Suggestion: New GeoGen system.

1st Official Post

    Suggestion name:
    New GeoGen system


    ALL NEW GEOGEN SYSTEM :


    vvv CKICK THE LINK BELOW vvv
    :thumbup: !!!EVEN MORE NEW GEOGEN SYSTEM HERE!!! :thumbup:


    "Just to throw this in:
    Cells cannot turn empty upon crafting. That's a limitation for stackable items.
    Please proceed with the remaining discussion though, sounds like some quite neat stuff."


    Oookay, Bla-bla-blaka. :)


    I reconsider my (and all yours ideas), and I have now some.. THING.
    (damn I really need some more english education)


    Just take a look at this picture (it's most awesome picture ever made by me) :



    Sooo what we got from here..


    • Water/Coolant/Lava Cells DON'T have any "energy storage", that thing NOT ever need us.
    • From where comes enegry in that case? From Water Cells of course. (EXAMPLE: one W-Cell = 4 EU/t of GeoGen, 2 = 8 EU/t and 3 = 12 EU/t.
    • Lava Cells - while no L-Cells aren't in GeoGen, it wouldn't work. If we have 1 W-Cell in, we need only 1 L-Cell to heat water well and Lava Cell will "work" some.. pretty long time (I don't know how much, maybe one MC day?). So.. If we have 2 W-Cells in, we need, yes, at least 2 L-Cells for long "work". Same with 3 W-Cells. BUT what if I'll put only one Lava Cell and three Water Cells? It's simple as.. universe, Lava Cell will end in 1/3 of 'normal' time. What about one Water Cell and three Lava Cells? Don't do that, cuz now Water Cell will end in 1/3 of their 'normal' time, you don't need that, right? Same with 2/3, 3/2.
    • Coolant Cells, why they are here? Without any C-Cells 'normal working time' of water ones will have the "N" value. Put one C-Cell to double that value, two to triple and three to... quadro. EXAMPLE: You have 'normal' cells combination (1W+1L / 2W+2L / 3W+2L), without any C-Cells Water Cells will work.. hmm.. 1/2 of MC day. If you put one Coolant Cell, Water Cells will work 1 MC day; 2 C-Cells = 1.5 MC days; 3 (full) C-Cells = 2 MC days.
    • And Water Cells 'life time' = (W/L)*C , where W- number of Water Cells, L - number of .. you already get it, right? :)
      So in that case, if W=1, L=3 (bad combination), but L = 3, life time of W-Cell will =1 (1 - it's 'normal' time, that as I said in last example = 1/2 MC day). W=3, L=3, C=3 then LT (life time) = 3 (3*half of one MC day = .. "1.5" MC days, why not "2" like in last example? There was kind of (W/L)+C formula). Yes, I think that (W/L)+C is better.

    So.. it's difficult only on paper, in practice it's very simple:


    Just make the "Normal-Water-Lava-Cells-Combination" (1W+1L or 2W+2L or 3W+2L) and if you wanna much longer working time, just put in GeoGen some Coolant Cells too. :thumbup:


    So best GeoGens then comes in 3 .. tiers *ololo*
    JUST AN AXAMPLE, again!


    • Tier 1: 1W+1L Cell and 3 Coolant Cells = 4 EU/t in 2 MC days.
    • Tier 2: 2W+2L Cell and 3 Coolant Cells = 8 EU/t in 2 MC days.
    • Tier 3: 3W+3L Cell and 3 Coolant Cells = 12 EU/t in 2 MC days.

    FCRSE, all EU/t values and the maximum time of work (when normal W-L combination and +3 C-Cells) can be changed for more balance!

    NEW ADJUSTMENT :


    One Water Cell in GeoGen always generate "N" value of EU/t. No matter how many Coolant Cell you got or Lava Cells (but at least one Lava Cell will be needed for GeoGen to work).


    If you will set 3 Water Cells and only one Lava Cell, it will give you "N"x3 EU/t, but in that case Lava Cell will cool off extremely fast (too much water for one Lava Cell).


    My point is:


    With the GeoGens you shouldn't care of the heat produsing or explosion chance, no.
    You must set a BALANCED combination of Lava and Water Cells and all.


    And as I told before, balanced combinations is where number of the Water Cells = number of the Coolant Cells.


    And I want that losses cuz of broking that balance will be epicly high with each unnecessary or missing cell.
    Example: (in all cases are no Coolant Cells, they not matter in this example, just will multiply)


    • 1W + 1L - Oh, it's ok. Work fine and a long time "T" and giving me "N" EU/t. (same 2W + 2L ("N"x2) and 3W + 3L ("N"x3))
    • 1W + 2L - Hmmm.. Not good, too much lava, working too fast, just 1/3 of time "T", but giving me "N" EU/t. (same or almost same 2W + 3L ("N"x2))
    • 1W + 3L - OH MY GODNESS! It ended so quickly, just 1/12 of optimal time "T",.. but still giving me "N" EU/t.
    • 2W + 1L - Eh.. need more lava, it gives me "N"x2 EU/t, but only 1/3 of normal time "T". (same or almost same 3W+2L ("N"x3))
    • 3W + 1L - Ah, yep. Too much water, lava was cooled so fast, it was giving me "N"x3, but only that ridiculous 1/12 of normal time "T", next time will use more Lava Cells.

    So you see? Than more you close to the "ideal balance" than more time will work GeoGen with the same resources => more EU.
    Your goal is to get it to work longer. So what for Coolant Cells are:


    One Coolant Cell with "balanced W-L" will work perfectly and double it's working time ("T"x2), 2 C-Cells = "T"x3, 3 C-Cells = "T"x4.
    BUT. With bad (not balanced) GeoGens wouldn't work fine, and will just add a half of current "T" (unbalanced = 1/3"T"+1/6"T", more unbalanced = 1/12"T" + 1/24"T"), it's ridiculous, right? Too low uprgade per Coolant Cell with unbalanced GeoGens. Yes.
    Cuz BALANCE IS YOUR ALL ! :D :thumbup: :D


    ONE MORE ADJUSTMENT :


    In my (crazy) imagination, geothermal station comes in that way (in GeoGen):


    "The heat of the earth" is realised in Lava Cells. (cuz in MC lava is hot 4ever unless meet water, and that becouse Lava Cells lose their..charge)


    "hot steam / extremely pressured hot water" is realised in Water Cells. (turns into hot steam by contacting Lava Cells)


    "in RL hot steam/water from "the bowels of the earth" just comes to the surface and.. all." No circulating, but we need it! Cuz we don't need just single process, we need continual work of GeoGen for constant EU/t. Thats why appears the Coolant Cells. We can make some looped tube and fill it with hot steam (Water Cells + Lava Cells = hot steam, right?). Yes, process will start, steam will be heated in 1 place (when near the Lava Cells) and cooled off at other way in tubes of GeoGen. BUT, as I say before (and in OP), without additional cooling hot steam will be heated and heated again and again each time when comind near Lava Sector of GeoGen. Overheated steam just will automatically get off from the GeoGen, and in that case water from Water Cell/Cells will.. end very fast. But not with the Coolant Cells.


    AND. You don't ever need then add new items in game special for new GeoGen. :thumbup:
    Only new GUI and simple (I though) code.


    +

    Quote from Flameanatorx

    I would suggest that, to possibly make coding easier, you implement the following: you put the cells you want to deposit in the Geo and they disappear and then reappear; they are being replaced by a duplicate item which isn't stackable and has a damage bar. This way there's virtually no new coding, just adding 3 "new items", which are used up for energy generation like you say in the OP. Also, there should be an output slot in the GUI, which the empty cells are deposited in after their contents are used up for energy generation by the Geothermal (that way there is no tin cost).


    From Russia with love! :love:

    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    And here is kind of.. 1st type GeoCell sprite:



    2nd and 3rd type GeoCells will be just more thick (wide).

    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    3000 EU per lava bucket and refined iron.
    8000 EU per 2 lava buckets and 3 refined iron + redstone + cable.
    20000 EU per 3 lava buckets, and a ton of other resources.


    I mean no offense, but are you insane? The current EU cost on lava buckets is absolutely fine, no need to nerf GeoGens JUST after they became viable now that we can actually stack the damn fuel. It's enough of a hassle to haul as it is.


    In short, if your suggestion were to come through, nobody would EVER use GeoGens again.


    And it's not just about the low EU output. Nobody in their mind will use up Refined Iron (one of the most valuable resources in IC2) on some energy that can be produced by one-time investments like Solar, Wind or Water generators.

    "And yeah, ALL recipes/numbers of coarse can be changed for more.. balance" problems?
    Mod creators can change values how they want (30k, 60k, 100k if you want), that is just an example!

    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    "(maybe change expensive circuits cuz they will burned and gone 4ever, or make those cells re-fillable)"


    What about re-fill empty GeoCells?


    www
    _E_
    LLL


    w - Water Cell
    E - Empty GeoCell
    L - Lava Cell


    ADDED:


    Empty GeoCell (1st type)


    When you take Re-filled GeoCell, an Empty GeoCell will disappear, Water and Lava Cells turn into normal Empty Cells.


    The same with 2nd and 3rd type GeoCells, but you need 2x or 3x Water and Lava Cells, accordingly.


    ADDED AGAIN:


    Just like that:


    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    Reusable you say? SIGN ME ON!!!!!!!! I would love this idea so much. Would add sophistication and features to the goethermal generator.


    Instead of the bar to show the power level for the geothermal generator, just put the geothermal cell in, and add a damage value to it like those in a Nuclear Reactor. As energy is sapped, the geothermal cell bar goes down, leaving an empty geothermal cell once all the energy has been sapped out.

    Quote from M11xStryker

    Instead of the bar to show the power level for the geothermal generator, just put the geothermal cell in, and add a damage value to it like those in a Nuclear Reactor. As energy is sapped, the geothermal cell bar goes down, leaving an empty geothermal cell once all the energy has been sapped out.

    Yep, Empty GeoCells suppose that way of changing GeoGen work system. :)

    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    what about making geotermal generator just like reactor, but only with two possible components, water and lava cells.


    lava will pass thermal energy to neaby cells, just like uran cells, water will evaporate on recieving energy and produce electrical energy.


    if you pass too much energy into water cell, it will evaporate with loses (may be 10 eu max per cell) or melt\explode\leak.


    if you place too much water near lava cell, it will produce only 1 energy per cell.


    soo single lava single water produce 10 eu, double lava single water produce 10 eu but water lose durability 8x faster (2 lava cells provide 40 heat per tick)


    geotermal never blow ofc, but may leak lava-water if you setup it incorrectly.

    • Official Post

    I do like the idea of being able to boost the output of a geothermal generator by feeding it additional resources. Choices are cool, and make things wonderfully engaging (see nuclear reactors!). Let me try to address the balancing of it.


    First off, the EU output when running directly off stored lava is 10EU/s, so we'll have to boost our advanced generation mode past that. As you pointed out, steam is actually the primary currency of geothermal electricity generation. Looking through an article linked from the one you gave us (Geothermal electricity), we may be able to draw inspiration from the three types of geothermal plants listed there, making our choice by which type of cell we feed into the generator. First, I'm going to assume that our generator's design is based on the standard magic Minecraft physics. Since lava stays hot forever in Minecraft, we store it up in a chamber inside the generator and then use a simple cycle of exposing water to it (stealing its heat and using it up), using the steam to power turbines, giving the water time to cool, and repeating the process. From there, our versions of the modes of operation on that page would be something like:

    • "Dry steam" mode. This is the closest to what we have right now, using geothermal energy directly, so this is our standard 10EU/t mode just running off the generator's lava storage.
    • "Flash steam" mode. Feeding additional water into the generator, either in buckets (no material cost) or cells (costs tin but is stackable), we eliminate the need to let our internal water supply cool, and can just vent out the extra steam when we're done with it. Running constantly, energy generation is greatly increased (doubled?), but of course the consumption of lava is increased by the same rate.
    • "Binary cycle" mode. The basis of this mode is replacing the water with a liquid that has a much lower boiling point. For us, that means less lava used to produce energy at the same rate, increasing (doubling?) the amount of time the generator's storage will last. Coolant cells would be an appropriate choice for the liquid component, but they can't be stacked so they're not really practical for this application. So let's say we activate this mode by feeding it coalfuel cells. Coalfuel is a hydrocarbon. :D And that also means that we're cutting a theoretically limited resource (lava) with another (coal dust), so it helps preserve balance.

    Hmm I like the idea but why not just add another spot for water in the geothermal gen GUI. Just lava 10 EU. With a bucket of water or a stack of water cells in the second slot 15 EU. I don't think it is necessarily to increase the out put amount solely because you are using cells after all the benefit of using cells vs buckets is that you don't have to sit there and baby sit it.

    All people dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in
    the dusty recesses of their mind, wake in the morning to find
    that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous people,
    for they dream their dreams with open eyes, and make them come true.
    --T.E. Lawrence

    And have another idea.
    Why are we using just simple FURNACE as generator? AFAIK, real power plants are more complicated. They are using fuel, or another heat source to boil the water, and turn it into steam. This steam spins a steam turbine which drives an electrical generator. But we can just burn fuel in the furnace and obtain energy. Maaaybe we should use more complicated system?


    And about solars... Solar generator is very different from usual generator - no turbines, no water boilers and so on. An we are making them from usual "fuel" generator.
    I think, it will be nice, if generator cycle will be completely redone.


    I suggest different modules
    1) Generator - it is the energy-producing machine, converts mechanical energy into electrical.
    2) Turbines (for heat-based systems) they can recieve thermal energy, and drive the generator.
    3) Different... i dont know... steam generators. They can use geothermal energy, fuel, nuclear power and spin the turbines.
    And solar collector should be a different type of energy-produsing devices.


    but, if this idea will be implemented, we'll need new reactor system. I suggest steam elements. They will recieve heat from the uranium cells and produce steam, which will be used in turbines. More heat recieved - more steam produced.

    Cutiemark crusaders - engineers, Yay!
    Blown up: Industrial Blast Furnace, Industrial Wiremill, Singularity compressor, Extractor.

    single water cell as component of generator (with decay over time like reactor one) will make it realistic.


    empty cell battery empty cell
    machine
    furnace


    and gui with additional water slot or gauge like geotermal one.

    Do you like the idea of modular generators?

    Cutiemark crusaders - engineers, Yay!
    Blown up: Industrial Blast Furnace, Industrial Wiremill, Singularity compressor, Extractor.

    I've been thinking about this, too. A generator is never just a box full of heat. It has to transform that heat energy into electrical energy. The main components are the heat generator itself, the steam turbine and the electrical generator.


    Now, this does increase complexity of electricity generation, and does make the start of a new world slower (as you need to create more before you are able to efficiently use the new machines). However, this does open some room for flexibility. Such as: a heat system for generators, a possibility to fuel several turbines from a single generator, or the other way, powering a single turbine with many low-power generators.


    Now, this does not apply to windmills and watermills. However, both conventional, geothermal and nuclear reactors can use this system. Would be especially useful for nuclears, as it gives a further use of their heat (higher heat -> higher steam pressure -> faster turbine -> more EU). The problem is, all the energy calculations go out the window with this method, so I am not sure Al will approve of this.

    "Just to throw this in:
    Cells cannot turn empty upon crafting. That's a limitation for stackable items.
    Please proceed with the remaining discussion though, sounds like some quite neat stuff."


    Oookay, Bla-bla-blaka. :)


    I reconsider my (and all yours ideas), and I have now some.. THING.
    (damn I really need some more english education)


    Just take a look at this picture (it's most awesome picture ever made by me) :



    Sooo what we got from here..


    • Water/Coolant/Lava Cells DON'T have any "energy storage", that thing NOT ever need us.
    • From where comes enegry in that case? From Water Cells of course. (EXAMPLE: one W-Cell = 6 EU/t of GeoGen, 2 = 12 EU/t and 3 = 18 20 EU/t (why not 18? cuz 3 Water Cells - normal and planned number of "fuel" of the GeoGen))
    • Lava Cells - while no L-Cells aren't in GeoGen, it wouldn't work. If we have 1 W-Cell in, we need only 1 L-Cell to heat water well and Lava Cell will "work" some.. pretty long time (I don't know how much, maybe one MC day?). So.. If we have 2 W-Cells in, we need, yes, at least 2 L-Cells for long "work". Same with 3 W-Cells. BUT what if I'll put only one Lava Cell and three Water Cells? It's simple as.. universe, Lava Cell will end in 1/3 of 'normal' time. What about one Water Cell and three Lava Cells? Don't do that, cuz now Water Cell will end in 1/3 of their 'normal' time, you don't need that, right? Same with 2/3, 3/2.
    • Coolant Cells, why they are here? Without any C-Cells 'normal working time' of water ones will have the "N" value. Put one C-Cell to double that value, two to triple and three to... quadro. EXAMPLE: You have 'normal' cells combination (1W+1L / 2W+2L / 3W+2L), without any C-Cells Water Cells will work.. hmm.. 1/2 of MC day. If you put one Coolant Cell, Water Cells will work 1 MC day; 2 C-Cells = 1.5 MC days; 3 (full) C-Cells = 2 MC days.
    • And Water Cells 'life time' = (W/L)*C , where W- number of Water Cells, L - number of .. you already get it, right? :)
      So in that case, if W=1, L=3 (bad combination), but L = 3, life time of W-Cell will =1 (1 - it's 'normal' time, that as I said in last example = 1/2 MC day). W=3, L=3, C=3 than LT (life time) = 3 (3*half of one MC day = .. "1.5" MC days, why not "2" like in last example? There was kind of (W/L)+C formula). Yes, I think that (W/L)+C is better.

    So.. it's difficult only on paper, in practice it's very simple:


    Just make the "Normal-Water-Lava-Cells-Combination" (1W+1L or 2W+2L or 3W+2L) and if you wanna much longer working time, just put in GeoGen some Coolant Cells too. :thumbup:


    Better?


    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|

    Aeyup, it makes the start slower, BUT! Now we have the cheap single-use batteries - you only need some redstone, coal dust (hmmm... need macerator... but you can create first heap of coal dust using some redstone), and it is possible to use machines without a generator for the first time.


    About the windmills and watermills - they can spin the electric generator without any turbines.
    For example, coal power plant:
    Boiler machine (coal powered) -> steam turbine -> electric generator
    For windmill:
    Windmill -> electric generator
    And, what about advanced fuel-based machine? Or not advanced, just the mobile one - internal combustion engine!
    ICE -> electric generator
    And it is possible to create mobile generator (which you can easy dismount and move it to the new place), it will be very useful with the miner!

    Cutiemark crusaders - engineers, Yay!
    Blown up: Industrial Blast Furnace, Industrial Wiremill, Singularity compressor, Extractor.

    So best GeoGens than comes in 3 .. tiers *ololo*
    JUST AN AXAMPLE, again!


    • Tier 1: 1W+1L Cell and 3 Coolant Cells = 6 EU/t in 2 MC days.
    • Tier 2: 2W+2L Cell and 3 Coolant Cells = 12 EU/t in 2 MC days.
    • Tier 3: 3W+3L Cell and 3 Coolant Cells = 20 EU/t in 2 MC days.

    FCRSE, all EU/t values and the maximum time of work (when normal W-L combination and +3 C-Cells) can be changed for more balance!

    AND. You don't ever need than add new items in game special for new GeoGen. :thumbup:
    Only new GUI and simple (I though) code.


    ADDED: I made new OP.

    Yep, I am from Russia, and yep, my english isn't good enough...
    So if.. if you dare to laugh of me, I.. I will find you and destroy with all our Soviet nuclear bombs, bwahahaha!
    Naah, I'm just kidding ^^ ... not. :|