Discussion about conversion mods.

  • I recant the geo generator statement, Fenix is correct, they both do 20. I though there was another difference but I could be wrong and since the MC forum is down I can't check right now. Either way the mkIIs could also be changed now to make them useful again.The geo example was bad but the point still stands. Why would I use only 1 conversion mod when 2 can do it better?


    He didn't ask to post it, I get that. It was pulled because he didn't ask, I get that. The real debate is why he wouldn't be given permission now to do so. (or anybody really)


    I also don't want to wait for her conversion like we have waited for her to add chicken bone's hooks for wireless redstone. If that's the case we may not get the ability to do so for a while, WRCBE is still on 1.8 beta. Nothing against her, she just has a lot on her plate here and a 3rd party conversion mod wouldn't effect her plans anyway. The geo generator thing proves that, they are appearently obsolete now, but how did that damage IC?


    This discusion is more about her than IC related. Might be better to bring it over to her thread/blog...


    Edit: Alb beat me too it lol.

  • If it's not about competition then why can there be ONLY one Blu<>EU converter (hers)?


    Because it's HER mod and HER prerogative. She doesn't need to justify or explain her decision.


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    why is it OK for someone to do something she's not planning and it's not OK to do something she is planning?


    The answer is already in the question. Why would or should she let someone do that?


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    Having a license is fine if you need to protect your work, Eloraam didn't need to protect her work here.


    Considering that someone decompiled her code and released an unauthorized add-on without her knowledge or consent, I'd say she does need to protect her work after all.


    Don't be angry at Eloraam for not letting people copy the answers off her test paper. If you don't want other people deciding what you can and can't release, the answer is simple - do your own thing. Don't base your work off someone else's.

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

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    (1) - But nobody is fiddling with her works here, if anything it's a question of purity. RP purists wouldn't have to install the mod, and can play the way Eloraam wants them to play. It's a question of options for the people that want to play differently that Eloraam's 'plans' would allow. Or maybe just want to use her mod, but can't because certain features because she hasn't fully implemented her plans. If this mod would have been allowed to go forward, the we would be able to use it to build our current system up. Immibis' mod could be a PLACEHOLDER for Eloraams' later implementation. Or just until the Blutric system is more fleshed out in general. Immibis' mod would allow us to use the IC2 power system to supplement Eloraams' system until she can build her's out a bit more.


    (1) She already have her energy net, and her machines dont use such huge amounts of energy that would justify having a converter Feeding Excesive amounts of energy to her machines in the first place.

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    (2) - ModPacks would be another acceptable use of license enforcement. ModPacks are using her mod in it's entirety without permission. The modpacks CONTAIN her code in it's entirety. Immibis' sub-mod had nothing but changes and original material.

    (2) Not every modpack have douches or dicks behind them. Amco its the example of person making modpacks the legal way, ASKING PERMISSION.


    (3) Yeah support is given for each developer, and once again we keep falling into this, permission must be given by said developer to make anything that requires of his/her mod to work (Most of the time, if said permission isnt granted already in his/her license agreement as long as you follow the rules they provide). You fail to realize that Immibis "Sub-Mod" Would be totally useless without any of the RP2 Core Files, simple as that. So in fact Immibis is actually using her code.


    (4) Every mod may come from the same game, Minecraft. Every mod has the liberty to decompile and modify the source of minecraft for the purpose of modding (With a few limitations, could not find the license), But after that it stop being Minecraft/Mojang Territory and becomes each individual modder territory, Some dont have licenses, some use generic fair use licenses, some make their own license. Fact is most Modders should have a license attached to their mods it protects them from things like stealing and plagiarism. Buildcraft have a full blown Open Source License so you can pretty much do whatever you want with a lot of freedom to do so. Industrial craft has its own license, that gives you the ability to modify the IC2 Source as long as you dont make public your modifications and in the case you make new stuff that isnt in the core, you are allowed to make it public within this forum Addon Subforum, but you are only allowed to post the new and modificated files (If you havent read it, its right at the end of the first post, after copyright), and Eloraam as decided to vouch for a closed source license in where You may download the mods she provides to use and play, if you want to do anything else with it, you have to ask her first. (The full license is in page 2).


    If you take the moment to read the IC2 Licence and the RedPower2 License you will notice that, in his license gives you a white card in modding his files AS LONG AS YOU ONLY PUBLISH THEM IN THIS FORUM AND ONLY IF YOU PLAN TO ADD SOMETHING NEW TO THE TABLE, no need for asking too much permision, those are Albaka Rules.


    Eloraam rules says perfectly clear that if you want to do ANYTHING with her code you must first ASK PERMISSION. Plain and simple.


    So far the only thing you have managed to proof its that eloraam exercise a strict closed door policy with her Source Code and nothing else. Something that is perfectly understandable. That the minecraft community thrive on sharing and such should not be reason enough to simply pass over her head and do whatever you want with her code.

    EDIT:

    On your first point that geogenerator was made to fulfill a need, and that was to make buildcraft liquid pipes to connect to it, since its already integrated there is really no need to make a new funtion for that generator since its purpose its already fullfilled (Remember there are things like Balance Issues).


    The reason was given multiple times already, Eloraam didnt want anything messing with her Development ideas since the converter was the next thing on her list.


    She wants to implement the converters her own way without the opinions of other people using her mod to be influenced by a 3rd party modification, me thinks.


    I rather avoid that, eloraam and the thread in minecraft forum already put the topic to rest, we havent because Saul just keep adding coal to the fire (And me that keeps doing the same i guess >.<)


  • Consider that the alleged "self-serving" individual is one of the driving forces behind Forge in the first place - without which, you wouldn't enjoy the level of cross-compatiblility that allows you to use these mods in conjunction with one another.


    "Forge" and "self-serving" are mutually exclusive. She doesn't have to do anything to make her mod play well with others - but instead, she not only makes sure an API exists for that, but also that other developers are able to use it to make their mods work with each other.


    Seems to me that the "selfish" attitude here is the lack of gratitude for what she's done for modding in general.

    There's the problem right there. She's doing pretty much all the development of Forge right now. So anything that she feels is needed for her mod is added to a community API. For example, eloraam added a feature into forge that allows torchs to be added to all her partial blocks. That feature means that several MC base classes have to be modified. Adding that into the main forge release means that whenever forge needs to be updated that's one more thing that has to be updated.


    Any mod that doesn't use forge looks like this. Minecraft get's updated. MCP get's updated modloader gets updated. Mod gets updated.


    With forge you add in forge get's updated before the mod get's updated.


    It states right in the licensing of forge that

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    You have the right to copy the forge, and to put it straight in your mods distribution. What the license requires you to do is to provide the sources of the forge that you're using. If you're not doing any modification, just pointing to this page is fine. If you do, you will need to publish your own modifications. Please have a look at the license for more details and feel free to ask any questions on this thread.


    What that means is that eloraam could be adding a forge download in her mod with whatever additions she wants. Providing that she makes the sources available. The main API should only have the bare necessities required for minecraft modding not all these additions.

  • Nothing is stopping anyone from doing the ONE thing that would actually address any of these complaints:


    Make a mod that does what you want it to, from scratch, without relying on someone else's code.


    It's essentially how RedPower started, and part of the reason people got behind the concept of the Forge API.


    There's all this talk of Eloraam allegedly suppressing competition, but there's no actual competition coming out of this discussion - merely people who want to use Eloraam's code to make "their own" add-on.


    Why aren't we seeing people doing their own thing, instead?

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

  • Hmm... the problem is this would cause combatibility issues. If she makes additions to her mods in some baseclasses, this base-classes could not be touched by forge again. But there are many base-classes with multiple modifications which are used by different mods.


    And most development is done by LexManos, not Eloraam. It was only in the beginning where the first Hooks got created that eloraam did much work, since her mod uses many hooks. But meanwhile it is maintained primarly by LexManos although she still helps out how to use forge and may add in hooks she needs. And as development goes on many mods start to use some of the RP-Hooks. If I remember right Alblaka is some kind of "purist" and tries to mod without touching base-classes, but lately the RP-part of forge shrinks compared to most other things inside the API, because there wasn't much needed for RP lately but the MCL and some other small things used by many mods (even IC2) got implemented.


    Actually my Update-schedule is: MC update -> Modloader/ModloaderMP -> Forge -> Most mods -> waiting for IC2. So since IC2 has a very large amount of beta-testing going on it is usually the latest mod to update, forge is rather fast and not everything actually does need updating.


    Actually if people want to do something useful they could think about a unified energy-net, that makes it possible for a mod to store a transformation-value inside a config, which could be accessed using forge. So you create an internal value named charcoal-Eq (because the transformator equals over the value of charcoal/coal). For IC2 this value would be 0,00025 since 4000 EU are 1 piece of Coal. Over this value you could transform RP Watts, IC2 EU and BC MJ. RP would need an additional transformer to split the Watt-Value into Amps and Volt.


    And... well Eloraam stated that such a conversion is something she might look into, but this needs a lot of thinking because there is no vanilla Energy which could be used as some kind of base-value, and some mods handle different sources... different. Even if IC2 equals BC via Charcoal, they also both need the same values for lava. So you need to decide on an energy-output, that equals over all mods.


    Actually IC2 is the only Mod that has a large array of "energy"-generating-devices. So most transformations work IC2 -> something else, because people like to power everything with solars. But then again with a wrong transformation-rate IC2-Solars will be obsolete since RP once are much cheaper and easy to connect. And that's the basic part eloraam cares about. She has a machine named pulverizer. Sounds much like the macerator, but in favor of IC2 she doesn't make it double-ore output, although the machine mainly works the same, but will use it for her chemicals addon.


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    This discusion is more about her than IC related. Might be better to bring it over to her thread/blog...

    Well... no better not bring this up in her thread or the blog. First her rules are not part of a discussion. They are her rules. Second the only thing that could be achieved this way is to annoy her. Which will only decrease her willingness to approve such things further.


    The main problem is that she gets requests for this or that many times a day. That's also why she changed her position regarding modpacks. Basically she allowed redpower inside Modpacks, if proper credit is given (much like alblaka). But since she gets more then 10 requests about this per day and the only thing most modpacks do is stuffing all downloads into one she sees no need to approve more modpacks (...well and guess where people go if they encounter an error while using the modpack). And actually the same is true for decompiling her code. Actually there existed people who decompiled her code modified it and asked why things don't work properly. So if she says no, that's not because she want to punch people right into their faces, but it is because she has experienced some problems with such things earlier.


  • I don't even know where you are going with this... A mod to convert from RP2 to IC2 is going to have to rely on BOTH Eloraams' code AND Alblakas' code. AND Mojangs' code... You seem to conveniently forget that RedPower relies on Mojangs' code. ...please don't bring legality and her license back into this point. One focus at a time, please.


    No competition from this discussion... sure. OK. But the conversation *IS* about competition. Sorry, but I still feel it's been proven as I've not seen any responses in this thread that have discredited my arguments to that effect. Eloraam has stated herself that she will not allow Blutricity conversion mods, in her own words "...specifically disallowed any conversion mods...", then a later statement from her confirms that she would probably allow a conversion mod that she "...has made no plans for...". If it's not about competition then explain the logic behind that. Her own words prove that her concerns lay with the plans that SHE HAS MADE. She will allow a ThaumCraft conversion that she hasn't planned for, yet she won't allow BC or IC2 that she HAS planned for. If it's not about competition then lay out an argument that can change my mind and prove me wrong. Until you do that it will remain as an non-discredited accusation. Seriously, if anyone can do this then I'd really like to see it. I'm that confident in the case I've laid out.


    Own thing instead? Maybe it would be easier for this to happen if they were given a chance to learn and get better? Look at what SirSengir and Krapht have done building off of someone elses' work. Forestry is very nearly a mod in and of itself, if BuildCraft wasn't such a large part of Forestry it WOULD be a mod of it's own. I don't think Sengir would have been capable of the current incarnation of Forestry had he not had a chance to build his sub-mod and learn through making his mod better. Krapht has made an incredibly complex mod that would have detracted from BuildCrafts' development if SpaceToad tried to do it all himself. Not that SpaceToad would have ever gone that direction...


    If Eloraam was a little less restrictive, and would allow others' a little more freedom then maybe she could get more of the heavy-lifting done. If, as I stated before, she allowed immibis' mod to continue forward then she could have moved her own converter down in priority a bit leaving room sooner for the stuff that SHE needs to do. Maybe she could finally get around to the changes ChickenBones needs implemented so that he can update his wireless redstone past 1.8.1. Instead she insists on doing everything herself, her own way. Thereby hindering other developers, thereby hindering the community as a whole (at least the part of the community that uses those mods).

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.


  • No competition from this discussion... sure. OK. But the conversation *IS* about competition. Sorry, but I still feel it's been proven as I've not seen any responses in this thread that have discredited my arguments to that effect. Eloraam has stated herself that she will not allow Blutricity conversion mods, in her own words "...specifically disallowed any conversion mods...", then a later statement from her confirms that she would probably allow a conversion mod that she "...has made no plans for...". If it's not about competition then explain the logic behind that. Her own words prove that her concerns lay with the plans that SHE HAS MADE. She will allow a ThaumCraft conversion that she hasn't planned for, yet she won't allow BC or IC2 that she HAS planned for. If it's not about competition then lay out an argument that can change my mind and prove me wrong. Until you do that it will remain as an non-discredited accusation. Seriously, if anyone can do this then I'd really like to see it. I'm that confident in the case I've laid out.


    Well... this would defeat her plans about releasing an API later. With said API it would be quite easy to create a power-converter without needing to decompile her code. The point is she don't want a conversion to exist before she did it first. RP is rather unfinished and she don't like people to mess around in unfinished code. And the reason for this is also quite simple. If there is another similar thing out there first, people will ask her why her version is different and eventually inferior.


    And actually she knows how to create the values for her energy-net out of a single value used by IC2. Well... actually RP can't even handle most of IC2-Energy, so a energy-converter is somewhat useless. 100V is about less then you use at home, about 3/4 Solars would power your microwave-oven at home. Even between 4EU/t and 32EU/t which are the smallest IC2-Pakets are quite different. Solars in RP produce 2A at 100V. About 4 of them would create 4 EU/t or better 8 of them since they are cheaper. Producing 32 EU/t would be... well it would mean sending 128A through the blue-alloy-wires. Which will cause line-loss in the range of 35%, which just means you need more Amps to equal 32EU/t. Without her line-conditioner and other machines it would be hard to create useful setups for transformation (of course you could transform a lot of small packages... but then again why not just create the IC2-Gens). They other way around is more difficult since no machine can send 4EU/t and transforming larger packets blow your blue-alloy-wire (they don't "blow" actually but they are way above there capacity causing terrible loss).


    So there isn't even a usefull way of transforming since RP only uses quite low energy-values now. If someone creates such a thing he just constructs some facts that are around there. So in my calculation 2 RP-Solars = 1 IC-Solar basically this means that 1 EU = 400W (since RP-Solars produce 200W and IC2 produces 1EU/t). If I would create a conversion mod first, people would take this value as a given fact. And there comes the point of asking. If I would have asked her, and shared my oppinion about transformation with her, we might have noticed that we share the used values, which might even caused her to approve it, since a transformation-mod which uses the exact same values and isn't useable later, since the code gets changed might not conflict with her plans, but random-conversion-mod might do this.


    And even if she doesn't allow it (well she wrote done the parts after this happened), so there is no proof that she might not have approved it before, but it's the same with modpacks she disallowed it, after many modpacks got released which doesn't had her permission.



  • For the record, parts of your post and some of your points were VERY hard to decipher... What is 'well she wrote done the parts after this happened' supposed to mean? I'm assuming 'done' = 'down'?


    (1) - Not if she chooses not to include energy hooks in the API. When she releases an API people are still restricted to using only her API and the hooks she provides in it. If she leaves out hooks needed for energy conversion and we're right back where we started. Not to mention that with everything currently on her plate we will most likely see an Official Mojang API before we see a RP2 API and we all know how long the wait for a Mojang API has been (still is).


    (2) - How do you figure? She's already shown that this is about IC2 and BC energy. If it was about 'before she did it first' then the same rules would apply to the ThaumCraft converter that she has already said that she would probably allow due to "...not having made plans for that." If it was about 'unfinished code' then there would be no question about a TC conversion being allowed- It would be disallowed the same as a IC or BC conversion.


    (3) - You're over-complicating the programming methinks... This is fictional, programmed energy and can be programmed to behave as needed and later can be tweaked as needed. If it's a question of packet-size then build a buffer into the converter so the programming can balance input and output. This is fictional energy and will behave the way it's programmed to behave. It's the programming that says 'If I take in 100EU then I will output ?5? BU'... or whatever factor it is set to follow. It's not like we are talking about real-world plug converters like you have to use when you go international.


    (4) - Which is the same thing that Eloraam will be doing once she gets around to her own conversion plans. Constructing values that are around what she decides, which is fine for her converter, but needs to have no real bearing on someone elses' converter... As I've said before, Eloraam releases her converter and if she does it fairly then nobody will want (or need) to install an addon to achieve the functionality already included. Like I said before, including a config for the converter would alleviate a lot of the "balance" concerns.


    (5) - She wouldn't have... Again... as she herself has stated (and I'm getting tired of quoting) "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that." She has her own plans, yours would have been denied as well due to her having her own plans in mind for 'that'.


    (6) - And what, pray-tell, makes you think she might have approved it before?

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • For the record, parts of your post and some of your points were VERY hard to decipher... What is 'well she wrote done the parts after this happened' supposed to mean? I'm assuming 'done' = 'down'?


    Well... this was between some things I had to do at work... it was supposed to be down, not done. Basically she had changed the whole OP of her thread and stated afterwards that she doesn't allow this. So she just wrote the rule against it after people used her code without permission (ComputerCraft in this case). She allowed the use because they had spoken with each other, but disallowed it later, since Computers are on her own Todo-List.


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    (1) - Not if she chooses not to include energy hooks in the API. When she releases an API people are still restricted to using only her API and the hooks she provides in it. If she leaves out hooks needed for energy conversion and we're right back where we started. Not to mention that with everything currently on her plate we will most likely see an Official Mojang API before we see a RP2 API and we all know how long the wait for a Mojang API has been (still is).


    Hmm... every machine that uses Blutricity needs an energy-hook. So she could create an API which doesn't allow you to use/create Blutricity... doesn't makes much sense does it?


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    (2) - How do you figure? She's already shown that this is about IC2 and BC energy. If it was about 'before she did it first' then the same rules would apply to the ThaumCraft converter that she has already said that she would probably allow due to "...not having made plans for that." If it was about 'unfinished code' then there would be no question about a TC conversion being allowed- It would be disallowed the same as a IC or BC conversion.


    No... she never plans a TC-Conversion. And the difference is she allows it to the creator of TC, not a third person.


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    (3) - You're over-complicating the programming methinks... This is fictional, programmed energy and can be programmed to behave as needed and later can be tweaked as needed. If it's a question of packet-size then build a buffer into the converter so the programming can balance input and output. This is fictional energy and will behave the way it's programmed to behave. It's the programming that says 'If I take in 100EU then I will output ?5? BU'... or whatever factor it is set to follow. It's not like we are talking about real-world plug converters like you have to use when you go international.


    It should behave according to the original plans. The problem is that a converter could create situations which are not meant to be created by normal means and cause bugs.

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    (4) - Which is the same thing that Eloraam will be doing once she gets around to her own conversion plans. Constructing values that are around what she decides, which is fine for her converter, but needs to have no real bearing on someone elses' converter... As I've said before, Eloraam releases her converter and if she does it fairly then nobody will want (or need) to install an addon to achieve the functionality already included. Like I said before, including a config for the converter would alleviate a lot of the "balance" concerns.


    The point is to turn this whole thing around. If someone already installed a converter, why should he bother using the other one? Not that this is something of her concern, because she already mentioned that most people will use the BC-Crafting machine, because it is cheaper. But it will provoke questions like "why don't you use the values this addon uses?" and there are a lot of people that aren't even able to solve an ID-Conflict or notice that they have a too old version of forge, yet to expect modding a config-file to change the values of a transformation is too optimistic.


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    (5) - She wouldn't have... Again... as she herself has stated (and I'm getting tired of quoting) "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that." She has her own plans, yours would have been denied as well due to her having her own plans in mind for 'that'.


    (6) - And what, pray-tell, makes you think she might have approved it before?


    These two obviously belong together. She first disapproved the modification to ComputerCraft too. But she changed her mind after she had spoken with the developer and some other people who thought it would be nice to be able to use ComputerCraft with bundled cables. So she allowed it. It's not that you can't talk with her, but if you don't even try you lose even the smallest chance of approval. I don't say that she would have approved it. But I say that she at least might have thought about it and maybe she would have allowed it for the time until her own conversation would be finished, and of course she could have influenced it to be something she could approved.

  • I don't even know where you are going with this... A mod to convert from RP2 to IC2 is going to have to rely on BOTH Eloraams' code AND Alblakas' code. AND Mojangs' code... You seem to conveniently forget that RedPower relies on Mojangs' code. ...please don't bring legality and her license back into this point. One focus at a time, please.


    It's abundantly clear that you can't see where I'm going with this - because you're "focusing" on the wrong aspect of it.
    I'm not talking about legality and license. I'm talking about originality.


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    Own thing instead? Maybe it would be easier for this to happen if they were given a chance to learn and get better? Look at what SirSengir and Krapht have done building off of someone elses' work.


    One needn't be a copycat to improve one's skills and technique. And you can hardly compare Immibis' derivative work to what Forestry and especially Logistics Pipes have introduced.
    Although Forestry is best used with BuildCraft, it can stand on its own, unlike a power converter that relies on two mods to be of any use.
    Krapht's stuff is probably the most original and useful add-on in the history of tech mods. It needs BuildCraft but it's completely original and very elegant.
    They're great add-ons, and poorly chosen examples to try and defend your point.


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    If Eloraam was a little less restrictive, and would allow others' a little more freedom then maybe she could get more of the heavy-lifting done.


    Perhaps that's true - but it wouldn't be done her way. Whether you like that or not, that's been the driving force behind her creative vision from the beginning.
    She's trying to make the mod that she wants to play. If you like what she's doing, great. If not, then RedPower's not for you, I guess.
    But what she's not willing to do is to compromise what she wants to deliver more of what you want. When other types of artists make that compromise, we accuse them of "selling out".


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    Maybe she could finally get around to the changes ChickenBones needs implemented so that he can update his wireless redstone past 1.8.1. Instead she insists on doing everything herself, her own way. Thereby hindering other developers, thereby hindering the community as a whole (at least the part of the community that uses those mods).


    Immibis' add-on didn't free up time she could have used to add those Forge hooks - but you can be sure that the time she had to spend defending her work could have been used in that fashion.
    So I counter that Immibis unauthorized release actually hindered the chance of her completing what ChickenBones needs.

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

  • One other thing to keep in mind... a VERY important thing...


    Antics like this do nothing more than sour Eloraam's interest in modding. Why should she put in the effort and share her work when people will abuse her generosity and act against her wishes?
    So it's entirely possible that defending unauthorized add-ons is just pounding a nail into RedPower's coffin. Without RedPower, Immibis' work is useless. So the people defending it are doing no one any favors.


    Is your position so important that you'd rather be "right" than have RedPower to play? Because if it is, don't expect me to stand behind you on it.


    Imagine what the game would be like without RedPower. Or say she decides that Forge was a bad idea, and the mods you currently use are no longer compatible with one another.
    Then take a good, hard look at what you're contributing to that possible outcome.

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

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    Maybe she could finally get around to the changes ChickenBones needs implemented so that he can update his wireless redstone past 1.8.1. Instead she insists on doing everything herself, her own way. Thereby hindering other developers, thereby hindering the community as a whole (at least the part of the community that uses those mods).


    Again, Eloraam is not a forge maintainer, but only a contributor. Everyone is able to add hooks to forge since it's an open-source project. Most things are done by LexManos though. Eloraam does work on Forge, but LexManos does the overall maintaining and obviously the porting.

  • Again, Eloraam is not a forge maintainer, but only a contributor. Everyone is able to add hooks to forge since it's an open-source project. Most things are done by LexManos though. Eloraam does work on Forge, but LexManos does the overall maintaining and obviously the porting.

    And technically, the father of forge is spacetoad. So if the decision of deleting forge ever comes (Not that i think it will), it will be Spacetoad who will make that decision and push the delete botton. Its the same with Risugame and Modloader, if she want she could delete it/stop updating and say "fuck you" to the comunity if they piss her, she has the right to do so and delete her source and most importantly FORBID anyone from ever use whatever they have of her source for update with a new version of minecraft, so if you want a new mod loader (In this hypotetical scenario), you would need to make one from SCRATCH.


    Just my 2 cents on this topic that i still say its just going in circles.


  • And technically, the father of forge is spacetoad. So if the decision of deleting forge ever comes (Not that i think it will), it will be Spacetoad who will make that decision and push the delete botton. Its the same with Risugame and Modloader, if she want she could delete it/stop updating and say "fuck you" to the comunity if they piss her, she has the right to do so and delete her source and most importantly FORBID anyone from ever use whatever they have of her source for update with a new version of minecraft, so if you want a new mod loader (In this hypotetical scenario), you would need to make one from SCRATCH.


    Just my 2 cents on this topic that i still say its just going in circles.


    Hmm... Forge is different. First SpaceToad and Eloraam are founding-members and both decided to start Forge together. So they are the parents (in this comparison spacetoad still is the father :P). Second Forge runs under an open-source licence which is some kind of one-way street. You can't make it private this easy. But well... nobody wants to do this.

  • I'm going to start this thread off by saying that last night and during todays' IC2 site downtime I took some time to 'educate myself a bit' on matter's that apply here... ...and it did NOTHING to cause me to doubt myself. Reinforces my opinion if nothing else... See, as part of my education I stumbled upon the back story of FlowerChild. The fact that FlowerChild left Forge pretty much for the same problem's with Eloraam as I've been trying to point out. That said...



    (1) - As this has been alluded to previously, I'll go ahead and address it now. I've been reluctant to because I know it won't gain me any friends... well, maybe like... 3.


    So... how would I feel if Eloraam packed up her mod and told us all to go to hell? Honestly, I'd view it as a child throwing a tantrum and taking her toys home with her. ...It would suck, she has some really cool toys to play with, but I'm sure we'd all get over it eventually (I mean, I would... I'm left to assume for the rest of you...). And who knows, maybe a new kid will move into the neighborhood with the same toys. A cooler, fairer and more willing to let us actually play with their toys kinda kid. Like I said, a child packing up her toys and throwing a tantrum.


    (2) - I don't expect you to stand behind me if I say the sky is blue. Pretty sure you'll be there to say it's teal.


    (3) - THE game, or MY game? THE game will still be the same. Minecraft will still be Minecraft... MY game?... pretty much the same. I'd miss the redstone wiring but that's about it. And if she left the 'scene' I'm pretty sure there'd be a new one of those along shortly.


    (4) - Forge is more than Eloraam. Forge is primarily maintained by LexManos these days, or so I hear. If nothing else the Mojang API should be along shortly.


    (5) - Now, with (1), (3) and (4) having been said... I'd really prefer it not come down to that... I'd prefer she modifies her attitude, plays nice and everyone lives happily ever after.


    (6) - You REALLLLLLY..... really, really, really don't want to talk originality after what I learned today. Just... trust me, you don't.


    (7) - IMMIBIS DIDN'T COPY ANYTHING... ELORAAM DOES NOT YET HAVE A POWER CONVERTER TO COPY.


    (8) - It was his first mod, again, give the kid a break.


    (9) - Only when taken out of the intended context. I was using them as examples of improvement when given the chance.


    (10) - But hers WOULD BE done her way once she got around to it. As I've said before... had she allowed immibis' it would not have prevented her from continuing with her planned converter. At All.


    (11) - And that's great... SHE wouldn't HAVE to install immibis' conversion mod if she doesn't want to. It's not like he was trying to get his version COMMITTED into RP2.


    (12) - Had she allowed the mod then there would have been no need for a defense. ChickenBones has been waiting since... I don't know when... sometime after 1.8.1, I doubt the three days this has been going on would have had any effect there. As far as the time she's spent defending herself... I've not seen anything here so that tells me that she's been defending herself against other people. Good to know I'm not the only dissenter.


    BlueHorazon wrote:

    Again, Eloraam is not a forge maintainer, but only a contributor. Everyone is able to add hooks to forge since it's an open-source project. Most things are done by LexManos though. Eloraam does work on Forge, but LexManos does the overall maintaining and obviously the porting.


    I'm going off of what it says in ChickenBones' EAQ on his MCF thread. It names Eloraam specifically.


    'BlueHorazon wrote:

    She allowed the use because they had spoken with each other, but disallowed it later, since Computers are on her own Todo-List.


    So what, first she allowed it but then retracted her earlier permission?


    'BlueHorazon wrote:

    No... she never plans a TC-Conversion. And the difference is she allows it to the creator of TC, not a third person.


    The comment that you are replying to there is a response to you saying that this is about her not liking people 'messing around with unfinished code' and I was saying that if it WAS about how complete the code is then her rules would have been across the board, Not stopping at where HER plans ended. If it was about the state of the code as you suggested then it would apply to a ThaumCraft converter same as it applies to BC and IC.


    BlueHorazon wrote:

    It should behave according to the original plans. The problem is that a converter could create situations which are not meant to be created by normal means and cause bugs.


    Again... Support comes from the maker of the (sub)mod and those 'situations' and bugs will be up to the converters' maker and the users of the conversion mod to sort. A conversion mod will not create issues for Eloraam or RP users that don't use the mod. It will only create issues for people that decide to install the mod. (aside from stupid users that go to the wrong place for their support issues- A problem no matter the mod or situation.)


    ::Continued Next Post::

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • And technically, the father of forge is spacetoad. So if the decision of deleting forge ever comes (Not that i think it will), it will be Spacetoad who will make that decision and push the delete botton. Its the same with Risugame and Modloader, if she want she could delete it/stop updating and say "fuck you" to the comunity if they piss her, she has the right to do so and delete her source and most importantly FORBID anyone from ever use whatever they have of her source for update with a new version of minecraft, so if you want a new mod loader (In this hypotetical scenario), you would need to make one from SCRATCH.


    Actually, Forge is completely Open-Source, only restrictions are that you have to provide the source of any changes you make. Someone could use Forge RIGHT NOW to make their own API, they'd just have to keep it Open-Source as well. Eloraam couldn't destroy Forge even if she wanted to.


    BlueHorazon wrote:

    (1) - If someone already installed a converter, why should he bother using the other one?
    (2) - Not that this is something of her concern, because she already mentioned that most people will use the BC-Crafting machine, because it is cheaper.
    (3) - But it will provoke questions like "why don't you use the values this addon uses?"
    (4) - and there are a lot of people that aren't even able to solve an ID-Conflict or notice that they have a too old version of forge
    (5) - yet to expect modding a config-file to change the values of a transformation is too optimistic.
    (6) - I don't say that she would have approved it. But I say that she at least might have thought about it and maybe she would have allowed it for the time until her own conversation would be finished, and of course she could have influenced it to be something she could approved.


    (1) - Because it would require a RP2 update, which in turn would require updates for the sub-mod. That's a great time for players to ask themselves... 'Do I still need this sub-mod?' Not installing the sub-mod would save at least one DisplayID and the RP2 version would likely just work better all around.


    (2) - I'm not all that familiar with her 'Project Table', but why would she introduce something into her mod this early (I say early considering everything else she says is planned that is still left to do.) that she knows few people will use because another mod has a better version? Just saying... with everything she has planned. Especially considering the "-It’s not nice to copy other peoples work." agreement mentioned in Alblaka's Blog. I don't want to get into a discussion about copying. (Actually I kinda do... I've got a single (only need one) image already worked up in my mind for that one, But let's not, K?)


    (3) - 'As far as 'why don't you use the values'... 'because those are the conversion rates that I choose for my converter'. Do the three BC<>IC2 use the same methods and values? Who knows... Maybe Eloraam can find away to make her version THAT much better, that much more appealing to the users to use. Maybe a single RP2 machine that can convert ALL types of energy. She's a bright girl, I'm sure she can figure a way to motivate people to use hers over others. Ya, know... other than the way that led to this.


    (4) - That's an issue that has nothing to do with this subject... That's simply an issue with Minecraft itself and should be less of an issue once we get an official Mojang API.


    (5) - And yes, a config file WOULD solve the problems with questions of balance... If a player feels things are unbalanced by the defaults then they can change it themselves. You can't bring general computer illiteracy and the habits' of 12 year-olds into this and expect it to stand. Totally out of context with this discussion. But like I said, the problem here isn't with sub-mods it's with Minecraft not having a user friendly method of managing these things yet. In it's current incarnation, under the scope of a 'typical' game company, Minecraft is more of an 'in-house proof-of-concept' than it is a finished commercial product. The only reason 1.0 got the 1.0 designation is because it was a milestone for Mojang more than Minecraft.


    (6) - And the way that she stated her objection in immibis' release thread completely discredits this idea. I said last time I was tired of quoting this, yet here I am quoting it again... THIS is going in circles.... "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."


    'I've specifically' = A decision she has already made.
    'disallowed any' = All inclusive, Any=All. Not some. ALL.
    'I have my own plans in mind for that.' = It's not about unfinished code. It's about HER plans.


    If it was truly about anything else she wouldn't have stated things the way she did. If it was about unfinished code she would have said 'The code is not ready for that.' At the end. If it was about permission she would have simply stated 'I was not asked for permission.'


    If it was about anything else, then that would have been the reason she gave in her 'TakeDown Post.' But it wasn't about those things, so those weren't the reason's she gave.

    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  • (6) - And the way that she stated her objection in immibis' release thread completely discredits this idea. I said last time I was tired of quoting this, yet here I am quoting it again... THIS is going in circles.... "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."


    'I've specifically' = A decision she has already made.
    'disallowed any' = All inclusive, Any=All. Not some. ALL.
    'I have my own plans in mind for that.' = It's not about unfinished code. It's about HER plans.

    You forget that eloraam its a human, not a primitive version of skynet. She is allowed to change her mind OR her plans at any moment adapting herself to the situation at hand.


    Immibis Converter mod came out of nowhere, without permission whatsoever, and it was in her plans (if you could say it like that), that if should situation arise (When a Blue<->IC Converter appeared) she would do her possible to forbid futher publication of said converter.


    In Minecraft Forum RP2 thread SOMEONE (Not even the creator of thaum craft), asked if a thaumcraft Vis<->Blue converter would be possible, which eloraam responded that it would be possible, if the developer of thaum or someone close did it if permission where to be asked before hand, because she hasnt Thaumcraft compatibility in mind (Honestly thaumcraft its still not famous like the big technological 3, IC2/BC/RP2, so of course you cant blame Eloraam for skipping this mod althogether)


    I still stick with the opinion that is all a matter of respect between fellow modders, the comunity should have little to do with this discussion.

  • Quote

    So what, first she allowed it but then retracted her earlier permission?


    No the approve for computercraft stayed but she disallowed further uses by other people. So ComputerCraft got her approvel even if the mod fiddles with her future plans, but he hasn't broken her rules because she didn't made things that clear first. It was some kind of grey area the ComputerCraft-Modder used, because he calls a RP-Function, but doesn't really depends upon her code (Obviously ComputerCraft runs without RP installed).


    Quote

    The comment that you are replying to there is a response to you saying that this is about her not liking people 'messing around with unfinished code' and I was saying that if it WAS about how complete the code is then her rules would have been across the board, Not stopping at where HER plans ended. If it was about the state of the code as you suggested then it would apply to a ThaumCraft converter same as it applies to BC and IC.


    There is a great difference if you give some stuff to a random guy or another renown modder.


    Quote

    Again... Support comes from the maker of the (sub)mod and those 'situations' and bugs will be up to the converters' maker and the users of the conversion mod to sort. A conversion mod will not create issues for Eloraam or RP users that don't use the mod. It will only create issues for people that decide to install the mod. (aside from stupid users that go to the wrong place for their support issues- A problem no matter the mod or situation.)


    Would be nice if thinks would work this way. You would also expect that the creators of modpacks are the guys who get asked if problems arise. But people run straight to the threads of the large mods. If people have any problem with the tech-pack they go to the BC/RP thread even if the problem is a simple ID-Conflict, which is caused by one of the addons (Additional Pipes quite often). I see no reason why this addon should make any difference. Alblakas Luck is that he doesn't even use the MCF so if people write stupid errors there he would not even notice.


    Quote

    (1) - Because it would require a RP2 update, which in turn would require updates for the sub-mod. That's a great time for players to ask themselves... 'Do I still need this sub-mod?' Not installing the sub-mod would save at least one DisplayID and the RP2 version would likely just work better all around.


    Again your not entirely right. If an Addon calls a function which stays the same it might function even with another version. Only MC-Updates will screw it. Eloraam will have to purposely destroy the addon, if she doesn't do so accidently.


    Quote

    (2) - I'm not all that familiar with her 'Project Table', but why would she introduce something into her mod this early (I say early considering everything else she says is planned that is still left to do.) that she knows few people will use because another mod has a better version? Just saying... with everything she has planned. Especially considering the "-It’s not nice to copy other peoples work." agreement mentioned in Alblaka's Blog. I don't want to get into a discussion about copying. (Actually I kinda do... I've got a single (only need one) image already worked up in my mind for that one, But let's not, K?)


    The project-table isn't automated crafting. It's just a crafting table with a chest for creating her logic-cells (because you could store the parts inside the crafting-table). Her automated crafting-device will work completly different than BCs and is a little harder to set up and needs energy. This is the reason why people will most likely use the "magic"-BC-Craftingtable. Copying function... well it's necessary. Tubes and Pipes copied each other in many ways (well Kraphts Pipes are mainly the same as tubes, where the retriever adds function Kraphts Pipes have etc.). SpaceToad is fine with this since his Pipes aren't a core element of his mod, but he needs them for his building-devices (he said something like this). He also just copied the conveyor-belt and made it more comfortable.


    Quote

    (3) - 'As far as 'why don't you use the values'... 'because those are the conversion rates that I choose for my converter'. Do the three BC<>IC2 use the same methods and values? Who knows... Maybe Eloraam can find away to make her version THAT much better, that much more appealing to the users to use. Maybe a single RP2 machine that can convert ALL types of energy. She's a bright girl, I'm sure she can figure a way to motivate people to use hers over others. Ya, know... other than the way that led to this.


    Exactly this is the point. It put's pressure on her. Her solutions normally aren't that easy and most likely this would be true for the converter too.


    Quote

    (4) - That's an issue that has nothing to do with this subject... That's simply an issue with Minecraft itself and should be less of an issue once we get an official Mojang API.


    I believe it if I see it. ID-Conflicts will still arise and make up about 50% of all errors. But this point is described above.


    Quote

    (5) - And yes, a config file WOULD solve the problems with questions of balance... If a player feels things are unbalanced by the defaults then they can change it themselves. You can't bring general computer illiteracy and the habits' of 12 year-olds into this and expect it to stand. Totally out of context with this discussion. But like I said, the problem here isn't with sub-mods it's with Minecraft not having a user friendly method of managing these things yet. In it's current incarnation, under the scope of a 'typical' game company, Minecraft is more of an 'in-house proof-of-concept' than it is a finished commercial product. The only reason 1.0 got the 1.0 designation is because it was a milestone for Mojang more than Minecraft.


    Of course I can. The normal process is this:


    Someone want to disable RP-Ores -> He goes to the RP-Thread to say that it is stupid that there are more then one copper etc. -> He gots directed to the config -> He edits it and damages it by doing this -> He goes again to the thread -> He got the hint that notepad is stupid


    So basically people don't care about configs. Some don't even know where to find them. If they would just change the values all would be fine. But they don't know it, even if it is totally obviously and explained many times. I hang around a lot in the RP and BtW-Threads and it is rediculous. Exspecially BtWs Hardcore-Bucket-Mode which is set to on in BtB is something people don't get.

    Quote


    (6) - And the way that she stated her objection in immibis' release thread completely discredits this idea. I said last time I was tired of quoting this, yet here I am quoting it again... THIS is going in circles.... "I've specifically disallowed any energy-conversion mod for Blutricity. I have my own plans in mind for that."


    'I've specifically' = A decision she has already made.
    'disallowed any' = All inclusive, Any=All. Not some. ALL.
    'I have my own plans in mind for that.' = It's not about unfinished code. It's about HER plans.


    If you apply this words to ComputerCraft she would had to disallow it too. Decisions are made based on certain informations (a combination of arguments and experience). So different informations could change a decision, but if you don't talk to her you cannot provide different informations which might change her decision in your favor.


    She changes her plans and decisions regularly. She stepped back on the decision to not allow user-specified logic-tiles and reverted her statement to "I will think about it", she thought about new logic-gates generally although she gave out her 3-Block-Rule.


    So if people discuss things with her and give her arguments to evaluate her decisions again she might do it. That's nothing to expect, but without asking you will never know.