevant forum to an entirely irrelevant person (no offense intended)?
If I would want to change Eloraams decision and wouldn't be in my current position (= dev of a mod that's Eloraam trying to stay compatible to), i would probably try to persuade as many people as possible. If everyone asks Eloraam to do X, not doing X could have bad PR effects :3

Nontheless, didn't mean to interrupt your discussion, please proceed, i enjoy watching well-formed arguments. Proves the internet doesn't necessaryly turn every dispute into a flamewar.

Hmm... this deeply depends on the attidude of the modder and of the special situation.

I will just move on and take IC2-examples. A short view into the suggestion-forums brings up both options that are avaiable:

1. There are things you consider unimportant, but if there are enough people telling you it is important to them you might still implement it.
2. There are things you consider stupid or conflicting with the design you have in mind. Even with many people telling you to implement it you won't see these things in other terms. And here is the importance of the attidude. If people go for there own plans than they would just ignore the masses and keep on design their work like they want to. Or other will implement it although they feel it's a bad idea.

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If everyone asks Eloraam to do X, not doing X could have bad PR effects :3

BtW changed my mind about this. FC is a strange and very... someone called it incombatible... person. He dropped forge and the only thing that matters for him and his mod is the fun he has while creating it. This is fine and his forum post often keep me entertained during work. Still BtW is as popular as ever, if not even more popular. That's mainly because he has a clear plan and is focused on his design, which becomes straight and is well formed due to ignoring most ideas from others. I think this behavior is less common if you have a dev-team, since I think even inside the IC2-Crew the greater plan for the mod may look different and there are various ideas. But an individual creator like eloraam or flowerchild have only one single individual to please and it's themself. Bevor everyone else comes into play they need to enjoy the process of creating the mod for themself and any rule they put in place basically exists to ensure their own enjoyment in modding.

The real problem is, that the ModLoader, ModLoaderMP and/or Forge are not under the GPL. When it was, the complete discussion would not exists. Because El had not been closing the sourcecode.

But maybe it's because she like me an german people and we're idiots about our "Recht auf geistiges Eigentum"...

Immibis is still free to continue his mod IF he want to, so long he follow the guidelines of Redpower2 license:

-Dont look into the source code
-Dont public any RP2 Code without authorization
-Dont change in any way watsoever the RP2 Source code
-(Other things may applied, i forgot what else would be worth noting)

and the last rule that wasnt so clear to people that dont read her thread often:

-Dont do any kind of Conversion of bluetricity energy, most specific dont do IC2/BC to Bluetricity and the other way around, the rest MAY or MAY BE NOT forbidden to do but you first must consult with eloraam.

So under those guidelines, if Immibis would abandon the conversion concept and anything that would call RP2 funtions (AKA Anything bluelectric related), he could still continue with his mod, but since everything from that mod its related to bluetricity he cant do that (Or better said, he had nothing to continue), reason why Al and Elo came with the flying hammer of Copyright protection and shit.

And no, there is no proper way to call bluelectric features without making a change or two in the source or looking at it either because Elo hasnt made a Api for it because if you havent noticed, RedPower2 is still in PRE-RELEASE.

Quote from Saul_Goode

Which suggests to me that I never had a chance with you. You came in here expecting to be opposition and nothing I had to say was going to eclipse that focus.

Oh, you had a chance - but you also had a history for being obstinate and focusing on the wrong part of the issue. Sadly, what I've seen in the current thread has not changed that expectation.
There are plenty of people who can attest that I'm perfectly capable of reason, and even of modifying my perspective... but as the author of the thread (and the individual with a concern), it's up to you to convince me of your position. That hasn't happened yet.

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My reason for this is that I'd rather be right in the minority as opposed to wrong in the majority.

A noble statement - but, sadly, that doesn't mean you're in the right. There's only one "right"being discussed here - and that is Eloraam's right to decide what is done with anything pertaining to RedPower. Whether you like it or not, that's not a right you can modify or take from her.

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I wouldn't lie about getting a PM on a forum.

I don't doubt you got it - I merely think that whomever sent it is not exactly proud to agree with you. If they were as certain of your rectitude as you are, they'd support you openly.

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This was about immibis' submod.

Let's be specific - about Immibis' add-on for RedPower. Because it's a RedPower add-on, Eloraam has every right to forbid it. She doesn't need a reason, she doesn't owe an explanation... that's just the way it is.
The addon uses the words "RedPower" and "Blutricity", requires RedPower to run, and uses items unique to the RedPower code. That makes any unauthorized addon an infringement of her intellectual property.
Try writing a book based on someone else's characters and see how quickly they shut you down.

Wow, people are still arguing about this?

There is a publicly available API for Industrial Craft 2. People can make addons using this without having to decompile IC2.

There is a publicly available API for Build Craft. People can make addons using this without having to decompile BC.

There is no API for Red Power 2. One would have to decompile Red Power 2. Miss Eloraam does not wish for her mod to be decompiled.

Saying there should be a RP2 == IC2 crossover mod just because there are several IC2 == BC crossover mods is apples and oranges.

You can argue whether it is 'fair play' whether Eloraam has a right to ask that her code not be reverse engineered since everyone else up on the chain did not mind, but in the end, she can take her ball and go home.

(Please correct me if you find a RP2 API somewhere.)

Quote from HeadHunter67

Try writing a book based on someone else's characters and see how quickly they shut you down.

www.fanfiction.net

Fanfics aren't what we are talking about. There's a pretty broad area of "fair use", but distributing an unauthorized add-on for software falls far outside that area. Posting an add-on on a forum like this falls into the definition of "publication and distribution" - especially since it was hosted for public download.

Quote from HeadHunter67

Fanfics aren't what we are talking about. There's a pretty broad area of "fair use", but distributing an unauthorized add-on for software falls far outside that area. Posting an add-on on a forum like this falls into the definition of "publication and distribution" - especially since it was hosted for public download.

The fanfic remark was made in jest. As you can see from the rest of my post, I am on your side.

Quote from Saul_Goode

(/edit: This was written before I saw HeadHunters' post above, I'm tired but just wanted to say it was written and posted without taking his into account, before I go on to bed.)

Right, And as I've been trying to point out... Eloraam has proven herself to be the type of person that has an extremely one-sided view of cooperation. She has implemented her own version of central concepts of other mods, but is completely unwilling to allow someone else to even look at her code to see how it works.

Silence will never change anything. Change needs a voice, even if it starts with only one.

That is very inspirational. But it is also off-topic. Forge is not Red Power 2.

Good night, sirs.

Quote from Saul_Goode

(/edit: This was written before I saw HeadHunters' post above, I'm tired but just wanted to say it was written and posted without taking his into account, before I go on to bed.)

Right, And as I've been trying to point out... Eloraam has proven herself to be the type of person that has an extremely one-sided view of cooperation. She has implemented her own version of central concepts of other mods, but is completely unwilling to allow someone else to even look at her code to see how it works.

Silence will never change anything. Change needs a voice, even if it starts with only one.

Im willing to say that because Redpower2 is stil in PRE-RELEASE state aka UNFINISHED, shes being more harsh on letting people look at her code, be happy we are in a "Open Beta" sort of states, because if you didnt know eloraam also does the bug catching herself.

MAYBE, just MAYBE when Redpower2 is finally released and out of the beta tag, she will be a little more lenient about addons and sub-mods of her own work, specially the release of a API to make use of her features without invading her source code, which if you were a developer/programmer, you would know that the source code its the most sacred thing one have.

Quite honestly i still dont know why we are still discussing about this, nothing you say will change anything, in fact it may do quite the contrary and have negative effects.

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Right, And as I've been trying to point out... Eloraam has proven herself to be the type of person that has an extremely one-sided view of cooperation. She has implemented her own version of central concepts of other mods, but is completely unwilling to allow someone else to even look at her code to see how it works.

Hmm... one-sided view... of course it is her position and she don't want to change it at the moment.

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Silence will never change anything. Change needs a voice, even if it starts with only one.

Although your voice might change something it is definitly not eloraams position about the handling of her mod.

You seem to me like some kind of modern robin-hood first fighting for the rights of update-requesters and now for copyright-violaters... I don't think you even care about the matter it's more about opposing as some kind of strange hobby. And since you don't have any convincing arguments for begging eloraam to change her rules and don't want to convince her yourself either I don't really see a point in this whole discussion. It's discussion with only the purpuse to feed itself, but without even the slightest impact outside.

The only real contributions came from alblaka's statements about some things he experienced. And if Alblaka get's some stupid requests eloraam is in an even worse position, because most people mistake her for being the only person to work at the forge etc. And it's again a totally different situation because she is a single person. Handling a forum like the IC2-One isn't that easy alone, while still working on your own mod. And time is one of the main reason she just places the general rules about her mod. Most of her rules are not for the good of her mod, but for her own sanity.

Quote from Frantic Fanatic

The fanfic remark was made in jest. As you can see from the rest of my post, I am on your side.

I understand and appreciate that - just wanted to address it in case other people consider it to have any serious validity.

Quote from Saul_Goode

Eloraam has proven herself to be the type of person that has an extremely one-sided view of cooperation. She has implemented her own version of central concepts of other mods, but is completely unwilling to allow someone else to even look at her code to see how it works.

The difference is, she did it her own way - she didn't decompile someone else's work in direct violation of their license.
As for "cooperation", I don't recall her asking for any of it with her mod. She's already stated that she intends to make a mod that has what she wants to see and what she wants to play. She works alone because she doesn't want design by committe - and this way she doesn't have to feel like she needs to make compromises or accommodate what others want from her vision.

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Silence will never change anything. Change needs a voice, even if it starts with only one.

Regrettably, your voice will not be that voice of change. You think too highly of your ability to persuade others. You lack true conviction - perhaps because you unconsciously realize that you don't actually believe the things you say. That is why it is hard for you to even convince us here. Add in the fact that you have not and will not speak to the person whom you claim to wish to change... all I see is a lot of empty, meaningless, and pointless debate. It's no different now than it was a couple months ago.

You are not a crusader, you are not the Hero of the Proletariat, you are not the Sole Voice of Reason Against the Howling Mob. You'll never be able to fight for anyone's rights until you learn to stop trampling over everyone else's.

Quote from Saul_Goode

My GOD... why is it that you cannot view this in the context that it is intended?

Because you've vacillated on exactly what that context is, because you've been unable to satisfactorily articulate that context, and because whatever context you've thus far conveyed is immaterial to the Way. Things. Work.

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Who here would have liked to have seen a mod with this functionality? Who here would like there to be a mod that converts between Eloraams Blutricity and Alblakas EU?

I'd love to. But that doesn't mean I have the right to demand it if Eloraam doesn't want it.
You should be thankful that I don't always get what *I* want...

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You can mock me all you like with terms like 'Robin Hood' and 'voice of change' or 'folk-hero', but that just tells me that you have resorted name calling after all your arguments have been invalidated.

Dream on. Our argument stands by virtue of the facts. Those being: Eloraam didn't want the add-on distributed, and it was removed. Alblaka supports her wishes and she's got every right to do so.
So, you see, your arguments have no validity on their own merit. As much as you'd like us to be able to argue your points, we simply can't because there is nothing to them.
We've got nothing left to do but to try and disabuse you of the notion that you can accomplish anything more than making yourself look ridiculous and overblown.

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Yet you said that you are skeptical. Doubt is the definition of skeptical.

Is English your primary language? You may want to review my statement and analyze the syntax. I specifically said "I am skeptical of the support" NOT "I am skeptical that you received any message".
My skepticism is specifically about the kind of "support" you'd receive from people who aren't even confident enough to back you in public. That's diffident at best, and won't help you to accomplish anything.

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Aside from Eloraam objecting, do YOU see anything wrong with this?

Eloraam objecting is all I need to know. She has the right... so yes, that makes this wrong.

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Honestly... do you think this would have done harm?

I think advocating the erosion of an author's intellectual property rights is the most harmful thing one can do on the Internet. I bolded that so that you are clear on it.

You are continuing to belabor a point and the only thing you've provided in defense is that you "want it", it would be "cool to have" , and "it wouldn't hurt". That's the sort of argument you hear froma child who wants a toy they can't have.

Obviously I am not an expert psychologist, But I do see Eloraam's stance on the issue. I will try to explain:

An RP to IC2 conversion mod is released, which, in this alternate universe, Eloraam does not do anything about. People use the mod. Huzzah! Everyone is happy!

Eloraam finally gets to work building a RP2 to IC2 conversion and intigrating it into Redpower. Huzzah! Except..... now there's a problem.

There is no longer a blank slate to work with. Someone already presented their idea in the form of a mod, which, consciously or unconsciously, has pre-colored people's expectations. Now one of two things will happen:

A: Eloraam's system is remarkably similar to this subject mod. Sunnova cheese biscuit! Miss Eloraam stole immibis's work without credit!

B: Eloraam's system is radically different to the subject mod. People who have already used the mod cry foul because they were used to converting energy one way, and now there's a radically different way of using it.

Although these are not huge problems, if one already has plans for the energy systems, why put people through that annoyance, or go through the annoyance yourself? Especially since these are the same people who keep forgetting what those 'alpha' and 'beta' tags mean.

Quote from Saul_Goode

Be honest with yourselves... would you like to see a mod converting Blu<>EU ? Eloraams stance on her license aside, do you see anything wrong with someone taking the long way? ie: doing it without the aid of an official RP2 API? Aside from Eloraam objecting, do YOU see anything wrong with this? Do YOU really think that the future direction of RedPower2 development would have been influenced by this submod.

Honestly... do you think this would have done harm?

I would be in jail if I tried to do everything I would 'like' to do in life.

....

I won't elaborate.

(Edit: I got ninja'd by Mr. Hunter, so none of my post has any of his context in it.)

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I would have... anyone else? ... ... ... ... anyone?.... ... .. . . somebody? Oh, hey, someone in the back... No?... oh... that was a sneeze?

Hmm... of course I would like it. But I don't need it. I don't really know what I should convert.

Sorters and Retriever use so few energy that's it's not worth converting. Just place a thermopile or some solars nearby. The only thing that eats power is the furnace, but why not just use the electric-furnace from IC2? They are exactly the same (well if the converter has the right values).

So converting blutricity to EU... well with water-gens you have endless 2 EU/t on a really small price, why bother with Blutricity?

There is one rather small part of the conversation that makes it at least a little bit usefull. It's the nether. You can't place water and you can't use solars. So using the thermopile is a little bit difficult and you are done to carrying batteries with you. On the other side... there's not much to sort. And you can easily build most mechanisms using filters.

I'm quite saddened by Elo doing this truthfully. Squashing addon development is no way to treat your fans, whether it contained your source or not. It was done to foster development and cross-play between mods, not to cause any harm.

Quote from Shadowclaimer

I'm quite saddened by Elo doing this truthfully. Squashing addon development is no way to treat your fans, whether it contained your source or not. It was done to foster development and cross-play between mods, not to cause any harm.

At the end of the day, making an addon to a mod is still an infringement of said mod creators rights unless they have been given explicit permission to do so. No matter what you or anyone else say is going to ever change that fact unless the intellectual property rights change.

Quote from pureaura

At the end of the day, making an addon to a mod is still an infringement of said mod creators rights unless they have been given explicit permission to do so. No matter what you or anyone else say is going to ever change that fact unless the intellectual property rights change.

What rights? You guys are aware those little "copyrights" people paste at the bottom of their posts aren't legally binding correct? Technically someone could up and rip IC2 and repost it somewhere else under a slightly different name and Al couldn't do anything about it except kindly request it be taken down. We don't own squat about our mods, artwork gets stolen daily, code gets stolen constantly, there is no protection for modders.

Basically all this guy did was make a mod for a mod, its no different than us including modified Notch classes in our mod. He included modified RP classes in his mod. We don't have Notch's express permission to release his code yet we do anyway everyday? Its hypocritical to think that this guy did anything different than Elo has done a thousand times.

I'm just afraid this is sounding like FlowerChild all over again.