Discussion of realism in MC

1st Official Post

    *deleted*

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    PS. And if you want to argue about how realism does not matter in MC or IC, open another thread for it.

    Edit: there was different topic here, but FenixR insists that it is changed to this. Ok, so be it.

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    THIS
    IS
    MINECRAFT!
    *Kicks Physics over ledge*


    Thats all you really need to know about if "Realism" really matters or not in minecraft.


    And come fucking on, we just got out of one Nuclear reactor revamp and you morons are pushing another one just to feel more "Realistic"?


    Deal with it people, minecraft its composed of many magical blocks that do most of the "Realistic" actions behind the scenes. So just get into your tiny little heads that somewhere inside that "Nuclear Reactor block" there is a water tank and a turbine, the water will be heated by the uranium cells where it will produce steam where it will move the turbines to create EU, So technically speaking the uraniums cells do create EU its just that the devs never really bothered explaining in detail how the nuclear reactor works "Inside".


    Also, ITS A STUPID GAME PEOPLE!, realism its often sacrificed to make room for more entertaining mechanics.


    Edit: And did this really needed a new thread? I don't think so.

    To answer without "It's Minecraft, it's not realistic, because you can handle 64 m^3 of stone in one hand", I would say:
    it has not to be realistic, it just has to be balanced. You produce as much energy as you want, but you have too cool the heat produced. "Your system" would make the same, except you could waste energy because not cooled. Is that better ?


    Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
    NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

    I have actually explored on how small a reactor can be, an I have found that yes, you can fit a plutonium based core into a 1x1x1 meter space. I base this on criticality experiments that used a plutonium core from an early implosion nuclear explosive device. The challenge will be getting the other components to fit, plus shielding. I was (and still am) planning to determine the thermal power in watts of our well behaved nukes and use that to get a handle on how many energy units are in a joule so a Bluetricity to EU converter can be made. I'll have to do some poking around to see if I can find some compact steam generators, turbines, and alternators (and their efficiencies) and find some good themal power functions for natural, reactor grade, and HE uranium and its many compounds.

    A Rock Raider trained as an Engineer, among other things.

    Quote from RockRaiderZulu

    ...so a Bluetricity to EU converter can be made...


    I invite you to stop for a second and forget about that idea. Something like that have been made in the past and didn't end at all well. Even talking to eloraam will not help since she's just going to say no either way. (Albeit ignoring all this you can still make it, but distribution, ergo leaving your hard drive, its a big nono)


    Edit: Never insisted in any of the sort. And stop using the word "Realistic" in your "Suggestions" if you don't want the discussion to go in that way.


    Edit2: @Below: You are welcomed.

    Ok, mister "I can't comprehend written English", let's discuss this then.

    Realism matters. Otherwise trees wood grow upside down and be made of obsidian, and windmills would work on fairy dust.


    Of cause, game can't be completely realistic, but in cases where it is possible to salvage realism without losing much in something else, it should be done.


    Reason for this, is because it is much easier for people to understand, work and like something, that they can apply their real life knowledge and experience. And to reproduce/imitate something from real life too.


    Nuclear reactor back in IC1 worked exactly as you say - it was supposed to be some complicated behind-the scene stuff going inside, so you only had to put uranium in and get eu out. It worked, because it was simple.


    But then, we actually get to look inside, and "suspension of disbelief" (google it) was strained, because parts inside was not working very much like we expect from reactors, but model still was simple enough to be bearable.


    But, problem with wrong metaphor is that it is getting worse, as we go in details. Alblaka can't make more complex model by adding mechanics from real reactors, so instead he had to use vents and reflectors, which he calls "magical" himself. Magic is good in Thaumcraft. I like thaumcraft, it is a great mod. But what is good in Thaumcraft is not good in IC, ok?


    Abstractions is ok, some mechanics from RL not being implemented is ok. But why have magic nuclear reactor when it's possible to have a reactor that has MORE in common with nuclear reactor than just needing uranium?


    I'm not sure if this way will be also more interesting, balanced etc gameplay-wise. And that is what I was hoping to discuss. But you had to go and purposely derail topic, even so you were specifically asked not to. Thank you!

    • Official Post
    Quote from baturinsky

    Realism matters. Otherwise trees wood grow upside down and be made of obsidian.

    Thats a good Suggestion for xCompWiz.

    Quote from baturinsky

    Reason for this, is because it is much easier for people to understand, work and like something, that they can apply their real life knowledge and experience. And to reproduce/imitate something from real life too.

    Are you working at a Nuclear Powerplant?



    And Nuclearreactors are not that unrealistic in IC². They are just like a Minigame.

    @Overreaction to FenixR.
    Um... The original topic was fine, but there is no point in changing stuff just to add realism. ESPECIALLY because Nuclear JUST had a rework...
    Duh.

    Haikus are poems

    They don't always make sense

    Potato

    Edited once, last by Nanomanz: Fixed FenixR's name being misspelled... Duh. ().

    So just to set a point this is the accurate number of peeps who care about realism in the minecraft community exept for Baturinsky:


    No, seriously ic2 is a mod with jetpacks that run on electricity and that electricity could just be pixie dust flowing trough pipes known as wires, nobody cares because the works and is fun to play.
    Maybe minecraft contains This "Starter buket 'O realism" like you said but it's still mixed with magic Hayoish invisible dwarves, mysteries and other random stuff like kamikaze bush monsters.
    Minecraft can contain that magic Hayo, it's part of it's base idea of the game.
    Except if it's ee2, that's so OP the fun turns into boredom in a few hours.
    Realism isn't realism in minecraft.

    Quote from baturinsky

    But, problem with wrong metaphor is that it is getting worse, as we go in details. Alblaka can't make more complex model by adding mechanics from real reactors, so instead he had to use vents and reflectors, which he calls "magical" himself. Magic is good in Thaumcraft. I like thaumcraft, it is a great mod. But what is good in Thaumcraft is not good in IC, ok?

    Did you understand that "magic" can be used as "hayoish" ? They are not rally, but Alblaka's company want to make us believe it. You know what's an add ? you'll see the same type of word.


    Seriously, this was ironic, since Alblaka denied all Magic-workings system (Brewing Potion system, Enchanting, for example)


    Soon with Molten Salt Reactors, right ? :D
    NERF THA FUSION REACTOR!

    Now dont get me wrong realism is good but realism for the sake of realism is bad in a game. It has to benefit the game in another way than just realism.



    All the nuclear reactor needs now is some rebalancing of the components. We got alot of them but only a few are used. Largely because alot of those components are almost useless. Cooling cells for instance only store a little bit of heat which isnt enough to make proper mkII+ designs.

    May be I just use wrong word... I'm not meaning "realism" like in non-fiction. I mean realism like SF, but not fantasy. But I don't know right word for it. "Not magic", may be? Jet packs are SF. Teleporters are SF. Eutricicty... well, it's close enough and fun, so I like it.


    But uranium doing something completely different than uranium.. It's like macerators producing energy or jetpack digging soil. And it's not mhard to fix - just move eu production from uranium to vents.


    I think only other as annoyingly "magic" thing in IC2 is watermill that produce energy from stationary water.

    Quote from baturinsky

    May be I just use wrong word... I'm not meaning "realism" like in non-fiction. I mean realism like SF, but not fantasy. But I don't know right word for it. "Not magic", may be? Jet packs are SF. Teleporters are SF. Eutricicty... well, it's close enough and fun, so I like it.


    But uranium doing something completely different than uranium.. It's like macerators producing energy or jetpack digging soil. And it's not mhard to fix - just move eu production from uranium to vents.


    I think only other as annoyingly "magic" thing in IC2 is watermill that produce energy from stationary water.


    But the system is working perfectly and we already had a major reactor revamp just now!
    They should have it called "Hayoium" so peeps like you wouldn't complain about it.
    And by the way since when do vents produce energy?

    Something happens when you place the uranium in the reactor, because without uranium that something doesn't happen PERIOD, its a nuclear reactor so working in any other way its stupid (Or at the very least it would not be a stupid nuclear reactor in the first place, and don't bother with the part that you can use other radioactive stuff [In case you actually can of course], because the only "Nuclear" material in Ic2 its uranium). Saying that uranium produce energy its slightly accurate, because without it nothing would be produced (Although when you start looking at the details its where it shows thats its actually the heat from the uranium that produces the energy).


    What is that something that happens when you place a Uranium in the reactor? In minecraft its anyones guess to determine what happens inside it until al suddenly decides to make an essay explaining how the nuclear reactor (in minecraft) works in detail... In my head, the Nuclear planner its only half of whats happening in the nuclear reactor, the other half happens somewhere hidden inside the nuclear reactor working like "Magic".


    And please, there are two types of magic in game logic:


    There is "Ohhhh Magiiiicc" which is under the realm of Harry Potter and shit with wands and all that.


    And then there is "Magic" in which something simply works and you don't have a good explanation or reason as to why its working. An example of this is the BC Quarry, out of fucking nowhere it appears a lot of cranes and drills and metal tubes and shit that drills blocks below it and then it "Magically" appears in the original quarry block you placed. See you know there is a logic to all of it, and its quite possible for it to happen, but you can really explain how it happens. (Especially the part in which all of those cranes and drills and metal tubes and shit appears from a small block)


    And rick, forget anything you knew about the old nuclear reactors, since al effort was exactly to make it completely different from the old layouts of nuclear reactors so they don't all look like the same or worked remotely the same.

    One thing most people forgot:
    Heat IS Energy...
    Heat = The movement of particles
    Energy = The movement of particles


    It gets more complicated with Electricity, which is the flow of Electrons, but basically, Heat = Energy


    (And, absolute zero [No energy at ALL] has zero energy in the system)

    Haikus are poems

    They don't always make sense

    Potato

    Quote from FenixR

    And rick, forget anything you knew about the old nuclear reactors, since al effort was exactly to make it completely different from the old layouts of nuclear reactors so they don't all look like the same or worked remotely the same.

    Current reactor designs are almost completely made up of overclocked vents and component coolers and maybe some heat exchangers. Almost no other component is used. This is actualy exactly the same as the old system which we dont want. We want every component to have a good place.

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    But the system is working perfectly and we already had a major reactor revamp just now!

    System is still buggy and not-quite balanced. So it's still time to do some alterations. I realize it's very unlikely, though.

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    They should have it called "Hayoium" so peeps like you wouldn't complain about it.

    Yes.

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    And by the way since when do vents produce energy?

    Right therm is "coolant". As wiki says, it's a thing that remove heat from the nuclear reactor core and transfer it to electrical generators and the environment.
    "Vents" is a therm that was probably invented to separate them from coolant cells.


    We can assume that there is an integrated electrical generator in reactor, that can work with expensive non-liquid coolants ("vents"), and there are water coolant cells that we have to somehow transfer to electrical generators (geothermals) and back.

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    There is "Ohhhh Magiiiicc" which is under the realm of Harry Potter and shit with wands and all that.




    And then there is "Magic" in which something simply works and you don't
    have a good explanation or reason as to why its working.

    This is what I was trying to say (if I understand you right). IC1 reactor is your second type of magic. It was a simple block, and everyone could assume that there is something nuclear-reactor-y happening inside, making energy from uranium. But when we had to look "under the cover" and see that what goes inside is not like any real or even theoretical reactor, it became more like Potter-ish magic.

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    Heat IS Energy...


    Heat = The movement of particles


    Energy = The movement of particles

    There are many types of energy - heat, electricity, kinetic energy, potential energy., etc. Generators are converting from some other type energy to electrical. Wind and (supposedly) water mills convert from kinetic energy.


    In nuclear reactors (those used for power generation and not experiments and such), nuclear energy is converted to thermal energy, and then thermal energy is converted to electricity or just used for heating (in form of hot water in radiators). From wiki - "a cooling system removes heat from the reactor core and transports it to another area of the plant, where the thermal energy can be harnessed to produce electricity or to do other useful work". But, in IC2 cooling system is just destroying thermal energy. So, "reactor minigame" has about as much to do with reactors as sudoku (very slight hyperbole here).

    Quote from RockRaiderZulu

    implosion nuclear explosive device.

    I love how you decided not to say "nuke".

    Age: 16. Favourite school subject: Physics/Chemistry.


    The IC2 forums could really use a lot more of [REDACTED], [DATA EXPUNGED] and ████████.


    I'm in a so called "after-school". It's freaking fantastic and nowhere near as boring as normal school!