[GregTech-5][1.7.10-FORGE-1355+][Unofficial but approved Port][Stable] Even GT5 Experimental is slowly getting stable.

So, all machines will produce pollution, even being electric?
That's doesn't make sense to me...
I think that the generators could be heavy polluters, but machines should be clean. That would encourage
generation and consumption on different places, and the use of power lines.

One thing I was thinking, is how would be to make my generators on the nether: LHE arrays, turbines etc...
They would charge crystals, that would be sent by Thaumcraft mirrors to my house on overworld, and inputed on a big battery buffer.
Empty crystals would be outputted back to nether to recharge, using golems, of course, because they are cool.
Not so practical, but seems very fun in theory.

Quote from MauveCloud

I have some thoughts about pollution:
1. I agree that higher-tier machines should produce less pollution, but it might make sense for them to be more susceptible to it, since they operate faster and presumably have more intricate moving parts.

Runs a bit tangent to the design: I want to promote upgrading. I'm not sure I see a benefit.

Quote from MauveCloud

I have some thoughts about pollution:
2. Would confinement of the machines affect the pollution, encouraging base designs that are more open to allow the pollution to dissipate?

Runs against the design. I don't want to implement any measure that allows you to mitigate pollution other than fixing the underlying problem. Also: I probably couldn't code that easily.

Quote from MauveCloud

I have some thoughts about pollution:
3. I'm concerned that instead of encouraging people to progress toward fission/fusion, the pollution mechanic might encourage using power generation from other mods instead (e.g. IC2 semifluid generators, Railcraft steam turbines), since as you mentioned it might not be possible to make non-GT generators cause pollution.

100% agree. I'm hoping I can easily make other mods generate pollution even if I can't make them penalized from it. This is in fact why I make the pollution affect GT machines negatively. No matter where you get your power from, you still need to use those GT machines.

Quote from MauveCloud

I have some thoughts about pollution:
4. I presume the pollution caused by multiblocks would be controlled by the tier of the muffler hatch.

I didn't even think of this and its a fantastic idea.

Quote from Drawfox

So, all machines will produce pollution, even being electric?
That's doesn't make sense to me...
I think that the generators could be heavy polluters, but machines should be clean. That would encourage
generation and consumption on different places, and the use of power lines.

Yes, yes, Realism. I've talked about realism before! Realism always takes a second seat to gameplay design and streamlining.

Handwavium: machines with moving parts use lubricants that eventually dissipate/get dirty, and generate fumes that contribute to pollution. Satisfied? :p

Kidding aside: I'm not ruling out picking-and-choosing which machines can conceivably generating pollution. A macerator sorta/kinda makes sense. A chemical reactor? Maybe. A centrifuge? Not really.

Well, yes, I understand that certain things are better to not to do realistic, I just didn't consider other kinds of pollution, like stone and ore dust, metal residues, etc...
Now makes a little more sense.

One thought: What you think about Ore Washer, Cutting Machine and other water using machines, producing dirty water? So it could be filtered and used again?
I know it would be a little more complicated - as some machines would need a output tank, and different from multiblocks, they don't void excess fluid - but I think that this could be kinda good to finite water users...

Maybe It's not a thing to do now, but to consider to implement later;
I don't know Blood plans to this mod, But I would interesting if all high level machines ( >EV ) had multiblock versions (we already have a Smelter as a furnace alternative), So this output would be easy to do.

And while I didn't wanted to go off-topic, I really want to say that I dislike the idea of the need of a Processing Array, for things like the fusion reactor.
Don't get wrong, Blood's idea great, but to mitigate another problem: the higher's tier EU consuption, forcing the lv machines spam.

End game I don't really wanted to produce tons of LV centrifuges to put inside a multiblock.
I think that would be way better to have a Multiblock (maybe upgradeable?) version, like the Smelter - that would be way more interesting.
As that seems more applicable to the Fusion Process than anything else, I think that just new Multiblock Centrifuge and electrolyzer would end that problem.

I know that my idea isn't too different from crafting a few Processing arrays, It's just I'm tired of making XXX lv pumps and motors using bronze and tin. Higher tiers materials could have even more use that way.

Quote from Drawfox

It's just I'm tired of making XXX lv pumps and motors

Use AE2. There are no place (and need) for manual crafting in mid and late game.

we need a new electric crafting table with all the electric tools we have now and a bronze age would be nice as well

What's the word on the LHE output? Is a nerf inbound or am I safe to make a build assuming the current behavior is intended?

Quote from Sapient

Use AE2. There are no place (and need) for manual crafting in mid and late game.

Even so, I still will be making tons of LV machines at the endgame, while I will not touch 90% of the >MV ones;

Quote from Drawfox

still will be making tons of LV machines at the endgame

I think the only way to change it - make machines of all tiers same efficient. Or make it configurable at least.

Quote from Drawfox

One thought: What you think about Ore Washer, Cutting Machine and other water using machines, producing dirty water? So it could be filtered and used again?
I know it would be a little more complicated - as some machines would need a output tank, and different from multiblocks, they don't void excess fluid - but I think that this could be kinda good to finite water users...

Honestly, I think its a good idea. I'm just not sure how many people would use it, and I'm not sure whether the machines could easily support two tanks (input/output). Ends may not justify the means.

Quote from Drawfox

I don't know Blood plans to this mod, But I would interesting if all high level machines ( >EV ) had multiblock versions (we already have a Smelter as a furnace alternative), So this output would be easy to do.

I like this idea for streamlining reasons. At a general level, all the machines should sorta follow the same schema.

Quote from Drawfox

And while I didn't wanted to go off-topic, I really want to say that I dislike the idea of the need of a Processing Array, for things like the fusion reactor.
Don't get wrong, Blood's idea great, but to mitigate another problem: the higher's tier EU consuption, forcing the lv machines spam.

End game I don't really wanted to produce tons of LV centrifuges to put inside a multiblock.

Anyone who has tolerated one of my rants on the subject (all none of you) will recognize this as one of my pet peeves with GT5. It defies a critical part of fundamental game design: you can't punish a player for upgrading, and you can't confuse upgrading with overclocking.

When we "upgrade" our machinery in GT with better materials, all we're really doing is overclocking them. With the exception of the macerator, which has a legitimate upgrade scheme.

For the rest, you're getting more speed at the cost of way more power. Its silly. Overclocking should be available from day 1, and upgrades should be a seperate notion altogether.

My opinion? All machines should do "better", one way or the other, as you progress. If that means an EV centrifuge should produce 8 tiny dusts instead of 1, so be it.

Quote from willis936

What's the word on the LHE output? Is a nerf inbound or am I safe to make a build assuming the current behavior is intended?

Not sure.

Quote from Pyure

When we "upgrade" our machinery in GT with better materials, all we're really doing is overclocking them. With the exception of the macerator, which has a legitimate upgrade scheme.

Technically, there is another exception: recipes that require a specific voltage. I think this mainly applies to the forming press, laser engraver, assembling machine, electrolyzer, extruder, and fluid extractor, though. Oh, and there's the higher chance of returning materials for the disassembler. However, I'll agree that other machines currently offer no incentive to build the higher tiers beyond the faster processing (and possibly less pollution once that gets implemented). Also, the macerator upgrade scheme is a bit limited, since there isn't much incentive to building at tiers other than LV and HV. (MV has no additional outputs; when recovering raw materials from machines, the arc furnace tends to be more attractive; and the stone/netherrack/etc. dust that ore blocks can give as the third macerator output can easily be obtained as primary outputs when macerating stone-type materials directly)

Quote from MauveCloud

Technically, there is another exception: recipes that require a specific voltage. I think this mainly applies to the forming press, laser engraver, assembling machine, electrolyzer, extruder, and fluid extractor, though. Oh, and there's the higher chance of returning materials for the disassembler. However, I'll agree that other machines currently offer no incentive to build the higher tiers beyond the faster processing (and possibly less pollution once that gets implemented). Also, the macerator upgrade scheme is a bit limited, since there isn't much incentive to building at tiers other than LV and HV. (MV has no additional outputs; when recovering raw materials from machines, the arc furnace tends to be more attractive; and the stone/netherrack/etc. dust that ore blocks can give as the third macerator output can easily be obtained as primary outputs when macerating stone-type materials directly)

Fair point

Quote from MauveCloud

Technically, there is another exception: recipes that require a specific voltage. I think this mainly applies to the forming press, laser engraver, assembling machine, electrolyzer, extruder, and fluid extractor, though. Oh, and there's the higher chance of returning materials for the disassembler. However, I'll agree that other machines currently offer no incentive to build the higher tiers beyond the faster processing (and possibly less pollution once that gets implemented). Also, the macerator upgrade scheme is a bit limited, since there isn't much incentive to building at tiers other than LV and HV. (MV has no additional outputs; when recovering raw materials from machines, the arc furnace tends to be more attractive; and the stone/netherrack/etc. dust that ore blocks can give as the third macerator output can easily be obtained as primary outputs when macerating stone-type materials directly)

GT5 Is great, but there's a thing I miss from the GT4: We progressed creating new machines, instead of more powerful versions of the same that we already have.
I have a chest with lots of old machines, like lv and mv assembler, mv forming press and laser engraver.
It's good to have this option to upgrade to a better version, but I don't like this idea of building a machine to use a few times until it becomes totally disposable.

Quote from Drawfox

GT5 Is great, but there's a thing I miss from the GT4: We progressed creating new machines, instead of more powerful versions of the same that we already have.
I have a chest with lots of old machines, like lv and mv assembler, mv forming press and laser engraver.
It's good to have this option to upgrade to a better version, but I don't like this idea of building a machine to use a few times until it becomes totally disposable.

I prefer GT5 because of how much more there is to the logistics. The progress isn't spoon fed to you. You have a need to make more energy (because that's what's fun, right?) to process more materials and make bigger things to make more energy. You need to do much more complex designs in GT5 to get that power.

With AE2 literally hundreds of machines get made, each with their own interface. One for tiny pipes, one for energy xtals, fluid extractor/solidifier combos for plates, nitrogen distillation for gunpowder for ITNT, etc. Even though the average machine gets used rarely they all have their use.

If GT5's lack of linearity bugs you don't even look at GT6. There's no straight path in materials. What you get day 1 is what you'll use on day 100. You'll be able to utilize the materials more effectively and get more of them but at tier 1 you have to choose between bronze, lead, and about 20 other metals. How you get your machines to do the things you want to is up to the materials you choose. There's no set breakpoint.

Quote from SpwnX

What about 4 types of pollution then? Those are all chunk based too.
Water, soil, air and radiation.

Each of them produced by machine types (and they can produce multiple types should it apply) and each of them having its negative effects on some other machines and environment.

Air pollution would slowly dissipate on its own, water and soil pollution would also dissipate on its own, but very very slowly, requiring active combat or it will reach critical levels fast.
Radiation pollution would also very very very very slowly dissipate on its own and there is little active combat to be done, if an area is radiated it is because someone was an idiot and blew a reactor and/or leaked waste, simple.

Machines with moving parts would pollute water and soil due the residues produced on the processing of stuff (macerators, extractors, compressors et cetera).
Machines that burns stuff would pollute air.
Chemical reactor, ore washing and Tcentrifuges would heavily pollute water, soil and air due the heavy chemical processing.

I'm overcomplicating? Yes. Do I care? Not really, I just wanted to show my idea. If nobody likes it, it will fade just like all the others.

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From a game design perspective, I seriously just look at that and say "can I combine it into one pollution concept? Yes, I can" :p

I love the idea of multiple pollution types, the issue is one of mechanics. There's no fundamental difference between them other than dissipation rates, and it raises all kinds of questions of "why does air pollution affect my macerator half as much as soil pollution, that makes no sense" and I don't wanna deal with it :p

Quote from willis936

I prefer GT5 because of how much more there is to the logistics. The progress isn't spoon fed to you. You have a need to make more energy (because that's what's fun, right?) to process more materials and make bigger things to make more energy. You need to do much more complex designs in GT5 to get that power.

With AE2 literally hundreds of machines get made, each with their own interface. One for tiny pipes, one for energy xtals, fluid extractor/solidifier combos for plates, nitrogen distillation for gunpowder for ITNT, etc. Even though the average machine gets used rarely they all have their use.

If GT5's lack of linearity bugs you don't even look at GT6. There's no straight path in materials. What you get day 1 is what you'll use on day 100. You'll be able to utilize the materials more effectively and get more of them but at tier 1 you have to choose between bronze, lead, and about 20 other metals. How you get your machines to do the things you want to is up to the materials you choose. There's no set breakpoint.

Well, I didn't say I prefer GT4, it was about the only thing I liked better, comparing now. And I agree with you, the logistics are almost perfect on GT5.
And liked the ore veins too.
I think my problem is with the old machines, really. If I could disassemble manually by hand, 100% efficiency, I would be happy ( I mean, I'd assembled it. So i know how to disassemble it too).
But I understand that must be a balance thing
I'm happy that I have this option with the IV machine (paying 20.000.000eu to do it), I just have to get used to it...

Quote from SpwnX

(...)
I'm overcomplicating? Yes. Do I care? Not really, I just wanted to show my idea. If nobody likes it, it will fade just like all the others.

LOOK PYURE, REALISM! GET HIM!!!

I like the variety which we can destroy the environment, that would be fun.

I would love to see pollution like this in gregtech : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq8GYaSZHF4. I think it would be good model for every kind of pollution