Discussion about conversion mods.

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    Basically all this guy did was make a mod for a mod, its no different than us including modified Notch classes in our mod. He included modified RP classes in his mod. We don't have Notch's express permission to release his code yet we do anyway everyday? Its hypocritical to think that this guy did anything different than Elo has done a thousand times.

    There is a fundamental difference in this, Notch is aware of mods but he has allowed them to exist, Eloraam wasnt even aware of the fact someone made that conversion. so she took down that addon. Is it so hard to understand that this is simply a case of disrespect to eloraam work? He did what he did without even discussing/talking with Eloraam about it, when she has expressed quite a lot to not do such things. That the copyright are trash and useless? Maybe, but that still doesnt give you the right to disrespect the developer, which will only making him/her to have a sour mood and consider either stop to developing his/her mod, or simply stop sharing his work with the public.

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    What rights? You guys are aware those little "copyrights" people paste at the bottom of their posts aren't legally binding correct?


    Aside from the fact that they actually are, I find it amazingly hypocritical that you complain about how Eloraam "squashes" someone else, and then proceed to try and justify trampling all over her rights in such a childish fashion.


    Quote

    We don't have Notch's express permission to release his code yet we do anyway everyday? Its hypocritical to think that this guy did anything different than Elo has done a thousand times.


    You don't even make mods, do you? You have no idea what's needed to make a mod, but you think if you word it that way, it'll support your ridiculous postition. And if you did make a mod and someone misused it or stole itl, you'd be the first one in here crying about it.
    As I stated before, Eloraam's mod does not violate Mojang's license. If it did, they would have shut her down and locked the thread sometime before page 885, don't you think?
    If, as you allege, they are aware but "turning a blind eye", then guess what? That means they are permitting its use. But how you make the leap from that, to saying that this remove's Eloraam's rights to protect her work... I can't even begin to see where your brain makes that connection.


    Your argument basically comes down to "I'll do what I want" and "Other people do it, why can't we?" Sounds like the sort of thing I'd hear from a bratty kid that hasn't been spanked often enough. Your arguments are not helping anyone here.

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    What rights? You guys are aware those little "copyrights" people paste at the bottom of their posts aren't legally binding correct? Technically someone could up and rip IC2 and repost it somewhere else under a slightly different name and Al couldn't do anything about it except kindly request it be taken down. We don't own squat about our mods, artwork gets stolen daily, code gets stolen constantly, there is no protection for modders.


    Basically all this guy did was make a mod for a mod, its no different than us including modified Notch classes in our mod. He included modified RP classes in his mod. We don't have Notch's express permission to release his code yet we do anyway everyday? Its hypocritical to think that this guy did anything different than Elo has done a thousand times.


    I'm just afraid this is sounding like FlowerChild all over again.


    Notch has expressed on Twitter that he doesn't mind people making mods so long as the program in it's entirety is not distributed, or that there is any attempt to circumvent the 'piracy protection' that Minecraft has.


    Additionally, As I see it, the problem with enforcing copyrights in this case has more to do with the fact there are no monetary damages able to be given out in a court of law, due to the fact that mod authors are releasing their software without charge.


    Do you have an argument that consists of something more then 'In for a penny, in for a pound?'



    (Edit: Stop ninjaing me, Headhunter! :p But you bring up a good point. Copyright law, at least in the US, is 'Enforce it, or lose it.' That is why companies have to be so agressive when it comes to IP.)

    'Wait! What does that mean?! I can't panic properly unless I know what that means!'
    'Well believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and... I went ahead anyway.'

    Quote from FenixR

    There is a fundamental difference in this, Notch is aware of mods but he has allowed them to exist, Eloraam wasnt even aware of the fact someone made that conversion. so she took down that addon. Is it so hard to understand that this is simply a case of disrespect to eloraam work? He did what he did without even discussing/talking with Eloraam about it, when she has expressed quite a lot to not do such things. That the copyright are trash and useless? Maybe, but that still doesnt give you the right to disrespect the developer, which will only making him/her to have a sour mood and consider either stop to developing his/her mod, or simply stop sharing his work with the public.


    The thing is it wasn't a disrespect, he didn't post her source code for everyone to use, he posted a simple addon that barely used ANY of her code because it HAD to. Thousands of people have created sub addons for the Technic-esque mods without issues, and there are other RP2 addons floating around. The only reason she removed it was because she had plans to do something of the sort for herself later, NOT because it used her code. I'm not disrespecting anyone here, I'm just saying its a tad overzealous to go squashing addons because of something so childish and simple.


    Quote

    Aside from the fact that they actually are, I find it amazingly hypocritical that you complain about how Eloraam "squashes" someone else, and then proceed to try and justify trampling all over her rights in such a childish fashion.


    I'm justifying the right of someone to make a mod for a mod. That's it, I don't justify people stealing other's work, I'm saying there's no technical protection for this. Elo's only "right" to have it taken down was because her friend, Al, runs this site, if she tried to use that same protection on MCF or anywhere else on the internet it'd be legally unjustifiable. What this guy did wasn't stealing, it wasn't reposting, it wasn't anything like that, he simply made a mod for a mod. One that helps a LOT of people who use both these mods, and it didn't harm Eloraam in any possible way, it didn't insult her, it didn't break her code, it didn't cause issues with it. NOTHING, it was a simple little tweak that allowed intercommunication between two mods that are paired together frequently.


    Quote

    You don't even make mods, do you? You have no idea what's needed to make a mod, but you think if you word it that way, it'll support your ridiculous postition. And if you did make a mod and someone misused it or stole itl, you'd be the first one in here crying about it.
    As I stated before, Eloraam's mod does not violate Mojang's license. If it did, they would have shut her down and locked the thread sometime before page 885, don't you think?
    If, as you allege, they are aware but "turning a blind eye", then guess what? That means they are permitting its use. But how you make the leap from that, to saying that this remove's Eloraam's rights to protect her work... I can't even begin to see where your brain makes that connection.


    Making assinine assumptions about my capabilities as a modmaker and whether I understand copyright law or stealing is completely absurd. Google "Metallurgy Minecraft", see how many damn times my mod has been stolen or reposted under other adflies, see how many people have taken MY creation and reposted it elsewhere. There are 4-5 pages of google results of my mod being posted elsewhere, half of which don't give credit. Hell the largest source of downloads for my mod (30k+ of them) is minecraftdl and NOT my main thread. So before you go jumping the gun and calling someone else out as inexperienced or out of their league go do your research.


    There's a big difference between permission and ignoring. Turning a blind eye is not permission. I'm saying technically she doesn't have their express right to be generating ad revenue off reposting parts of their source code, none of us modders do. Mojang has never created a terms of modding use for any of us, if they wanted to they could snap their fingers and take down every mod simultaneously. Legal bullshit has nothing to do with anything here in the Minecraft modding world. Petty imaginary copyrights on forum posts were invented by the forum moderators to keep kids from thinking they can steal eachother's content and giving the moderation staff a simple way to enforce (which they don't enforce anything else anyway). In order to claim copyright you have to have the express permission from the owner that you can use any submaterials located inside, the blind eye excuse won't hold up in copyright cases. She can't call copyright on Redpower if it includes Modloader or ModloaderMP or Forge or any API because they all contain Minecraft's base materials, of which none of them have express permission from Minecraft to include their source code. Legality withstanding, copyright law is non-existent here because all of us are technically in legal grey. (As a note, express permission isn't simply a "tweet from Notch")


    What I was trying to say is that A) the mod the guy posted broke zero rules and zero laws, he could post it anywhere if he wanted, the only reason it was taken down was because of conflicts with Elo's future plans and it was posted on this site, and B) you guys need to stop criminalizing this poor guy for making a mod for a mod, he just did something to help his two favorite mods be compatible, he didn't post it under an adfly, he wasn't out to make money. He simply made something to help him and other people out.


    So stop being dicks to the poor kid who modded a mod and stop bringing legal mumbo-jumbo as a case against him, this is completely outside of lega boundaries. In the end, it was a kid making a mod and the mod's owner got it shut down on a site where she had power (IE: Here because she's friends with Al). That's it, period. If this was anywhere else we wouldn't even have this discussion. You guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion, and making this kid out to be something he's not, and that's where I draw the line.


    TL;DR
    -He wasn't a criminal, nothing he did was illegal by any standard
    -None of us technically can hold copyright without express permission (Aka not a tweet) (Edit: As a note, the guy above me does bring the good point with "enforce it or lose it" being the general attitude, I don't know if that is expressly how its committed however, and you have to take into account we're in international territory here because of all the file hosts and living locations of people involved, and the fact Mojang is a Swedish company)
    -Stop treating and talking about the guy like he was a monster
    -Eloraam did not have the power to take it down for any reason other than this was Alblanka's website and he chose to take it down


    There, that summarizes what I'm trying to say. I don't want to keep arguing with you guys since you seem to enjoy throwing out insults and making assumptions left and right about stupid stuff. There's no point for this thread to even remain open. We aren't going to change Al's mind about leaving it up because he's being nice to Elo by taking it down, and this argument only continues to spiral into insults and baseless accusations.

    Quote from Alblaka

    Still remember the convo ending with "No, stop bugging me, cables transmitting energy are totally not possible! Use the batterys."

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    I'm justifying the right of someone to make a mod for a mod.


    Sorry to inform you that no such "right" exists. It depends entirely upon the permission of the author whose work you intend to modify. Mojang permits it; Eloraam does not. Both are within their rights to do so.
    In cases of use of others' intellectual property, the only "rights" you have is what they grant.


    Quote

    Elo's only "right" to have it taken down was because her friend, Al, runs this site, if she tried to use that same protection on MCF or anywhere else on the internet it'd be legally unjustifiable.


    Really? Try posting an unauthorized RedPower mod on the MCF and watch how quickly they lock it, delete the link, and BAN you.


    Quote

    Google "Metallurgy Minecraft", see how many damn times my mod has been stolen or reposted under other adflies, see how many people have taken MY creation and reposted it elsewhere. There are 4-5 pages of google results of my mod being posted elsewhere, half of which don't give credit. Hell the largest source of downloads for my mod (30k+ of them) is minecraftdl and NOT my main thread. So before you go jumping the gun and calling someone else out as inexperienced or out of their league go do your research.


    Very well, I must then revise my statement. In light of the fact that you ARE a mod developer, there now remains no possible way that you can justify the misappropriation of others' work.
    Or is it merely that you expect others should be bound by the lax wording that permits unauthorized use of your mod?


    Quote

    Turning a blind eye is not permission.


    When it comes to defending one's license to their IP, it most certainly is. Awareness of a violation and failure to defend against it sets the precedent for permitted use. That is why companies must aggressively defend their copyrights, otherwise they lose them.


    Quote

    She can't call copyright on Redpower if it includes Modloader or ModloaderMP or Forge or any API because they all contain Minecraft's base materials


    How can you be a mod developer and not even understand what you're talking about? RedPower doesn't contain any of that - it requires it to run. Forge mods don't modify base Minecraft classes, and all of the mods you mentioned must be installed separately to function.


    Quote

    So stop being dicks to the poor kid who modded a mod


    Stop being a dick to the person who put so much time and effort into making the mod he then modded. Without her, without RedPower, his add-on is irrelevant and useless. So he owes it to her to respect her wishes.


    Quote

    You guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion, and making this kid out to be something he's not, and that's where I draw the line.


    Perhaps if you drew the line at defending an individual author's right to determine the permitted use of their own intellectual proprty, we wouldn't have to defend it so far behind the front. :rolleyes:


    I'll give you the fact that it doesn't include ModloaderMP/Modloader/Forge technically so that point is thrown out, I didn't bother to really think about that one.


    I'm not being a dick to Eloraam by saying that because she deems it unallowed for someone to make a mod for her mod that its outside her domain. I respect the rights of the ability of people to make content and enhance modification of Minecraft, whether or not she existed is irrelevant to this, this guy had just as much of a right to make a mod for her creation as she did, trying to slam the door on it by saying "well if she wanted to.." is completely worthless in this discussion. He, as a person with access to the internet, has the right to create the addon as much as she does to make the mod, shut the mod down, whatever. That's plain fact. She had the right to pursue him over the addon but whether she had the right to shut it down is wherein the issue lies. I'm not debating whether she can pursue those who break her "copyright" (although I still think those copyrights are far from legally binding), I'm debating whether or not she legally has the power to back up her ability to shut it down and whether you guys should be criminalizing this guy for creating this. I guarantee that if you posted a Redpower Addon anywhere on the internet it wouldn't get shutdown besides a few choice sites (I can't say for MCF, it is possible the moderation staff would shut it down solely because it has Redpower in its name and because they like squashing drama ahead of time)


    I defend the right for a user to create an addon for a mod as much as I defend the right of the modder to make the mod originally. I think going on a witch hunt because some guy created an addon of what you intended to do is overkill, regardless of bureaucratic tidbits. She had the right to pursue him, but on the moral ground I see it as wrong that she did such when he did nothing but foster companionship with her mod and other modifications. He put his time into something, he gained nothing from it, and Elo is the only one who could've gained from it with no foreseeable loss from it.


    (This is where I become a dick to Eloraam)


    =


    As a note, jumping into "what ifs" and rolling your eyes at me isn't how a debate is carried out my friend, I'd prefer you not do that in the future. (no insult meant here, just quite serious, its just kinda trollish/jerkish to do that)


    And my copyright was removed last week because I was tired of these petty squabbles. Everyone makes assumptions about the copyright rules because of the fact the MCF tried to make them out to be something they weren't.

    Quote from Alblaka

    Still remember the convo ending with "No, stop bugging me, cables transmitting energy are totally not possible! Use the batterys."

    How about you wait after Redpower2 gets its Beta tag out before expecting a Api out of it?


    And i like how people ignore the fact that it is HER creation, she may do whatever she wants with it because she owns redpower and if she doesnt want any submod of her mod then she has the right to refuse it,


    And just for your info, Eloraam doenst "Refuse" every single submod but she do ask people to talk with her before making any of these before hand to avoid situations like this one, in the end its better to ask her first and be taken down right there before you lost your time coding something, that do it first the lose the time because you could not even send her a PM about it.


    And i dont know what else to say, i would love for this to died out, because like i have been saying since several post backs, "This is going in circles".


    First off, Beta is irrelevant, she can call it beta forever it doesn't change the point. She has never shown any interest in creating anything for an API, as you guys quoted yourselves earlier, she posts her future plans on her blog, I haven't seen any post about addons or discussion of an API or anything with the fans and compatibility seekers.


    Second off, you completely disregarded that I said its her right to do whatever, but it doesn't make it morally right.


    I'm just baffled you guys would so easily support/defend someone who stifles freedom of expression and fostering of compatibility. Someone who has said she makes her mod for her and not for her fans. I'm a fan of Redpower, not of Eloraam, and I won't sit here and pretend I'm not arguing against her, I am, I'm just trying to make you guys realize that Elo is just another FlowerChild who doesn't care about her fans in any personal regard, just as download counts and ad revenue.

    Quote from Alblaka

    Still remember the convo ending with "No, stop bugging me, cables transmitting energy are totally not possible! Use the batterys."

    First, im not a fan of no one, I respect eloraam, but that doesnt mean im a fan of her.


    Second Morality means jack shit on the face of Rights, and humans beings are pretty capable of just go from one end to the other in the morality Scale.


    No one (At least not me) hasnt said that what eloraam did was "Morally" right, we just simply have said that she has the right to do whatever the F*** she wants with redpower because she made it from scratch, without the help of anyone and more importanly she hasnt asked for the help of anyone nor has he asked for any kind of addon (Or even permited) to be created.


    Third, it doesnt matter how much redpower2 code that mod had, without redpower that mod did absolutely nothing so it doesnt really matter (Although of course the mod had to include Redpower 2 code for the machines to be recognized by the Bluetricity E-Net)


    And Fourth, we gain nothing from futher discussing this, all the facts of the case have been already put to the table and properly discussed, and we are most likely to start insulting each other in more obvious ways. But if you want to keep disscussing who am i to stop you people from doing so.


    Oh something i forgot to mention is that the Beta tag DOES matter, because that means the mod is still in a development stage that things could take a 180° turn and completely mess stuff, thats why making an API in such a stage its more work than necessary. (At least in my opinion, i would rather have something stable first)

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    I'm not being a dick to Eloraam by saying that because she deems it unallowed for someone to make a mod for her mod that its outside her domain.


    But it most certainly is in her domain. She possesses sole right to the intellectual property upon which the add-on is based. The names, items and concepts within the add-on are all property of Eloraam.


    Quote

    He, as a person with access to the internet, has the right to create the addon as much as she does to make the mod, shut the mod down, whatever.


    See, that's where you're wrong. He has the right to make his own mod, no one disputes that. What he doesn't have the right to do is to hang on her coattails and make an unauthorized add-on.


    Quote

    She had the right to pursue him over the addon but whether she had the right to shut it down is wherein the issue lies. I'm not debating whether she can pursue those who break her "copyright" (although I still think those copyrights are far from legally binding)


    Then you need to read up on copyright. The mere act of publication grants it. And that's already been established.


    Quote

    If Elo wants her mod to be so fan-friendly if she really craves compatibility and fosters friendship between mods, how come her copyright doesn't allow addons? I truly do find her to be a selfish modder and what the community shouldn't strive to be or follow.


    I think you mistake what she's trying to do. She's trying to make the mod SHE wants to play - I fail to see how other people are going to accomplish that.
    The fact that she shares her work should be sufficient to dismiss your claims of "selfishness"


    Quote

    I don't like Elo, she puts her mod before anyone else's. Its her way or the highway. Which although she has the right to do, doesn't make her a nice person for it. She has stated she's making whatever she wants. Tell me, is THIS the kind of author you really want to be a fan for?


    As a matter of fact, YES. I completely respect an author's right to do whatever they wish with their own creation. As for whether or not she's "nice"? I've never seen her be unkind, even to her detractors. She simply will not compromise just because others tell her to.


    The alternative is to support a developer like you, who clearly doesn't respect the rights of others to control their own property.


    Quote

    As a note, jumping into "what ifs" and rolling your eyes at me isn't how a debate is carried out my friend


    Don't presume that I'm your friend until you've earned my friendship. Yes, I did propose a "what if": What if mod authors supported each other's rights rather than try to erode them? The same could happen to you - and if you don't care, then that just shows your utter lack of empathy. I roll my eyes because you clearly still don't get it.


    Quote

    Everyone makes assumptions about the copyright rules because of the fact the MCF tried to make them out to be something they weren't.


    Perhaps you don't understand that these copyrights exist regardless of Curse's policies - they merely established the rules to cover their own asses. Even if such policies did not exist, authors would still retain the right to limit use and distribution of their property. I understand intellectual property law better than most people - it's part of my professional education. And your refusal to accept Eloraam's enforcement of her rights does not in any way change her ability to exercise them.


    So, it sounds like what this issue is really about is "Eloraam's a big meanie". And since that's the only thing with which you can legitimately take issue, I can suggest only the one solution you have available to you:
    Don't use her product. That's your only right as regards her work. But as soon as you download the file, you are legally signing your name in agreement to her Terms of Use - so you cannot then disagree with their validity.

    Quote from FenixR

    i would love for this to died out, because like i have been saying since several post backs, "This is going in circles".


    I agree completely.


    To those who think Eloraam is in the worng, I'll close with this: Good luck trying to get her to change. Don't talk to us about it, talk to her.
    Nothing you say to US is going to ever convince HER to change her ways to suit YOU.


    Is that clear enough, everyone?

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    Technic-esque mods


    *pinkiepieshrug.gif*


    I fold. You guys have fun.

    'Wait! What does that mean?! I can't panic properly unless I know what that means!'
    'Well believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and... I went ahead anyway.'

    Quote from Frantic Fanatic

    *pinkiepieshrug.gif*


    I fold. You guys have fun.


    Or you can be mature about this and not go off on one word as if its the end of the world?


    Like it or not sadly its the term used to describe mods of a machine nature now in the general community, whether or not they came far before the first technic pack (or have ever been in the Technic pack). I've heard it plenty of times and it kinda fits (in regards to the mechanized nature not the mod pack itself). Whether you agree with the modpack or not, the labeling is accurate. Its a genre of mods of technical and mechanical nature that have interwoven machines, power systems, and transportation systems.


    *shrugs*


    Quote from HeadHunter67


    I agree completely.


    To those who think Eloraam is in the worng, I'll close with this: Good luck trying to get her to change. Don't talk to us about it, talk to her.
    Nothing you say to US is going to ever convince HER to change her ways to suit YOU.


    Is that clear enough, everyone?


    Wasn't our goal to change her, she isn't going to change. Its my hope that you, her diehard fans, would realize she doesn't give a damn about you so you can waste your breath towards defending something that actually deserves it. There are better authors, better mods, and much nicer people who are willing to work with you, work with their fans, and improve the community who need diehard fans like yourselves, and they'd appreciate you. The same people who ousted FlowerChild when he did these same actions (pre-Forge pull) are the same people supporting Eloraam in her actions. That's what I dislike.

    Quote from Alblaka

    Still remember the convo ending with "No, stop bugging me, cables transmitting energy are totally not possible! Use the batterys."

    Quote from Shadowclaimer

    Wasn't our goal to change her, she isn't going to change.


    Then you're just engaging in academic masturbation.


    Quote

    Its my hope that you, her diehard fans, would realize she doesn't give a damn about you so you can waste your breath towards defending something that actually deserves it.


    Don't take this personally, but Eloraam has done more for me and my enjoyment of the game than you have. She's been helpful when I have had issues, attentive when I have had concerns, and she delivers a mod that I find useful and downright essential to the way I play. So it's not a waste for me to support her in her decisions. I'm smart enough to realize that alienation can mean the death of the mod.


    If you're concerned about "wasted breath", I'd recommend you conserve your own. I've made it clear that I have my reasons for my position, and they're perfectly valid. Saul's never been able to convince me of anything and nothing you've added has moved my position one bit. If what you've both been trying to do all along is convince us, then I must sadly confess that you've failed in that attempt.


    At this point, probably best to take the soapbox and go home. I'm sure Saul will find another "lost cause" you can help to champion soon enough.

    Technic-'esque'. Implying that these mods are derived from Technic, where, at the very least, it is the other way around.


    I'm not going to waste my time arguing copyright with someone who uses that term. Sorry.


    You win. I agree with your viewpoint. I'm going home.

    'Wait! What does that mean?! I can't panic properly unless I know what that means!'
    'Well believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and... I went ahead anyway.'


    Well actually I like your final section a lot, and for that (even though you won't care) that's gained a ton of respect from me. At least you've shelled out why you like Elo. I can't say I've run into the same support, but to each their own. I understand why you fight for her and I apologize if I've insulted you in such a way now at the very least.


    I'm not a fan of being labeled exactly as a soapbox champion however, I don't know/care about Saul (I fought against him in plenty of his other points). I'm just someone who believes the Minecraft community needs to stop trying to pigeonhole itself into specific domains BTW style. Forge was meant to encourage people to interbreed mods and create addons, not to split us apart, and its odd seeing one of Forge's chief founders being so against it.

    Quote from Alblaka

    Still remember the convo ending with "No, stop bugging me, cables transmitting energy are totally not possible! Use the batterys."

    Quote from Frantic Fanatic

    Technic-'esque'. Implying that these mods are derived from Technic, where, at the very least, it is the other way around.


    I'm not going to waste my time arguing copyright with someone who uses that term. Sorry.


    You win. I agree with your viewpoint. I'm going home.


    -esque implies in the manner of, not derived of. The Technic pack had an overarching theme, regardless of whether you agree with the pack doesn't mean the term doesn't fit. Any mod with machines, transportation systems, a power system, and that uses Forge fits under the technic-esque label. Implying I'm unknowledgeable solely on my usage of one vocabulary term is just.. ludicrous. A slang one at that even.


    *shrugs*

    Quote from Alblaka

    Still remember the convo ending with "No, stop bugging me, cables transmitting energy are totally not possible! Use the batterys."

    Quote

    The thing is it wasn't a disrespect, he didn't post her source code for everyone to use, he posted a simple addon that barely used ANY of her code because it HAD to. Thousands of people have created sub addons for the Technic-esque mods without issues, and there are other RP2 addons floating around. The only reason she removed it was because she had plans to do something of the sort for herself later, NOT because it used her code. I'm not disrespecting anyone here, I'm just saying its a tad overzealous to go squashing addons because of something so childish and simple.


    She allowed other addons because people gave her a chance to allow it. And it is obviously that she even allowed addons that interfere with her plans (ComputerCraft).


    Quote

    I'm justifying the right of someone to make a mod for a mod. That's it, I don't justify people stealing other's work, I'm saying there's no technical protection for this. Elo's only "right" to have it taken down was because her friend, Al, runs this site, if she tried to use that same protection on MCF or anywhere else on the internet it'd be legally unjustifiable.


    Incorrect. Decompiling her code is not allowed, and this is not a morale question. It's just not allowed. Mohjang doesn't allows it either, but Notch stated that they will ignore this, because it would make modding impossible. But this is a decision Mohjang has taken. Eloraam is in no need to take the same decision. Mohjang mainly decided this way because mods make Minecraft more interesting and get them more money. For Eloraam it doens't care. She is easier of forbidding addons.


    Quote

    I'm saying technically she doesn't have their express right to be generating ad revenue off reposting parts of their source code


    Hmm... Redpower is totally fine. Mohjang can't do anything. Redpower doesn't use a single piece of Mohjangs code. And forge, the tool used to make this possible (as well as modloader and modloaderMP) are not under her control.


    Quote

    He, as a person with access to the internet, has the right to create the addon as much as she does to make the mod, shut the mod down, whatever.


    Ohohoh... I just say Oracle. You might make addons or whatever. If you only use what the creator of the original provides you with. Most cases that actually go to court are about tiny bits of code used. Eloraam uses the same copyright as Apple or Microsoft do. For her it's not worth going to court because there is no money involved, that doesn't mean that she can't do it. And we are in the civil-rights section here, but that doesn't make it legal.

    Quote


    I'm debating whether or not she legally has the power to back up her ability to shut it down and whether you guys should be criminalizing this guy for creating this.


    Well... if you sum it up, most people don't question the fact that he created the addon, but that he totally ignored eloraams wishes. And it's not that he wasn't knowing it. He knows that eloraam was a little upset about similar things mainly regarding modpacks and still he don't even bothered about getting her permission.


    Quote

    She had the right to pursue him, but on the moral ground I see it as wrong that she did such when he did nothing but foster companionship with her mod and other modifications.


    If you view it from the morale perspective than pursuing him is not better or worse than making the addon without her approval. In difference to BC and IC2 Eloraam always made her attidude clear and hasn't provided an API either. Oh and she thinks about an API quite often, but actually she uses her time to improve the mod itself, because she would have to update the API quite often, this one is about an API for tubes (to make it possible for Mods to place objects directly into tubes, like the quarry or forestry objects do).


    Quote

    Yes, it is... It's a function that I would actually love to add to RP, but I'm having a heck of a time coming up with a good API for it. You see, tubes require extensive interaction with the machine, it's not a "fire and forget" deal like pipes are. The practical downside of that is that it requires quite a lot of RP code to make a machine work that way.


    Quote

    I don't like Elo, just because I fear she's no different than FlowerChild, she puts her mod before anyone else's and has no regard for her fans or anyone who wishes to use her mod as a platform for creation. Its her way or the highway. Which although she has the right to do, doesn't make her a nice person for it. She has stated she's making whatever she wants regardless of stepping on toes, she doesn't care about fan input, she blatantly rips from other mods, and she squashes any addons for her mod. Tell me, is THIS the kind of author you really want to be a fan for?


    Actually this is the whole reason why I like her and FC. They don't care. FC makes this even more clear than eloraam. He only mods for himself. If players like his mod, they are free to use it and if they don't like it might just use other mods. There are many examples for both that they take suggestions serious... but this is rather rare and only if the suggestion goes along with there plan. And she haven't ripped of more than most other mods. Pipes are just a rip-off of conveyor-belts and well actually some mods had stolen quite a lot of more technic parts from her style of programming (some like xen0 even admit that they learned quite a lot from her).


    Quote

    Second off, you completely disregarded that I said its her right to do whatever, but it doesn't make it morally right.


    As said, the whole discussion only started because there is not only one people with questionable behavior. If I ask someone to please make room for me and he won't do it, he hasn't done anything wrong, but still blocking me is morally questionable. So since Eloraam isn't in any case a morale instance she has no need to behave always correctly. And one of the main reasons they (FC and Eloraam) behave so differently is that they work on their project alone. An redpower-API would need proper maintenance itself and needs to be upgraded here and there too. So it is additional work, which she doesn't want to take on so early. Even a conversion mod isn't really needed. Because you don't have anything that consumes power and the only reason to turn blutricity into EUs is because her solars are even more OP than the IC2 ones if you take a good transformation-rate. So I don't see the need for a hurry here.


    And if he would have asked before she might even have told him this. Actually it isn't even possible to evaluate blutricity against EUs because the only comparison you have is the amount of energy needed to burn something inside each furnace. So I don't know if he did some research regarding the conversation-rates because this isn't easy since the only comparison are the furnaces.


    So the reason we are angry with him is not because he broke copyright-laws... I couldn't care less about this. But he caused completly unnecessary trouble. He should have known Eloraams position regarding such things. And well without such incidents it would be much easier to convince eloraam to approve addons. It's not that she is totally against addons or giving out parts of her code, actually most mods use her method to compress BlockIDs and she gave away parts of Redpower to ChickenBones and allowed ComputerCraft to call her functions (which was a little bit in the grey area, but she gave in to the community convincing her that it would be fine). So it is possible to speak with her. Just posting an addon somewhere without talking with her isn't that convincing.


    It's not about copyright, at least not for us. Copyright is just the reason why she is able to enforce such things. For me it is about the bad habit not to talk with the creator, if he doesn't give you a general approval like IC2 and BC do. And if he had asked she might even have approved the Melon-idea for creating power in the nether.