Pyramids of Waste: The Lightbulb Conspiracy

1st Official Post

    This is a somewhat strange type of suggestion, perhaps. It is for IC2, yes; but more, it is for its' designer.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXt9HT50X1c


    If he is willing, I very much want Alblaka to watch this film. It is a film about planned obsolescence within the real world economy; about engineers who deliberately sabotage their work, in order to make products which arbitrarily fail, for the sake of selling more.


    The reason why this is relevant to IndustrialCraft, is because I have noticed more and more recently, that among a number of mod developers, there is an obsession with what they refer to as "balance," but which in reality, is an entirely arbitrary enforcement of defectiveness and scarcity. "Balance," is considered more important than creativity.


    With IC2, the wrench is a case in point. With ComputerCraft, it seems that dan200 has finally caved in to numerous demands for coal to be used as a fuel source for Turtles in 1.4, where previously they were fuelless.


    As an engineer, at least within this game, I do not believe in designing devices to fail. I use, as a staple power source, a hybrid geothermal generator which consists of a generator from IC2, and a Volcanite Amulet and Energy Condenser from Equivalent Exchange. I do this with complete belief in my own integrity; I do not believe that it is cheating, if I do not wish to be limited by arbitrary scarcity. I also do not play multiplayer, so nobody else has to be subjected to my own choice in this matter. I do not seek to dominate the perspectives of others, if balance is important to them. I only wish to maintain a scenario where my own choice, is given equal consideration; and I fear that I am approaching a scenario where it is not.


    I understand that I will receive opposition for making this post; I may even be banned from this forum for doing so. If that is the case, I accept it. If a single person here, and most hopefully, Alblaka himself, is able to hear my cry, then I will accept whatever happens to me as a consequence.

    "I" don't understand what is the meaning of this suggestion, other than make Alb watch 52:53 film.


    So I'm gonna ask you, "what is the point of making Alb watching this"?




    Btw I'm gonna watch this cuz I'm bored and I already read all my mangas at Mangafox/batoto
    Edit: english with german subs and a random part in catalan/valencianomedaigualestodolomismo? lulz
    Edit 2: ok ok, later they said that this dude is from Barcerlona, that explain why he doesnt want to buy another printer, now all makes sense :O
    Edit 3: btw is fun reading the titles of the related videos "Must See.. UFO Documentary 'Secret Access' FULL ", "Japan 8.9 earthquake caused by the U.S. Government with H.A.A.R.P.!!!!", " Lost Secrets of the Illuminati - HD Feature"

    Quote from petrus4

    [...]"balance," but which in reality, is an entirely arbitrary enforcement of defectiveness and scarcity.

    I read that as "balance, which in reality is balance". If you don't like requiring resources for maintenance, well... isn't that what creative mode is for?


    I'm with Alec on this one, I don't see your point. You like creative mode, go right ahead and play that way. It's your game, bro.

    Balance... Yes is an Artificial sense in a way, that its use in game developement to make sure that players just don't simple breeze through all of the stuff that where designed in a game.


    Imagine a megaman game where you got all the health upgrades and boss power since the start.
    A call of duty game where you simply cannot die.
    A diablo game where you start at max level with Ultra Epic Stuff.
    etc.


    Its the same here in minecraft, having great stuff doing their greatness without any artificial to deter them, means it will sooner or later make you bored out of your daylights because you will run out of something to do with it.


    Btw: This is NOT a suggestion, its more like a Jehovah witness knocking on our doors trying to convert us into his religion or belief or something

    Quote

    Btw: This is NOT a suggestion, its more like a Jehovah witness knocking on our doors trying to convert us into his religion or belief or something


    I'm going to have to agree, petrus what exactly is being suggested here? Are you saying that we should continue with IC2 development progression without any care for balance along the way?


    Also


    Quote

    I may even be banned from this forum for doing so. If that is the case, I accept it. If a single person here, and most hopefully, Alblaka himself, is able to hear my cry, then I will accept whatever happens to me as a consequence.


    Don't you think you might be overreacting just slightly? Nobody is getting banned, in all of my four-five months or so here I have only seen two non-spambot people get banned and that was for flaming and overall unnecessary attacks on people or things

    Is the answer to this question no?


    Quote

    Hey don't take it so hard. Ignorance is part of this generation it seems. -the wise words of XFmax-o-l

    • Official Post

    IC provides enough settings for you to make up your own game rules and sense of balance. There are even sub-mods permitting to mess with any of the pre-existing recipes. You can change costs, ratios, energy production, anything.
    With the default values, we strive to create a simple effort-reward system: The player works to obtain the necessary ressources and then is rewarded by achieving a goal, crafting some fun stuff and watching nukes explode.


    I agree with the posts above. In the world of video games, a developer usually does not implement "an entirely arbitrary enforcement of defectiveness and scarcity", but an intended difficulty bareer. There is barely anyone interested in playing a game which can't possibly go wrong. And for those who actually do, there's Creative mode.


    I can't exactly see the point in your 'suggestion'.

    Such conspiracy is not a matter to believe. It is a "fair" method to take money from consumer's pocket.
    The full story of Microsoft company has the same style. And not MS only.


    The main suggestion I see here is to avoid such things as breaking machines. Do not make things worse, than it can be.


    For your information Dan200 made Turtles demand fuel a) optional; b) any furnace compatible; c) way to use it clearly shown.

    • Official Post

    So you suggest, that we have to add more conspiracy to IC²? That's the only thing i understand about it.


    And in case of your very bad pictured "Balance": It's the only way to implement "the sense and the meaning of life" into a Game. And a Game without it, would be deathly boring (Yes, deathly).

    Quote from petrus4

    At least I didn't get banned, as a result of this. I am grateful for that.

    Why would you? Your "suggestion" violated none of the rules, but can you clear up what exactly you were trying to suggest? I don't actually see a suggestion here other than remove all balance from IC2 which I think would be a very stupid thing to do

    Is the answer to this question no?


    Quote

    Hey don't take it so hard. Ignorance is part of this generation it seems. -the wise words of XFmax-o-l

    Nice try ee2 user! so basically you want ic2 as unbalanced as ee2? Balance is dificulty of obtaining something (effort-result ratio). And that balance is, at least in my opinion, that what makes ic2 worth playing.

    Quote from karolk


    Nice try ee2 user! so basically you want ic2 as unbalanced as ee2? Balance is dificulty of obtaining something (effort-result ratio). And that balance is, at least in my opinion, that what makes ic2 worth playing.

    That's funny, I almost tacked onto the end of my most recent reply that IC2 will not become the next EE and remove all balance

    Is the answer to this question no?


    Quote

    Hey don't take it so hard. Ignorance is part of this generation it seems. -the wise words of XFmax-o-l

    This seems to be a simple misunderstanding on the OP's part. First off, Alblaka and other minecraft mod developers are not selling their mods for profit to an adhesive customer base, so there is no motivation to sabotage the mod's usefulness to the player. When the developers make changes to their mods that 'nerf' them, such as adding optional fuel usage to ComputerCraft Turtles, they are tweaking the ratio of risk vs reward in an attempt to find the sweet spot that most players would consider fun. That sweet spot tends to be similar to limitations in reality, as that is what people are used to and comfortable with.


    Developers of videogames have a special difficulty that real-life engineers don't: console access. In real life, the limitations of the laws of physics are hard-set, and engineers work to the best ability they can under those limitations. For developers creating a videogame, those limitations must be arbitrarily constructed. The OP is mistaking a decision to define the physical limits of the game universe as a decision to create a product that is intentionally underpowered. This is roughly equivalent to complaining that a microwave requires electricity to operate instead of exposure to sunlight, or that cars require gasoline fueled internal combustion engines to reach highway speeds instead of bicycle pedals. This is not a case of purposefully weak or ineffective designs, it is a case of redefined physical limitations.

    All what OP said is actually config releated.
    There is no need to "balance" anything, its much easier to add some options and let players to choose how they want to play.
    Possibly each player can make his own "balance" in the mod, but, i think, most of the players would play under default "conditions".