[Discoussion] The new UU Matter Recipes and how expensive Items should be compared to each other

  • This Thread is about the UUM Price of Items compared to each other, and mostly not about absolute Values. In case you wonder what happens with the old UUM Item, it will be usable as Amplifier to create UUM Fluid with it.


    1 Blob of UUM = 1000 Liters of UUM = 10 Million EU = 1.6 Million EU + 33.33 Scrap = 1.6 Million EU + 266.66 Random Items


    This means every Item needs to have at least the cost of 4 Liters of UUM, otherwise it would be possible to feed it back into the Recyler for a pointless but illogical infinite Scrap Loop. Here are a few basic Values, note that not only the UUM costs EU, but also the Assembling of the UUM into regular Matter needs EU, what I list next to it. So here finally the Values we had in the old UUM System:

    I don't say, your "insert whatever" is bad. I'm only showing ways for making it better.
    GregTech Website
    Patreon really helps me out. If you consider funding the development of GT, so I might be able to do it fulltime, why not?
    GregTech 6, the Main Thread, Bug Reports go here too.
    I'm also on #gt-dev on irc.esper.net, if you don't want to make a Forum account just to contact me.
    (I'm there almost every day, when I'm at my own computer. Yes you can drop bugs and suggestions there too)

  • 1. All ores should have a cost proportional to how often they can be encountered (take a world and do a simple MCEdit analysis to find it out), the most common of them costing 8 UUM liters.
    2. Iridium recipe should be deleted - iridium can perfectly be produced from the iridium ore.
    3. All mob loot (and osmium dust) should be buffed to use 10x more matter.
    4. All fairly common materials (that is, all others except cobblestone) should take 4-8 liters to produce at your choice.
    5. Cobble recipe can be deleted since you have an electric rock breaker.
    P.S. I've read your post twice and understood nothing. How am I now supposed to create items out of scrap and EU?

  • I've read your post twice and understood nothing. How am I now supposed to create items out of scrap and EU?


    The mass fab now produces Liquid UU-Matter, it is 10 million eu without scrap, and 1.66 million eu with scrap per bucket of UU. You move the liquid uu into a Replicator (I think), give the replicator a pattern, and energy, it will then take the liquid uu and begin assembling the item. To get patterns I believe you need to have one of the items you want to replicate, and put it in a scanner. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken with any of this.

  • This Thread is about the UUM Price of Items compared to each other, and mostly not about absolute Values.

    I thought this, and the Title "Discoussion" were enough to make it understandable. But to be more clear. We need better Values for UUMified Items.

    I don't say, your "insert whatever" is bad. I'm only showing ways for making it better.
    GregTech Website
    Patreon really helps me out. If you consider funding the development of GT, so I might be able to do it fulltime, why not?
    GregTech 6, the Main Thread, Bug Reports go here too.
    I'm also on #gt-dev on irc.esper.net, if you don't want to make a Forum account just to contact me.
    (I'm there almost every day, when I'm at my own computer. Yes you can drop bugs and suggestions there too)

  • Quote

    To get patterns I believe you need to have one of the items you want to replicate, and put it in a scanner.


    This would be hard since iridium can only obtained by UUM (correct me if I'm wrong :p).


    BTT:
    Since only Diamond and Iridium matters for me and the prices are equal to the 'vanilla' (7 UUM = 1 Iridium Ore | 9 UUM = 1 Diamond) i'm fine with that :)


    Quote

    We need better Values


    Define 'better'? More balanced in what point?

  • The Prices are the thing that is being discoussed here, so that we can change them. And things like Iridium will receive some kind of Blueprint findable in Villages or Dungeons.

    I don't say, your "insert whatever" is bad. I'm only showing ways for making it better.
    GregTech Website
    Patreon really helps me out. If you consider funding the development of GT, so I might be able to do it fulltime, why not?
    GregTech 6, the Main Thread, Bug Reports go here too.
    I'm also on #gt-dev on irc.esper.net, if you don't want to make a Forum account just to contact me.
    (I'm there almost every day, when I'm at my own computer. Yes you can drop bugs and suggestions there too)

  • Ok, here is the thing.


    It doesn't really matter how far you tweak, greatly increase or decrease the cost of UUM.
    As long i can drive a massfab with non-maintenance-energy it's only a matter of time (AFK-Time) on my server till i get what i want.

  • Ok, here is the thing.


    It doesn't really matter how far you tweak, greatly increase or decrease the cost of UUM.
    As long i can drive a massfab with non-maintenance-energy it's only a matter of time (AFK-Time) on my server till i get what i want.

    Sure, but non-maintenance-energy generates way too few energy to drive a massfab (even less for a matterfab) in a time worth afking.


    Iridium should be more expensive than diamond, considering its value to hightech stuff.
    Osmium value should be decreased or "osmiridium" stuff implemented, as it is pointless to make it for now.
    Iron, gold and silver should be cheaper, considering the extensive amount is required.


    Diamond : 9000 L
    Iridium : 10000 L
    Osmium : 14000 L
    Iron : 1500 L
    Gold : 1500 L
    Silver : 2000 L

  • Whatever the end values will be, make sure it'll be possible to configure each one separately from conf file (and to turn them off) :)
    Stuff needing pattern means you can't just make blaze rods if you haven't fed any to some of the new machines, right? Sort of like old EE2 system. If so then it's great :)



    As for prices, I'd say it HIGHLY depends on how easy it will be to get EU in the new IC2. I'd say figure out how much energy on average one can produce per chunk of materials with half-decent nuke setup (and other fuel sources if applicable) and go from there.


    In general I'd say price in UU should depend more on actual usage of the material than on rarity. Yeah, easy to say, hard to implement :) Perhaps get a few people to analyze their maps and count the amount of materials they've spent? Or better, build in a logging mechanism into IC2 that would do it automatically. Turned off by default, when turned on it generates a log file as one plays and perhaps even submits it to somewhere. Yes, I understand that most people that use IC2 also use other mods so the amount of materials will vary wildly, not to mention differences between server vs SSP but given enough time it should give pretty good idea. Of course that would mean the UU prices will be changing later down the line but I don't think that would be too big of an issue.

  • Wait, if the new UUM uses both a fabricator and blueprint-based assembler, can't you balance the cost of things like grass, lapis, and even diamond with relatively little UUM but expensive to craft and hard to find blueprints and energy-demanding assembling while making the metals (iridium included) be based on larger quantities of UUM?


    from the in-game logic,it at least just to represent the difference between materials that are complicated, having complex chemical structure and energetic molecular bonds (grass, logs, rubber, gunpowder) the materials that are heavy (stone, obsidian, gravel) and the various mixes (Diamond being extremely complicated, iridium being extremely heavy, coal being slightly heavy but very complicated, clay being slightly complicated and a bit heavy, etc)


    Gameplay-wise, this also follows a progression: once you start making UUM, you can make things that require small amounts of liquid, have easy-to-get templates, and easy assembly (things like stone, sand, dirt), you can then get more complicated blueprints (giving you things like clay, flint, glass, grass, logs, rubber, water), get even more UUM and some blueprints (getting you obsidian, copper, tin), some more blueprints (for coal, redstone, lava [needs to require a lot of energy to assemble]), a lot more UUM (for iron, gold) even more complex blueprint for diamond (even in a vanilla world, if you get a fortune 3 pickaxe, after a while you can get enough diamonds to last for a lifetime), and a truly ludicrous amounts of UUM to get iridium.


    (this is, of course, assuming blueprints have to be found and further crafted to be used in an assembler, assuming it's a machine that require blueprints, energy, and liquid UUM to craft items)

  • Greg, what will happen with your matterfab? Will you remove it?

    I will remove it, but I will add a Multiblock Mass Fabricator, which will be named Matter Fabricator, because as of now you need 128 Massfabs per Fusion Reactor and its easy to guess, that this will cause much Lag compared to just one Multiblock (5x5x5 in case of the Matterfab, btw).

    Stuff needing pattern means you can't just make blaze rods if you haven't fed any to some of the new machines, right? Sort of like old EE2 system. If so then it's great :)

    Yes, you need to scan the Items before getting the Blueprint, and if there is no scannable Version of said Item (Iridium/Osmium), then there will be a Blueprint for it in Dungeon Chests or similar.

    As for prices, I'd say it HIGHLY depends on how easy it will be to get EU in the new IC2. I'd say figure out how much energy on average one can produce per chunk of materials with half-decent nuke setup (and other fuel sources if applicable) and go from there.

    This Discoussion is not only about the Amount of UUM, the Replicator needs UU-Matter AND Energy, so that for example a Diamond needs tons of EU to assemble it properly, but only very few UUM, due to just being Carbon.

    I don't say, your "insert whatever" is bad. I'm only showing ways for making it better.
    GregTech Website
    Patreon really helps me out. If you consider funding the development of GT, so I might be able to do it fulltime, why not?
    GregTech 6, the Main Thread, Bug Reports go here too.
    I'm also on #gt-dev on irc.esper.net, if you don't want to make a Forum account just to contact me.
    (I'm there almost every day, when I'm at my own computer. Yes you can drop bugs and suggestions there too)

  • I'd rather it be based off chemical composition, but some things in Minecraft don't have straight forward, realistic elemental counterparts. And in some cases, rare materials would have the same chemical rarity as common materials (see diamonds, to coal, and wood, for example)...

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.

  • @above : That would be cool.
    For example, if you analyze GT sheldonite, it would give ya the blueprints for Platinum, Iridium, Osmium, Nickel and Sulfur.
    Analyze some stuff that theorically contain a certain element to obtain the blueprint for it.

  • @above : That would be cool.
    For example, if you analyze GT sheldonite, it would give ya the blueprints for Platinum, Iridium, Osmium, Nickel and Sulfur.
    Analyze some stuff that theorically contain a certain element to obtain the blueprint for it.


    I'd imagine that heavy elements (such as Iridium and even Uranium) would require substantial UUM to fabricate...


    Greg does make an interesting point about how diamonds would require more EU, but less UUM since they are Carbon-based...


    I do like the idea of creating a system of atomic research to analyze and interpret the structure of matter in a Minecraft world. For example, in order to fabricate Diamonds, you'd either need to have found a diamond, or an emerald, or something else with a 'Crystal Lattice' structure in order to understand how to assemble Carbon together in that fashion. Replicating and Understanding Carbon would be easy, as you would sacrifice coal, or wood, or even Sugarcane into a Replicator or Analysis machine to be broken down and weighed in terms of content. (Actually, the scientific machine that does this in real life is, afaik, called a Mass Spectrometer. They are around $100k to $500k USD in cost, but are very useful in scientific research).


    This could be used as an interesting research mechanic in order to break down and understand matter, from which you could then reforge or replicate later with EU and UUM. That way, some elements like Hydrogen and Oxygen could be easy to research, but getting to their isotope counterparts like Deuterium and Tritium would require 'more knowledge' of how isotopes and nuclear decay/reactions at place. Thus, in some aspects the 'advance' element would be gated by the research system, as you would lack the understanding of what those elements are, how their atomic aspects function towards their stability, and how to properly take advantage of them..


    (Which, in a philosophical sense, makes plenty of sense since 'pitchblende' has been on the Earth for as long as there has been an Earth, but it was never taken advantage of until the last century due to atomic physics...)

    Would anyone like to try a Slowpoke Tail?! Only 1 Million Yen!


    Quote

    this isn't about arrogance or ego, I have a block that I put a lot of freaking work into


    Every Mod Author, in existence. And yet, you STILL say otherwise.